Understanding the Trinity

[B. W.]

Well Jenna please take the time and read through the thread I posted:

The Old Testament Concept of God linked to below...

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=33317

Do you good help make make you

One thing I do not understand is why you would hold to the Old Herbert Armstrong doctrines when these have been refuted even by fellow members?

Why do you subject yourself to the tenets of control of the shepherding disciple movement?

I know that is not on topic right now but I do not get why you hold on to refuted doctrines of the old Worldwide Church of God?
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because they have not been refuted, to me. they have been proven to me to be truth, just as what you believe is truth to you. we simply have different ideas of what truth is.

Jesus said, in John 8:31-33 these things: "So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." 33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?" NASB

The truth will make you free...

Then the Religious leader said in verse 33 "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"

Let's change it: "We are Armstrong's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"

I take it from what you said about yourself in other post that you are striving for an increase in your leadership with the group you are in and thus have to answer to authorities above you to curry favor. Jenna, that is not freedom...

Also, to continue in Jesus's words is what makes truly free. If Jesus was not God in human flesh, then his words will not make anyone free following them.

You say you follow Jesus' words but you instead follow what H W Armstrong says about Jesus words, not what Jesus says. You have placed your hope in what man teaches and obeying man's authority/leadership, that is not freedom.

Jesus said in Matthew 11:29,30, "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. 30 "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." NASB

What do your leaders and yourself demand? Not easy is it?

Truth is truth - not plan truth at all.

You fear non acceptance which is normal for all human beings. We all have the need to feel and be accepted, valued, worthwhile, like we belong to something larger than ourselves...etc. These are normal human needs. We all have them.

However, when one is abandoned, betrayed, abused, slandered, hurt, denied, lied about, deceived, etc in life these normal values all human beings have often drive people into unhealthy relationships to have these needs meet. Unscrupulous people will feed off these needs to control others as they get their smug sense of value met. Jesus came to free us from that sort of enslavement.

Bible, God's word warns of false leaders and prophets look at Armstrong's list of false prophetic claims:

Below are only a few quotes regarding Herbert W Armstrong's date-setting....

1934:

"...the year 1936 will see the end of the Times of the Gentiles.... we may expect the present worldwide depression, time of trouble and fear of war to continue until the year 1936!... quickly after that time, we may expect to see the heavenly signs of the sun and moon becoming dark, the stars falling.... which shall be followed by the 'Day of the Lord." (The Plain Truth, June-July 1934, Herbert Armstrong, p. 5)
1940:

"...Armageddon, we believe, must be at least three or four years away..." ("Democracy Doomed!" The Plain Truth, April-May 1940, Herbert W. Armstrong)
1947

"...in a few years NONE OF US will be living in our present homes—EVERYTHING material we possess now will be swept away from us...it will strike DURING THIS PRESENT GENERATION—it cannot now be more than A FEW YEARS... (Herbert W. Armstrong, Co-Worker letter, December 8, 1947)
1953:

"Now HERE IS SOMETHING STARTLING! Herman Hoeh, in his eye-opening article you will read in the June number of The PLAIN TRUTH on the Times of the Gentiles shows that the Times of the Gentiles—if chronologies are correct—will come to their final end in the year 1982." .............

"Now if this chronology is correct, that means Christ shall return some very few years PRIOR to1982! NO MAN KNOWS THE DAY, HOUR, OR YEAR OF CHRIST'S RETURN. But we CAN know exact dates of one or two other events." ...........

"IF THE TIMES OF THE GENTILES END IN 1982, in October, as Mr. Hoeh has it figured, THE INVASION OF AMERICA AND THE GREAT TRIBULATION MUST BEGIN NOT LATER THAT MARCH-APRIL, 1972!" (Herbert W. Armstrong, Co-Worker letter, May 22, 1953)

1956:

"Indications of prophecy are that this drought ... will strike sooner than 1975— probably between 1965 and 1972!" ... "Yes, millions of lukewarm inactive professing Christians will suffer MARTYRDOM—and that before the anticipated push-button leisure-year of 1975 dawns upon us!" (1975 in Prophecy, 1956, pp. 10, 20, Herbert W. Armstrong)
"You're going to be shocked to read what goes on undercover in the United States. Five major vices threaten the total collapse of our country inside of 20 years. The handwriting is on the wall of America, now!" ("U.S.A. Riding to Total Collapse in 20 Short Years!" [subtitled: "Here are the naked FACTS that ought to astonish and shock you into immediate action.] (The Plain Truth, February 1956, Herbert W. Armstrong)

