The Old Testament Concept of God

[christianwarrior]

Hi everyone,

Here are some links to other people who will be talking about the Trinity in the Old Testament. First link by someone who runs a YouTube Channel called InspiringPhilosophy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNt5NKSse0Y He (unlike me) knows Hebrew and goes through the 3 persons of the Trinity being in the OT, YAHWEH (God the Father), the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit), and the Angel of the LORD (The Word/Logos/Jesus Christ/God the Son). Now the Angel of the LORD claim is most contentious so be sure to watch the entire video Tektonics article about the Angel of the LORD: http://www.tektonics.org/guest/aotl.html Finally Answering Islam article talking about Daniel 7 how the Ancient of Days (God the Father) gives authority to the Messiah (Jesus) and the Messiah receiving worship: http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/ ... ofman.html

I hope the resources are useful to you all. God bless.

[B. W.]

Here are two illustrations on the nature if the Trinity of the Godhead from RickD and myself form another thread post on this forum which serve to help grasp what is meant by the Orthodox doctrine of the Divine Trinty or the OT Concept of God. God and Science Thread Link to quotes below

As with any illustration, these are weak but to do help the mind at least begin to grasp it.

From Rick...

I know all analogies we use to compare to the Trinity fail in some place, but I always liked this one:

...Understanding the Trinity

As you stand by the shore of the sea, as far as your eyes can see and beyond is the mighty ocean. It is an entity of enormous power, sometimes as still and calm as a tropical pool, sometimes rising in fury to smash those who dare to intrude upon it.

As you observe, a swell of water rises offshore. The wave gathers momentum as it approaches the beach. Although it remains a part of the sea it has a life of its own. Then, after crashing high upon the shore, it returns to the sea from which it came. As a wave it had its own identity, but never was it separate from the sea.

Just as Jesus came from the Father and returned to the Father, He had - and still has - an identity of His own. The wave was never separate from the sea, just as Jesus was never separate from the Father. Just as the wave exemplifies the personality of the sea, Jesus is the personality of God the Father. If you have seen a wave, then you must have seen the sea. If you have seen Jesus, you have also seen the Father.

And as you stand beside the shore, you become aware of another part of the sea. The salt air which invigorates you is also an integral part of the sea. It, too, has a separate existence from the sea, but is very much one with it. It penetrates everywhere and everything within miles of the coastline. As you approach the beach it is the signal that the sea is not far away. In fact, it is the sea - reaching out to you through the air.

This is exactly what the Holy Spirit does. Just as the salt air draws men to the sea, the Holy Spirit draws men to the Father through Jesus Christ. The Spirit, although having a separate existence, is not separate from the Godhead.

I have used this simple example for several years now. People seem to be able to understand better the concept of the Trinity through the parallel relationship of sea and wave and salt air representing the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit than by any of my previous attempts to explain it.

Children, especially, are quick to grasp the meaning of this "parable" approach to the mystery of the Trinity. I suppose we older and more sophisticated adults should not be totally surprised at this. After all, the Bible tells us that "a little child shall lead them."

The Illustration I gave...

Lastly, Storyteller, you asked about the Trinity of the Godhead. There is no easy answer on this and the best I can do is to give you a simple illustration from nature so you can grasp it a bit better. However weak this illustration is, may the Lord help you and others begin to understand the Godhead Trinity better:

Take an orange and cut it in half and what do you see?

You have Orange pealing, Orange fruit, and Orange juice. Each is still all Orange and the Orange is one yet it has three: Orange pealing, Orange fruit, and Orange juice that make the Orange one. Correct?

You cannot separate the essence and nature Orange from its pealing, its fruit, or its juice - it is all Orange. However, the Orange pealing, Orange fruit, and Orange juice has it own personalty in that one is that of covering/pealing, the Fruit, and the juice. Each are coequal to each other, yet, each has its own personality. Think of it as the Orange sending forth its fruit to do a task and then returning and you might begin to grasp the reality of the Christian Orthodox doctrine of the Trinity through this weak example from an Orange.

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[B. W.]

Moving this up again...so folks can from the beginning concerning the Angel of Lord

First page: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=33317

[B. W.]

Haven't wrote more for this thread but the recent comments on another caused me to realize that I should post a simple example on comprehending the Trinity of God's Nature.

God is one, yet three, well this confuses people. Is there an example that help our human minds wrap around this?

Romans 1:20 mentions that there are things on earth clearly seen that give evidence for God's Tri-natured oneness, after all, God mentions from the scriptures there is none like him and his oneness is like no other.