[After fostering many scare tactics in the article concerning how many in the U.S.A. are going to die of famine, pestilence and war "in less than 20 years," he goes on to say:]

"I've shown you from the very word of God what is next coming in prophesied events...It's prophesied for 15 to 20 years or less." ("U.S.A. Riding to Total Collapse in 20 Short Years!" (Ibid.)
1957:

"God prophecies that finally, within the next fifteen years, fully ONE THIRD of our whole population will die of disease and famine." (The Plain Truth, December 1957, Herbert W. Armstrong)
1958:

"We are just coming now to the grand smash climax of this whole age when there are far more prophecies--far more world shaking events--to happen in the next 15 or 20 years than ever happened before in the history of the world!" (The Proof of the Bible, 1958, Herbert W. Armstrong)
1959:

"I say to YOU, now, that your money—your home—every material thing you have—will be taken from you SOON—probably in 12 to 13 years, certainly in 15 or less!" (Herbert W. Armstrong, August 13, 1959 Co-Worker letter)
1960:

"In 12 years or less the U.S.A. will suffer the worst depression ever suffered by any nation." (Herbert W. Armstrong, December 1960 Co-Worker letter)
1963:

"We may now have only eight or nine more years to FINISH His Work!" (Herbert W. Armstrong, October 27, 1963 Co-Worker letter)

"In eight years all of our ministers will be silenced!" (November 23, 1963 sermon, Herbert W. Armstrong)
"Somewhere along about seven to ten years from now the REVOLUTION IN THE WEATHER will become a national and international calamity. Drought, epidemic of disease, will reap a mountain harvest of death across North America--and in Britain." (The Plain Truth, January 1963, Herbert W. Armstrong)
1964:

"We may have an occasional good year in the weather, but the trend in general will continue until--probably by 1971-1972--it will become an acute disaster, especially to the United States, Canada, Britain and Australia." (The Plain Truth, January 1964, Herbert W. Armstrong)
1965:

"We are in the grand smash climax--only six more years left." (Co-Worker letter, December 13, 1965, Herbert W. Armstrong)

1966:

WE MAY HAVE ONLY ONE OR TWO MORE YEARS LEFT TO FINISH THE WORK THE LIVING CHRIST IS DOING THROUGH HIS CHURCH! Time is running out on us! It is now FAR later than you think! (Herbert W. Armstrong, Co-Worker letter, June 27, 1966)

1967
"The God who is REAL says of OUR PEOPLES: 'Prophecy against the prophets of Israel . . . O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes of the deserts. Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up a hedge for the House of Israel TO STAND in the BATTLE IN THE DAY OF THE ETERNAL (Ezek. 13:1-5).' That is NOT a message to ancient Israel—but to OUR NATIONS TODAY. The 'DAY OF THE ETERNAL'—a time foretold in more than thirty prophecies—is going to strike between 5 and 10 years from now! You will know, then, how REAL it is. You will wish, then, you had heeded. I am not writing foolishly, but very soberly, ON AUTHORITY of the living CHRIST!" ("HOW the U.S. Can END the Vietnam WAR . . . NOW!" (The Plain Truth, Feb.

1967, p. 47, Herbert W. Armstrong)
"A STAGGERING TURN in world events is due to erupt in the next four to seven years. It will involve violently the United States, Britain, Western Europe, the Middle East." (The United States and British Commonwealth in Prophecy, Introduction,

1967, p. IX, Herbert W. Armstrong)3
"Now, other prophecies reveal, we are to have soon (probably in about four years) such drought, and famine, that disease epidemics will follow taking millions of lives ... Well, we have been getting foretastes of that! That condition is coming! And I do not mean in 400 years—nor in 40 years—but in the very next FOUR or FIVE!" (Ibid., p.184)
"You need to look at the prophecies of Jesus of Jeremiah, of Isaiah, and others, describing how much more INTENSE is to be the punishment God is going to lay on the British and American people in five to seven more years!" (Ibid., p. 185)
"The 'Day of the Eternal'--a time foretold in more than thirty prophecies--is going to strike between 5 and 10 years from now!" (The Plain Truth, February 1967, Herbert W. Armstrong)
1969:

"If that unseen Hand does not exist, humanity will not survive on earth another 25 years, or less! I know whereof I speak, for no organization on earth has a more knowledgeable grasp and understanding of world conditions, trends, and causes, than ours. ..." (The Ambassador College Correspondence Course, Lesson 5, 1969, p. 15)
"There is very little time remaining. You now know only a minority of humanity will remain alive just a few years from now." (Ibid., Lesson 44, 1969, p. 16)

1977:

"During this generation--within 60 to 90 years or less-from 1927--Christ will come again..." (Herbert W. Armstrong, Co-Worker letter, January 20, 1977)
1980:

"The actual movement of world events as prophesied WARNS US that all this MAY now occur in the decade we entered day before yesterday--and, if delayed past 1990, most certainly during the decade of the 90s." (Herbert W. Armstrong, Co-Worker Letter, January 3, 1980)

1984:

"The Plain Truth brings you UNDERSTANDING of the very Word of God, the SOURCE of TRUTH--and of the PROPHECIES of events soon to occur, in the next two, five or 10 years!" (The Plain Truth, September 1984, Personal from Herbert W. Armstrong)

1985:
Right up to the end of his life Herbert Armstrong continued to make false predictions. Here is just one quote from his Mystery of the Ages:

"And, secondly, to reveal—preserved in writing for us TODAY—what is to happen "in the latter days"—actually within the next two decades—THIS LAST HALF OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY! (Mystery of the Ages, Herbert W. Armstrong, p. 298)

"We do not set dates! ... if we...appear to set a date, I FEEL I DO NOT NEED TO APOLOGIZE!" (Herbert W. Armstrong, Tomorrow's World, February 1972)

How many times did members sit on the edge of their seat while reading these numerous letters and articles? The end was always "right around the corner" and members needed to give more and more offerings before time ran out! Herbert Armstrong was proved wrong time and time again, but leaders who follow his prophetic teachings today have learned that this kind of continual date-setting (laced with fear) works well and will bring in the money from the trusting flock.

Yet, towards the end of 1971 it was several other high-ranking ministers in the Worldwide Church of God (not Herbert Armstrong) that saw 1972 was going to dawn without anything disastrous happening. (Read: Hanky-Panky and Revolt in the Worldwide Church of God)

HWA Had Figured it Out (Letter to ESN in 2000 telling the ridiculous reason one WCG minister gave his congregation as to why 1972 "came and went.")

By February 1972 HWA had come up with an original excuse as to why members didn't flee to Petra (the "place of safety") in January 1972 as they were made to believe they would and also because HWA told how the second 19 year cycle was to be completed at that time:

"It DID take a second 19 years to get the message into all nations -- but, as of January 7th, 1972, we had reached many of them ONLY SUPERFICIALLY -- not intensively!"

("The 19-Year Time Cycles -- What HAPPENED January 7 -- What My Commission IS!" Good News, February 1972)
Then Herbert Armstrong went on in this article to tell what actually did happen on January 7, 1972:

"On that very day, the MOST POWERFUL DOOR" had opened up." [Ibid]
What was it? To purchase advertising space in the "entire United States edition of Reader's Digest."

The next thing that he says happened on that date was how they received financing from their bankers for "80% of the superb new auditorium [Ambassador Auditorium], NOW ACTUALLY UNDER CONSTRUCTION on the Pasadena campus."

"Yes, THINGS DID HAPPEN January 7th!" [Ibid]
He then drags his future prophecies out a little longer by saying:

"...it seems God assures us of a few more years at least to go, since it will take two years to complete it." [Ibid]
In 1981 he pulled out Revelation 10:11, applying it to himself and telling how God had "held up world events" so he (HWA) could complete this "special commission." But this was not without first putting the blame on the members about the 1972 date: [emp. ours]

"Yet some members totally misconstrued what I did say, and took it to mean definite date settings for end of this world and coming of Christ for the new World Tomorrow...I never did, and do not now set dates--even as to the year." (Pastor General's Report, LOOKING INTO THE NEXT FOUR YEARS AND NINE YEARS OF DECADE OF EIGHTIES, by Herbert W. Armstrong, January 23, 1981)

The book, When Prophecy Fails by Leon Festinger shows how, in spite of failed prophecies, members in apocalyptic groups will usually make some other excuse and go right on believing.

Fun With Prophecy (shows how WCG later tried to make members believe they were the ones at fault for believing in the prophecies of HWA; comments cover what members were taught about the Place of Safety.)