So for the record, I am posting my orange example so folks who read this thread will gain insight and some understanding from earth's nature what Romans 1:20 mentions about God's creation help reveal God's nature.

Example of the Orange

Take a Navel Orange. Cut it in half, take one half and peal it, take its fruit out, with the other squeeze the juice into into a clear glass. hat do you see?

The peel, fruit, and juice is all 100 percent orange, yet, differing personalities of fruit are contained in that oneness of an Navel Orange. The peeling holds all together, provides protection, and energy. Likewise the fruit, creates seed, provides protection and nourishes the seed to grow, and shares the same energy within the juice and peel. The Juice likewise provides protection,nourishment, and energy to the whole orange. The three are in reality are one and the same, yet, each has is own personality/function.

Using this example, the peel represents the Father, the fruit the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the Juice. Each have the same essence of wisdom, knowledge, understanding, power, etc yet different personalities according to functioning of wisdom, knowledge, understanding, power, etc to nourish and keep life alive.

The Father is the source of all wisdom, knowledge, understanding, power, etc to keep life alive. The Son carries out and does the works wisdom, knowledge, understanding, power, etc that makes growth. The Holy Spirit, empowers the wisdom, knowledge, understanding, power, etc that provides health in growth, etc.

We all need Orange juice... does the body good

Nothing like a slice of orange and all the nutrients!

The peel adds a little zest to flavor life as well as sweetens chocolate too!

Have a Blessed day All


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[B. W.]

Here are a few verses speaking on the Holy Spirit I would like to post:

Psalms 139:7 The Holy Spirit is omnipresent

1 Co 2:10-11 The Holy Spirit omniscient

Gen 1:2 The Holy Spirit omnipotent

Heb 9:14 The Holy Spirit is eternal

Acts 5:3-4 The Holy Spirit is called God

Mat 28:19-20 is equal with father and son

Rom 8:27 The Holy Spirit has own mind

1 Co 2:10 is able to search the human mind

1 Co 12:11 The Holy Spirit has own will

Acts 16:6,7,10c The Holy Spirit forbids and leads

Acts 8:29 The Holy Spirit speaks

Rom 15:30 He Loves

Eph 4:30 The Holy Spirit can be grieved

Rom 8:26 The Holy Spirit helps prayers
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[ganaa]

Almost 2 or 3 years ago, I start doing my little researches on OT (Old Testament) & purpose is; try to find out relationships between ancient Hebrew and Ancient Mongolian histories. Especially I worked on Genesis book and including with other research books which related to OT.
We Mongolians all believe the Mongol nation was created from one family & our forefather is Borte Chono (Gray Wolf) & foremother is Goo Maral (Beauty Deer).
If seeing from historical pages which related to Mongolian empire, this family Borte Chono & Goo Maral came into Mongolia on AC758 year. Then passed 10 years, they had son who called Batu-Chigaan (Solid white or Ultimate white, by modern Mongolian language this name is called "Bat-Tsagaan").
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secre ... he_Mongols
Batu-Chigaan was a father of Tamacha, Tamacha is father of Horichar Mergen then Uujim Buural, Sali-Hachu, Ikh-Nuden, Shinsochi, Harchu, Borjigidai mergen, Torgoljin bayan, Dobu mergen, Alungua (queen, a mother of Bodanchir munkhag), Bodanchir munhag is son of Alangua (his father was lightning man of Great Sky & not a Man in flesh as Mongolian secret story says), then Habich baatar, Menen tudun, Hahci hulug, Haidu, Baishinhor Dogshin, Tumbinai Setsen, King Habul (he ruled all Mongolian provinces), Bartan baatar (2nd son of King Habul), Esuhei Baatar (father of Temuujin, as known as Great Chingis (Genghis) Khaan), then Temuujin.
When Temuujin (Genghis Khaan - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan) was 9 years old boy, his father Esuhei baatar was poisoned & died after met with leaders of Tatar aimag (province) in year1171. I would not talk about whole story of Genghis Khaan,..
My point is; Where did Mongolian forefather with his wife come from? I have some researches which related to their origin ,..
After killed Temujin's (Genghis Khaan) father, best friend of his father who is Tooril Khan, (some scientists thought him, he was Prester John) helped to Temuujin to re-united his Father territory.
Who was the Tooril Khan? He was a Christian (Nestorian - Church of the East) and His clan name is Kirat "Keri:at" ("Kirjath", Hereid in Mongolia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Mongolia).
I cannot explain everything what I have in this little field, so just jumped to the main thing.
...
Noah has 3 sons, Shem, Ham, Japheth. Shem has 5 sons. (Genesis 10:21-31). We can see from these versus 2 things.
1. Eber has 2 sons who are Peleg & Joktan. Abram was grand & grand son of Peleg.
2. Joktan was forefather of nations who live from Mesha (Eastern side of Caspian sea) to Sefar (Siberia).
This is reason why ancient Mongolians knew the GOD. However I would like to explain much things which related to ancient Mongolian history & main reason of Mongolian great empire but maybe you guys will not interest about it so stop it now.
Tooril khan was the best friend of father of Genghis Khaan. He was Christian of Nestorian stream & king of Kirjath provinces.
If you'll find the words Kirjath from bible, you can see many words which related to this... http://biblehub.com/topical/k/kirjath.htm
before stop I am talking, I'd like to say one thing. Bible is the great source for learning everything. Scripture says in 2Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