Gerald Flurry decides to remove some of HWA's words

The following words by HWA were removed by Gerald Flurry when he re-printed Mystery of the Ages (it is posted on his website). He changed the sub-heading to say, "Prophecy is a PROOF of God," and also removed other words from the original booklet and added words of his own.

Prophecy is the proof of divine revelation! If One, in the Bible, speaking and claiming to be God, can make prophecies and tell what is going to happen in the future to nations, to cities, to empires, then if it actually happens in every case, and without a miss, you'll know that was a real God speaking.

But, if it were some person writing this, some human mortal writing in ignorance, groping in superstition, making great boasts, and claiming that he could foretell what was going to happen to proud cities, to nations, to great empires, and then it never happens, you know that that man was merely writing make- believe out of his own imagination. (The Proof of the Bible, "Prophecy is the PROOF of God," by Herbert W. Armstrong, 1958)

The following are quotes from Herbert W. Armstrong stating that there is no prophet today (notice this was written after his 1972 prophecy failure):

[bolding ours]

"There is no such human prophet living today!"

"The Bible is the written Word of God—and, for our time now, it is COMPLETE! Never have I believed or claimed that God reveals to me new truths not contained in the Bible—in addition to, or apart from the Bible…

"Let's take a look at the Church of God of the first century, as we find it revealed in the Book of Acts, beginning from the day of Pentecost, 31 A.D. The Bible was not fully written—only the Old Testament—in 31 A.D. God then was still communicating new truth, instruction and knowledge directly and personally to prophets. As the Church progressed, it was the function of a prophet to communicate TO THE APOSTLES special messages which God had personally revealed to them. Others were inspired in the writing of the books of the New Testament.

"So we read, in Acts 11:28 and 21:10-11, of the prophet Agabus. But today we have the COMPLETE Word of God, for our time, in the Bible. There are no such prophets—EXCEPT FALSE ONES." (Herbert W. Armstrong Personal from the Editor, "The 19-Year Time Cycles -- What HAPPENED January 7--What My Commission IS! The Good News of Tomorrow's World, 2/72)
HWA says he is not a prophet

But I definitely have NOT been called to be a PROPHET...Emphatically I am NOT a prophet, in the sense of one to whom God speaks specially and directly, revealing personally a future event to happen or new truth, or new and special instruction direct from God--separate from, and apart from what is contained in the Bible." (Herbert Armstrong, "Personal from Herbert W. Armstrong," Tomorrow's World, Feb. 1972, p. 1)
In response to this last quote, Paul N. Benware writes:

Mr. Armstrong emphatically states that he is not a prophet, like those of old who received new revelation from God. However, in spite of his denials, the fact still remains that he does claim that new truth, embedded in the Bible, has been revealed in him. (Ambassadors of Armstrongism, 1984, p. 25, 26.) [emp. ours]

"For they prophesy falsely unto you in my name: I have not sent them, saith the LORD." ~Jeremiah 29:9

So we can see by the above quotes how Herbert Armstrong backpedaled and even lied, because he is saying here that there are no human prophets living today, and (in a clever twist of words) declares that he is not a prophet. Yet we know that he gave prophecies 2 by telling such and such was going to happen "in 5 years," "in 20 years," "in your lifetime," "in a few more years," and especially with his book, 1975 in Prophecy (later withdrawn), making members think he was "speaking for God" (the definition of a prophet). HWA is saying that he doesn't have truths, yet he later told members he did have new truth; i. e., on makeup, divorce and remarriage, the spirit in man, observance of Pentecost, etc. The Church of God 7th day, which HWA was associated with in his early years in Oregon, stated that HWA previously called himself a prophet and the congregation actually believed it! HWA incriminated himself by his own words.

"HWA tries hard to bail himself out of the January 7, 1972 date--his former terminal date--by planning more advertising, more buildings, and more radio propaganda--BUT his hundreds of blunders expose him as a continuing false prophet." (Armstrongism's 300 Errors Exposed by 3000 Bible Verses, S. E. Anderson, 1973, p. 195; referring to HWA's February 1972 World Tomorrow personal).