I dream, to publish some research materials which related to origin of Mongolians and detailed explanation of truth in one day.

sorry for typing things in another field.

[B. W.]

We have been discussing the Trinity many times on this forum.

This Thread's subject: The Old Testament concept of God...

...is about how Trinitarian the the language of the OT really is.

There is a concept in Hebrew grammar of the Majestic Plural Noun verses a normal Collective plural nouns. The Hebrew word often used in the Ot for God is Elohim used around 2,600 times in about 2,247 verses in the MT (Masoretic Text) of the OT.

Elohim is a Plural collective noun. In Exodus 32:1,23 (gods not god), Deut 4:7,28 (gods not god) and Ex 23:33 Elohim is translated as a plural noun as gods... in the English text.

Let me spare you a deep grammar study singular noun modifiers as I will lose half the folks reading this.

Basically, the Hebraic thought came up with the idea of a Majestic Plural noun when referring to God. I am not going to get in the controversies if Majestic Plural nouns are really still Collective Plural nouns here. Most places of study adhere to the Majestic Plural noun when Elohim is applied to God so as keep intact the Shema - Deut 6:4.

The Majestic Plural Noun if you look at is still a plural noun. It expresses that God (Deut 6:4) is The Majestic Plural One. In other words, he is unlike anything we can fully grasp - that there is truly none like him whom we can compare.

This thread I wrote deals with that there is truly none like him whom we can compare because the OT mention the Majestic Plural Nature of God is indeed in three persons yet an Echad - United One - meaning of one essence. He appeared in the OT like that to humanity.

For example: God's oneness of being has wisdom of person to create, the wisdom to created that is expressed to carry out the will of wisdom to create is Person, and the wisdom of creating that establishes the wisdom to create is Person. How and why person? Answer God is the living God would be his answer because all aspects of is deep will, knowledge, wisdom, proceeds from him as expression of Persons to carry out the will.

Jesus always said He does the will of the father and that He proceeds and came forth from the father and then to return. The Holy Spirit too for that matter. Both unique person's of the expression of the Godhead ie HaElohim. Not gods but a Majestic Plural One - one God.

I suggest folks go back and re-read this thread as I shoe this from the OT. Jesus appeared many times as the Malek YHWH ie Word doing YHWH and the Holy Spirit as the one who empowers and establishes the will, purpose, plan etc...

In Exodus 24:9,10,11 it states that the leaders of Israel saw God and ate and drank before him, yet in Exodus 24:12,13,14 tells us LORD ie YHWH said to Moses go up higher on the mountain and receive the Law and Commandments (Responsibilities). Yet, there leaders saw God as well eating and drinking in his presence and God spared them.

How can that be if what God later said in Exodus 33:20 - no mortal can see God in his full presence of being and live? Answer, he reveals himself as he is in truth, in manner of His living Theophany of being. Then in Exodus 34:6 we have three time the word LORD used. Lord in all caps in the bible is YHWH so three times YHWH is mentioned. THWH passed before Moses and proclaimed: YHWH the YHWH God is...

In Exodus 34:5 you have YHWH descending in cloud and standing before Moses and proclaimed the name (Character) of YHWH saying what verse 6-7 mentions describing attributes of God's character so that Exodus 33:22,23 could happen.

No one could behold the Lord's full being the fullness of the oneness of his panyim (presences - faces) however, He is what?

Merciful and gracious, overflowing/abounding with goodness and truth, etc...

God's oneness of being is overflowing/abounding with goodness and truth, mercy, grace, forgiving, yet just, and will exercise judgment on the guilty as that is the nature of God's Love.

So proceeds out, overflows/abounds from God is Person whom does the task of goodness and truth, mercy, grace, forgiving, justice, and judgment. As well as from God is person whom overflows/abounds establishes and empowers the task of goodness and truth, mercy, grace, forgiveness, justice, and judgment Because God is Living,who He is carries out what he does in Person - living - to carry out the hidden will of goodness and truth, mercy, grace, forgiving, justice, and judgment.

One God - in three persons - is how he revealed himself through the OT and NT and today. God does not lie, he revealed himself so we can look upon him and live and not die in our sins. So we too can go about declaring his name...in our words, actions, thoughts... to a lost world because He outflows goodness and truth, mercy, grace, forgiveness, justice, and judgment and He, the Holy Spirit lives within a Christian busy cleaning house, establishing and empowering us so we will declare forth His name defeating the darkness around us.

This is deep I know because there are no human words that are adequate to express the Majestic Plurality of God's Being.

So Elohim when the word pertains to God himself was written in the Majestic Plural noun form for a reason that so many people refuse to acknowledge because they busy themselves reducing God to a state of common oneness a one chair, or one animal and not as He himself revealed himself in Truth as - There None Like Him...

Ponder this:

Deut 6:4 - "Hear, O Israel! YHWH is our Elohim (plural), YHWH is one (Echad-unity) !"
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[B. W.]

We have been discussing the Trinity many times on this forum.

This Thread's subject: The Old Testament concept of God...

...is about how Trinitarian the the language of the OT really is.

There is a concept in Hebrew grammar of the Majestic Plural Noun verses a normal Collective plural nouns. The Hebrew word often used in the Ot for God is Elohim used around 2,600 times in about 2,247 verses in the MT (Masoretic Text) of the OT.

Elohim is a Plural collective noun. In Exodus 32:1,23 (gods not god), Deut 4:7,28 (gods not god) and Ex 23:33 Elohim is translated as a plural noun as gods... in the English text.

Let me spare you a deep grammar study singular noun modifiers as I will lose half the folks reading this.

Basically, the Hebraic thought came up with the idea of a Majestic Plural noun when referring to God. I am not going to get in the controversies if Majestic Plural nouns are really still Collective Plural nouns here. Most places of study adhere to the Majestic Plural noun when Elohim is applied to God so as keep intact the Shema - Deut 6:4.

The Majestic Plural Noun if you look at is still a plural noun. It expresses that God (Deut 6:4) is The Majestic Plural One. In other words, he is unlike anything we can fully grasp - that there is truly none like him whom we can compare.

This thread I wrote deals with that there is truly none like him whom we can compare because the OT mention the Majestic Plural Nature of God is indeed in three persons yet an Echad - United One - meaning of one essence. He appeared in the OT like that to humanity.

For example: God's oneness of being has wisdom of person to create, the wisdom to create is expressed to carry out from the will of wisdom to create is Person, and the wisdom of creating that establishes the wisdom to create is Person.

How and why person? Answer God is the living God would be his answer because all aspects of is deep will, knowledge, wisdom, proceeds from him as expression of Persons to carry out the will.

Jesus always said He does the will of the Father and that He proceeded and came forth from the Father and then to return. The Holy Spirit for that matter too. Both unique person's are the expression of the Godhead ie HaElohim. Not gods but a Majestic Plural One - one Living God.

I suggest folks go back and re-read this thread as I show this from the OT. Jesus appeared many times as the Malek YHWH ie Word doing YHWH and the Holy Spirit as the one who empowers and establishes the will, purpose, plan etc...

In Exodus 24:9,10,11 it states that the leaders of Israel saw God and ate and drank before him, yet in Exodus 24:12,13,14 tells us LORD ie YHWH said to Moses go up higher on the mountain and receive the Law and Commandments (Responsibilities). Yet, there leaders saw God as well eating and drinking in his presence and God spared them.

How can that be if what God later said in Exodus 33:20 - no mortal can see God in his full presence of being and live? Answer, he reveals himself as he is in truth, in manner of His Living Theophany of being. Then in Exodus 34:6 we have three time the word LORD used. Lord in all caps in the bible is YHWH so three times YHWH is mentioned. YHWH passed before Moses and proclaimed: YHWH the YHWH God is...

In Exodus 34:5 you have YHWH descending in cloud and standing before Moses and proclaimed the name (Character) of YHWH saying what verse 6-7 mentions describing attributes of God's character so that Exodus 33:22,23 could happen.

No one could behold the Lord's full being the fullness of the oneness of his panyim (presences - faces) however, He is what?

Merciful and gracious, overflowing/abounding with goodness and truth, etc...

God's oneness of being is overflowing/abounding with goodness and truth, mercy, grace, forgiving, yet just, and will exercise judgment on the guilty as that is the nature of God's Love.