"When one claims that he has been ordained of God, baptized by Jesus Christ...and dares to tell in specific, point-by point, and in detailed order, the events that are to occur, the real meaning of the mysterious books of prophecy...he ought not to have made predictions which have never come to pass. ... And if he is God's true prophet for these times, he should never have made such predictions as have miserably failed." (Radio Church of God Vs. Church of God, 7th Day - John Kiez. Quoted from p. 211 of Armstrongism: Religion or Rip-Off? An Exposé of the Armstrong Modus Operandi) by Marion J. McNair.

Quoted in full From this link

Jenna, the truth of God's word sets you free and Jesus' yoke is light and easy... all grace...

It is not a matter of how one perceives truth that determines truth, truth comes form Jesus who alone meets all our human need of approval, acceptance, purpose, etc truth is, he will never leave us nor forsake us or exploit us for he is not a mere man but God come in Human Flesh, 2nd person of the Godhead, who unties all who come to him form all the works of the devil...

You need this Jesus...
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[jenna]

B.W.
you say I need acceptance, but i feel that you are wrong somewhat in this regard. if i truly needed that, i would simply go along with what most others are saying/believing. Yet as you can see, i do not. lol, i have been called crazy, a fruitcake, a member of a cult, been given the cold shoulder, the eye-roll, lost friends, and even had my own husband turn against me. (both of them). i have been ridiculed several times. but my faith has not wavered in what i know to be true. Christ said that even as He was persecuted, so shall we be. i have come to accept it, and it is fine with me.
just to be clear, i do not belong to a group, nor do i have or want leadership. i no longer go to a church, anywhere. i do not answer to anyone, except for God, when He returns.

[B. W.]

Jenna, do you associate with any of these groups?

THE PHILADELPHIA CHURCH OF GOD (Gerald Flurry)
THE RESTORED CHURCH OF GOD (David C. Pack)
LIVING CHURCH OF GOD (Roderick C. Meredith)
INTERCONTINENTAL CHURCH OF GOD (Garner Ted Armstrong)
UNITED CHURCH OF GOD, AN INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION
CHURCH OF GOD'S FAITHFUL (Robert G. Ardis)
INDEPENDENT CHURCH OF GOD (Ronald L. Dart)
CHURCH OF GOD, AN INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY (David Hulme)
CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL CHURCH OF GOD (Fred R. Coulter)
THE CHURCH OF GOD-PKG (Ronald Weinland)
HOUSE OF YAHWEH (Yisrayl Hawkins)
GOD'S CHURCH, WORLDWIDE (David Moore)
CHURCH OF GOD, FAITHFUL FLOCK (Alton Billingsley, or Don Billingsley)
CHURCH OF GOD, A WORLDWIDE ASSOCIATION

If so which one? If not what is the name of of your group?

Need to know so as to know what you believe is truth...
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[PaulSacramento]

You said that heaven and hell haven't been proven Biblically? We've been talking about salvation, that the Godhead makes it possible. If there's no heaven or hell, then why has God provided salvation. What is a person being saved From or To?!

God teaches all of these things in His Word -- a person might not Like what they are reading -- but that doesn't make it 'not there'.

God has provided salvation from eternal death, i thought this had been covered earlier? must have been a different thread. anyway, god's gift to us is eternal life, His punishment eternal death, from which there will be no resurrection. this is what we are being saved from, not eternal burning in hell.

So you don't believe that the passage in Revelations, about those not in the book of life being judged and thrown into the lake of fire?

The Defeat of Satan
7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Judgment Before the Great White Throne
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

yes, i believe they will be thrown in the lake of fire, but i do not believe they will burn for eternity. they will simply burn up and be gone, forever. the punishMENT is eternal, not the punishING.

The issue is that, according to that very chapter:

the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

This states that punishment in the lake of fire is "forever and ever".

[B. W.]

B.W.
you say I need acceptance, but i feel that you are wrong somewhat in this regard. if i truly needed that, i would simply go along with what most others are saying/believing. Yet as you can see, i do not. lol, i have been called crazy, a fruitcake, a member of a cult, been given the cold shoulder, the eye-roll, lost friends, and even had my own husband turn against me. (both of them). i have been ridiculed several times. but my faith has not wavered in what i know to be true. Christ said that even as He was persecuted, so shall we be. i have come to accept it, and it is fine with me.
just to be clear, i do not belong to a group, nor do i have or want leadership. i no longer go to a church, anywhere. i do not answer to anyone, except for God, when He returns.

Jenna, long ago early 198's I was once part of controlling church group that used the shepherding discipleship model for Christian discipleship on its members. Terrible stuff to go through. This was a church that was orthodox Christian doctrine, yet, used control over its members.