So proceeds out, overflows/abounds from God is Person whom does the task of goodness and truth, mercy, grace, forgiving, justice, and judgment. As well as from God is person whom overflows/abounds establishes and empowers the task of goodness and truth, mercy, grace, forgiveness, justice, and judgment Because God is Living, who He is carries out what he does in Person - living - to carry out the hidden will of goodness and truth, mercy, grace, forgiving, justice, and judgment.

One God - in three persons - is how he revealed himself through the OT and NT and today. God does not lie, he revealed himself so we can look upon him and live and not die in our sins. So we too can go about declaring his name...in our words, actions, thoughts... to a lost world because He outflows goodness and truth, mercy, grace, forgiveness, justice, and judgment and He, the Holy Spirit lives within a Christian busy cleaning house, establishing and empowering us so we will declare forth His name defeating the darkness around us.

This is deep I know because there are no human words that are adequate to express the Majestic Plurality of God's Being.

So Elohim when the word pertains to God himself was written in the Majestic Plural noun form for a reason that so many people refuse to acknowledge because they busy themselves reducing God to a state of common oneness a one chair, or one animal and not as He himself revealed himself in Truth as - There None Like Him...

Ponder this:

Deut 6:4 - "Hear, O Israel! YHWH is our Elohim (plural), YHWH is one (Echad-unity) !"

[jenna]

...So for those of us without Comcast or Dish Network...by what name does the show go by? I just ask because you never say which show or for what station, interviewed by whom...??? I need just a hair more information.

Whoops - show is called - 'Stories of the Supernatural...'
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was this show about exorcism? sorry, just wanted to make sure i am watching the correct stuff.

[B. W.]

...So for those of us without Comcast or Dish Network...by what name does the show go by? I just ask because you never say which show or for what station, interviewed by whom...??? I need just a hair more information.

Whoops - show is called - 'Stories of the Supernatural...'
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was this show about exorcism? sorry, just wanted to make sure i am watching the correct stuff.

That was awhile back - 2008 see link below:

Docudrama Video

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[B. W.]

Bump

[thatkidakayoungguy]

A lot of people think the OT God is evil.
I want to think that sometimes but I see it's not the case.
However I'll agree with them that it can be very rough and brutal. Sometimes I question the motives of such people like Elisha and God who let Rahab live though she lied. Well with God it's just more of a hard time understanding.

[Kurieuo]

A lot of people think the OT God is evil.
I want to think that sometimes but I see it's not the case.
However I'll agree with them that it can be very rough and brutal. Sometimes I question the motives of such people like Elisha and God who let Rahab live though she lied. Well with God it's just more of a hard time understanding.

I think people have it back-to-front.
The OT God isn't evil, but rather a righteous God who judges.
Perhaps there isn't much perceived difference to those under God's judgement, since they all stand to be sentenced to death for turning against Him. But, it is us who moved to first make God our enemy. And, enemies always appear evil to us, since they want to destroy us and we don't like that. Those who God judges would destroy God, if they could, and that is what many seek to do in their hearts.

As for each case in the OT, there are good answers. It is easy to criticise from a place of ignorance (as many Atheists do). Criticising is always easier, and really answers are always much more complex, but they're there for those who do dig in and do some research.

[Philip]

One has got to wonder why so many atheists are obsessed with asserting God does not exist, and denouncing belief in Him. Seems they doth protest too much. But WHY???

And notice atheist wrath is almost universally focused on Christianity and the God of the Bible.

[thatkidakayoungguy]

A lot of people think the OT God is evil.
I want to think that sometimes but I see it's not the case.
However I'll agree with them that it can be very rough and brutal. Sometimes I question the motives of such people like Elisha and God who let Rahab live though she lied. Well with God it's just more of a hard time understanding.

I think people have it back-to-front.
The OT God isn't evil, but rather a righteous God who judges.
Perhaps there isn't much perceived difference to those under God's judgement, since they all stand to be sentenced to death for turning against Him. But, it is us who moved to first make God our enemy. And, enemies always appear evil to us, since they want to destroy us and we don't like that. Those who God judges would destroy God, if they could, and that is what many seek to do in their hearts.

As for each case in the OT, there are good answers. It is easy to criticise from a place of ignorance (as many Atheists do). Criticising is always easier, and really answers are always much more complex, but they're there for those who do dig in and do some research.

I agree now, but the rebuttal some have of why would God allow and cause so much death to happen, well as you said those unsaved humans were enemies, and with the saved it is either a byproduct of being in this world and/or a way for God to discipline or strengthen us.
Humans do tend to be violent though. We're also 98% identical to chimps, who are also violent. Hmmm.