After reading your response, I see a mirror image of those folks I once knew who came out of that mess in your own words. They said the same things as you just did. I rebelled against it and was hurt by it too. That whole system crashed and the pastor ran out of town by the city minister board. I had to testify against the Pastor for a crime he committed. Toughened me up to know the truth that sets free...Valuable lessons learned...

I am saying to you, to check yourself - you are being controlled and while being controlled it feels good and that feeling good nullifies commonsense to see what is going on around you... like so many others before you and after you end up going through.

[jenna]

Jenna, do you associate with any of these groups?

THE PHILADELPHIA CHURCH OF GOD (Gerald Flurry)
THE RESTORED CHURCH OF GOD (David C. Pack)
LIVING CHURCH OF GOD (Roderick C. Meredith)
INTERCONTINENTAL CHURCH OF GOD (Garner Ted Armstrong)
UNITED CHURCH OF GOD, AN INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION
CHURCH OF GOD'S FAITHFUL (Robert G. Ardis)
INDEPENDENT CHURCH OF GOD (Ronald L. Dart)
CHURCH OF GOD, AN INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY (David Hulme)
CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL CHURCH OF GOD (Fred R. Coulter)
THE CHURCH OF GOD-PKG (Ronald Weinland)
HOUSE OF YAHWEH (Yisrayl Hawkins)
GOD'S CHURCH, WORLDWIDE (David Moore)
CHURCH OF GOD, FAITHFUL FLOCK (Alton Billingsley, or Don Billingsley)
CHURCH OF GOD, A WORLDWIDE ASSOCIATION

If so which one? If not what is the name of of your group?

Need to know so as to know what you believe is truth...
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again, i do not associate with any of these. i am not a member of any church or affiliated with any name. i am just a bible believer, in truth, justice and the american way.

[jenna]

You said that heaven and hell haven't been proven Biblically? We've been talking about salvation, that the Godhead makes it possible. If there's no heaven or hell, then why has God provided salvation. What is a person being saved From or To?!

God teaches all of these things in His Word -- a person might not Like what they are reading -- but that doesn't make it 'not there'.

God has provided salvation from eternal death, i thought this had been covered earlier? must have been a different thread. anyway, god's gift to us is eternal life, His punishment eternal death, from which there will be no resurrection. this is what we are being saved from, not eternal burning in hell.

So you don't believe that the passage in Revelations, about those not in the book of life being judged and thrown into the lake of fire?

The Defeat of Satan
7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Judgment Before the Great White Throne
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

yes, i believe they will be thrown in the lake of fire, but i do not believe they will burn for eternity. they will simply burn up and be gone, forever. the punishMENT is eternal, not the punishING.

The issue is that, according to that very chapter:

the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

This states that punishment in the lake of fire is "forever and ever".

please note that it says the beast and the false prophet WERE, not are. they will be thrown in there and burned up. the ones tormented are the devil and his angels, since they cannot die.

[RickD]

one question for all: am I correct in understanding this picture is correct?

Yes. I'm glad you finally admit it's correct. Now I can't call you anymore.

ok i am glad you agreed! because you are going to retract your statement! lol.

Jenna,

I believe Jac addressed this already on this thread. I'll try to explain, but I'm not sure I can do it the justice it deserves. Hopefully Jac, Kurieuo, or Byblos, or someone else can explain better.

In the two diagrams, they each show three persons with one nature. In the first, John, Jim, and Bill are 3 separate persons with one human nature. In the second, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are 3 separate persons with one divine nature.

Now, there can logically, only be one God. So, while all 3 persons of the Trinity are God by Nature, they are one God, not Three.

Maybe one of the three wise men I listed above, can explain that better for you, because that may be part of where you're getting hung up.

[jenna]

one question for all: am I correct in understanding this picture is correct?

Yes. I'm glad you finally admit it's correct. Now I can't call you anymore.

ok i am glad you agreed! because you are going to retract your statement! lol.

Jenna,

I believe Jac addressed this already on this thread. I'll try to explain, but I'm not sure I can do it the justice it deserves. Hopefully Jac, Kurieuo, or Byblos, or someone else can explain better.

In the two diagrams, they each show three persons with one nature. In the first, John, Jim, and Bill are 3 separate persons with one human nature. In the second, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are 3 separate persons with one divine nature.

Now, there can logically, only be one God. So, while all 3 persons of the Trinity are God by Nature, they are one God, not Three.

Maybe one of the three wise men I listed above, can explain that better for you, because that may be part of where you're getting hung up.

maybe they can, because by your words alone, they each show 3 with one nature. on one side, 3 separate persons, one nature (human). on the other side, 3 separate persons, one nature (divine). if you are going by this, there are still 3, regardless of which side they are on

[RickD]

one question for all: am I correct in understanding this picture is correct?

Yes. I'm glad you finally admit it's correct. Now I can't call you anymore.

ok i am glad you agreed! because you are going to retract your statement! lol.

Jenna,

I believe Jac addressed this already on this thread. I'll try to explain, but I'm not sure I can do it the justice it deserves. Hopefully Jac, Kurieuo, or Byblos, or someone else can explain better.

In the two diagrams, they each show three persons with one nature. In the first, John, Jim, and Bill are 3 separate persons with one human nature. In the second, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are 3 separate persons with one divine nature.

Now, there can logically, only be one God. So, while all 3 persons of the Trinity are God by Nature, they are one God, not Three.

Maybe one of the three wise men I listed above, can explain that better for you, because that may be part of where you're getting hung up.

maybe they can, because by your words alone, they each show 3 with one nature. on one side, 3 separate persons, one nature (human). on the other side, 3 separate persons, one nature (divine). if you are going by this, there are still 3, regardless of which side they are on

But the difference you're missing, is that there can only be one God. It's logically impossible for there to be more than one.

It was suggested to you before, and maybe you missed it, but you really need to read Jac's Divine Simplicity book.

It explains what you're not grasping. It will help you understand better. Read it, and post any questions you have, in this thread.

[jenna]

Yes. I'm glad you finally admit it's correct. Now I can't call you anymore.

ok i am glad you agreed! because you are going to retract your statement! lol.

Jenna,

I believe Jac addressed this already on this thread. I'll try to explain, but I'm not sure I can do it the justice it deserves. Hopefully Jac, Kurieuo, or Byblos, or someone else can explain better.

In the two diagrams, they each show three persons with one nature. In the first, John, Jim, and Bill are 3 separate persons with one human nature. In the second, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are 3 separate persons with one divine nature.

Now, there can logically, only be one God. So, while all 3 persons of the Trinity are God by Nature, they are one God, not Three.

Maybe one of the three wise men I listed above, can explain that better for you, because that may be part of where you're getting hung up.

maybe they can, because by your words alone, they each show 3 with one nature. on one side, 3 separate persons, one nature (human). on the other side, 3 separate persons, one nature (divine). if you are going by this, there are still 3, regardless of which side they are on

But the difference you're missing, is that there can only be one God. It's logically impossible for there to be more than one.

It was suggested to you before, and maybe you missed it, but you really need to read Jac's Divine Simplicity book.

It explains what you're not grasping. It will help you understand better. Read it, and post any questions you have, in this thread.

i find it rather odd that first you agreed that i understood it, but now that i have shown you the error FROM YOUR OWN WORDS, all of a sudden it's like "oh no, you must have misunderstood what i said, go look at this or that."

[RickD]

ok i am glad you agreed! because you are going to retract your statement! lol.

Jenna,

I believe Jac addressed this already on this thread. I'll try to explain, but I'm not sure I can do it the justice it deserves. Hopefully Jac, Kurieuo, or Byblos, or someone else can explain better.

In the two diagrams, they each show three persons with one nature. In the first, John, Jim, and Bill are 3 separate persons with one human nature. In the second, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are 3 separate persons with one divine nature.

Now, there can logically, only be one God. So, while all 3 persons of the Trinity are God by Nature, they are one God, not Three.

Maybe one of the three wise men I listed above, can explain that better for you, because that may be part of where you're getting hung up.

maybe they can, because by your words alone, they each show 3 with one nature. on one side, 3 separate persons, one nature (human). on the other side, 3 separate persons, one nature (divine). if you are going by this, there are still 3, regardless of which side they are on

But the difference you're missing, is that there can only be one God. It's logically impossible for there to be more than one.

It was suggested to you before, and maybe you missed it, but you really need to read Jac's Divine Simplicity book.

It explains what you're not grasping. It will help you understand better. Read it, and post any questions you have, in this thread.

i find it rather odd that first you agreed that i understood it, but now that i have shown you the error FROM YOUR OWN WORDS, all of a sudden it's like "oh no, you must have misunderstood what i said, go look at this or that."

Are you serious? You showed me 1/2 of a picture. If you were up front the first time, and posted the entire picture, I would have told you the same thing that I told you after you posted it.

Look Jenna,

If you want to try to understand what the Doctrine of The Trinity actually says, then you can find out here. But if you want to try to play Gotcha Games by trying to trick me into something which I don't believe, then I won't waste my time anymore.

You really need to realize how you look, arguing against something you don't even begin to understand.

[jenna]

first off, i am not trying to trick you, or anyone, into something you dont believe. i did not post the entire picture because i wanted you to see exactly why i believe the way i do, not to get you to believe it. ya'll claim that i am wrong, but have yet to show me where exactly. to post my feelings entirely on this would take too long, and waste a lot of time, for me and for you. you all think i am a fruitcake anyway, whether joking or not, so why even bother? you say i can understand the doctrine of the trinity here, but alot has been posted, which i have read, yet somehow i am still not following the logic behind it. seems to me that if we are to trust in God, why would we when we cant even understand or properly explain the basic doctrines? a few of you seem to think that i must just accept it or lose my soul, if that is the case then i am lost, figuratively and literally, because i will not accept something that cannot even be properly explained to me. sorry to waste your time, but i just cannot find it in me to do that.

[Jac3510]

i find it rather odd that first you agreed that i understood it, but now that i have shown you the error FROM YOUR OWN WORDS, all of a sudden it's like "oh no, you must have misunderstood what i said, go look at this or that."

*sigh*

Jenna, Rick is right. You are not critiquing the Trinity. If what you just posted is what we believed, I would agree that you disproved it. But that's wrong. But perhaps your illustration can help explain why not only have you misrepresented the Trinity but why your own view is logically impossible and why I say it is just atheism.

Your three humans all have their nature. But none of the divine Persons have a nature. They are the same nature. That's a massive difference. You have a nature: a human one. I have a nature: a human one. That's why we're both the same kind of thing: humans. You are not "humanness." You are, rather, a human. I am not "humanness." I am, rather, a human. That's why your illustration doesn't work. It wants to suggest that three humans are all identical with humanness, which is just false.

But in God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit do not possess or have their nature. They don't have a divine nature the way you have a human nature. All three just are the exact same nature. That is, God just is "Godness." The Father doesn't have godness (the way you have humanness) and so is God (the way you have your humanness are so are human). The Father is identical with, not possess, "Godness." The Son is identical with, not possesses, "Godness"--and it's exactly the same "Godness" that the Father is identical with. And the Holy Spirit is identical with, not possess, "Godness"--and it's exactly the same "Godness" that the Father and the Son are identical with.

Now, you don't have to agree, for now, that God is (rather than has) His nature. But if you are going to say the Trinity is wrong, you have to argue against what Trinitarianism is, not something you've invented and just called Trinitarianism. I can argue and prove on grounds totally unrelated to Trinitarianism that God is His own nature. I can go further. I can argue that if ANYTHING has a nature then it is not and cannot be God. If your "God" has a nature, then your "God" is not a God. You might as well say a kitchen table is God. No matter sincerely someone believes their table is God, no kitchen table can be God. It is impossible.

Your "God," though, has a nature. So your "God" is not God. That's why I say you are both a polytheist and an atheist--a polytheist because you claim to believe in multiple gods, and an atheist because none of your gods are God at all. I argue all this in my book that people keep telling you to read. If you don't want to read through it, fine, but please either stop telling us that you don't believe in the Trinity when you haven't even talked once in this entire thread about the Trinity or else let somebody here explain to you what it is that we actually do believe so that you can decide if you accept or reject it.

[Kurieuo]

To be fair, Trinitarian concepts often merely attempt to get at truths in God's nature. That's all.

Jenna keeps making a mistake, imo, of trying to press into a working visual concept of God's nature. But, like I've said previous, we can't conceive of God anymore than a Tesseract (4D cube) which is far less complex. That said, we do have the working logic of God like we do a Tesseract, even if a visual conception can't be had.

Therefore, Jenna's main argument against the Trinity would come down to an unreasonable burden of proof. If we claim God is possible to visually conceive of God's pure "Godness", then by all means we should present visualisations of such. However, the best we can offer is Scripture and logic.