Hillsong

[Philip]

Must be the melting the ice in Ice!

It's GW! (God Warming!)

[melanie]

We love you Mel - your are our Forum sister we like to tease because you tease back
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Haha of course B.W
Reading through it gave me a laugh, a sense of humour is in my opinion priceless and you have to be able to have a laugh at yourself. That is why I love you guys..., the comical value

[IceMobster]

Philip: Ice, as someone who doesn't identify as being a Christian, you seem very enamored with Christ. IS He drawing YOU???!!!

IceMobster: Hopefully. He ain't drawing hard enough, I guess. Or I am not ready. I don't know. It's a stalemate.

Ice, what do you see as your biggest concern, per what you know about Christ and Christianity? Is there some further understanding or information that you see as critical to you coming to faith?

Well, you see, Philip, when I listen to some atheist intellectual I am closer to concluding how all of that (religion, Christianity,... Not God, though.) is bs. Another day, when I read or listen to some theologian, I am closer to concluding that Christ is God and that I am foolish for not accepting that yet.

Idk, it is the little things, like how all of the verses where Jesus supposedly claims divinity are in the Gospel of John. Like how we do not know what are the sources (apart from Mark) used by apostle Luke and Matthew. This (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rela ... els-en.svg) is the more sophisticated picture of the one I had in mind when I wrote the last sentence. Idk what is this "double tradition", though.
Like how Jesus supposedly in Matthew 12:32 says blasphemy against the HS will not be forgiven. Not only I am doomed, but many other people are. And apparently, I've got the wrong interpretation here (or so has been said to me and I probably do, but...) but what makes your interpretation correct or closer to the Truth or closer to what God had in mind than mine? Like, there are some texts which you can interpretate in various ways and Church interprets them how it fits them (not only the Catholic one....). That is what I dislike. Like, the story of creation of mankind was seen as normal and literal yet, as science progressed, theologians concluded it is a metaphor after all. The buy cloak and sword in Luke, are those literal swords allowing you to kill in self defense or no? I've read both that it is and that it is not. Conclusion? Only God knows what He wanted to say there, haha.
How many more texts/verses will be "converted" to being metaphors?.....


Credo ut intelligam, intelligo ut credam
or
Fides quaerens intellectum

At this point in time, I can simply not appease the two. What Jesus did (and how he got here in the first place) is against ratio. On the other hand, to believe God exists is not. And hence dumb are those who say religion/God and science can not go hand in hand. So, how do you complement the two? When is this preambula fidei going to end? Should it end? Is it all a bulls#it? I. Do. Not. Know.

Well, there is more. I suppose I should open a separate topic for that one, though.

Idk, man, all of Christianity is based on blind faith into the Word of God (and none of the denominations can fully agree what truly, or fully is the Word of God.... so which one got it right?). Blind faith is against reason.

Perhaps we should withhold judgement since we can not know for sure what is and whether that "Word of God" was truly what God wanted?

What of the other "Word of Allah" like Quran?... How and why are you certain Jesus is the absolute truth? Because Bible says so! Well, ........

Why send your Son if you can do the deed (save people from sin) without it (since God is omnipotent)?

Note I do not claim God is stupid or lazy, this is just an edgy muhsuperioratheisuuum101 picture of which I got reminded when I wrote the question.


The questions are endless, just as the reign of God is.
Fecisti nos ad te, Domine, et inquietum est cor nostrum donec requiescat in te!

[Kurieuo]

Ice,

My starting journey with a rational Christianity, was being surprised by prophecy I'd self-recognised. Prior to such, I never even knew such existed. I'm sure people had mentioned it prior, but in one ear and out the other. Then when I came across it for myself, I told a new Christian friend of mine what I saw (Alexander the Great), and he assured me I must be reading it wrong. So my next stop, was to pick up a commentary on the book of Daniel to see what Christian theologians thought.

Beside general prophecies, I wonder if you have investigated Messianic prophecies? I don't mean just read an article or two in passing, but really looked into them like you do other matters of belief. Here's one page I came across in a quick search, just as a starter.

Many Jewish people convert because of such they see how in their own Scriptures and religious practices,

• https://www.oneforisrael.org/ (many cool Jewish testimonies)
• https://www.jewsforjesus.com/ (I liked their older website, but should have good content still findable)

[Kurieuo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_I6AuilZ6M

Was that you Nessa at the hotel he went to in NZ?

[Nessa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_I6AuilZ6M

Was that you Nessa at the hotel he went to in NZ?

No, but they say everyone has a twin

Maybe I should have been a spy

[melanie]

Philip: Ice, as someone who doesn't identify as being a Christian, you seem very enamored with Christ. IS He drawing YOU???!!!

IceMobster: Hopefully. He ain't drawing hard enough, I guess. Or I am not ready. I don't know. It's a stalemate.

Ice, what do you see as your biggest concern, per what you know about Christ and Christianity? Is there some further understanding or information that you see as critical to you coming to faith?

Well, you see, Philip, when I listen to some atheist intellectual I am closer to concluding how all of that (religion, Christianity,... Not God, though.) is bs. Another day, when I read or listen to some theologian, I am closer to concluding that Christ is God and that I am foolish for not accepting that yet.

Idk, it is the little things, like how all of the verses where Jesus supposedly claims divinity are in the Gospel of John. Like how we do not know what are the sources (apart from Mark) used by apostle Luke and Matthew. This (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rela ... els-en.svg) is the more sophisticated picture of the one I had in mind when I wrote the last sentence. Idk what is this "double tradition", though.
Like how Jesus supposedly in Matthew 12:32 says blasphemy against the HS will not be forgiven. Not only I am doomed, but many other people are. And apparently, I've got the wrong interpretation here (or so has been said to me and I probably do, but...) but what makes your interpretation correct or closer to the Truth or closer to what God had in mind than mine? Like, there are some texts which you can interpretate in various ways and Church interprets them how it fits them (not only the Catholic one....). That is what I dislike. Like, the story of creation of mankind was seen as normal and literal yet, as science progressed, theologians concluded it is a metaphor after all. The buy cloak and sword in Luke, are those literal swords allowing you to kill in self defense or no? I've read both that it is and that it is not. Conclusion? Only God knows what He wanted to say there, haha.
How many more texts/verses will be "converted" to being metaphors?.....


Credo ut intelligam, intelligo ut credam
or
Fides quaerens intellectum

At this point in time, I can simply not appease the two. What Jesus did (and how he got here in the first place) is against ratio. On the other hand, to believe God exists is not. And hence dumb are those who say religion/God and science can not go hand in hand. So, how do you complement the two? When is this preambula fidei going to end? Should it end? Is it all a bulls#it? I. Do. Not. Know.

Well, there is more. I suppose I should open a separate topic for that one, though.

Idk, man, all of Christianity is based on blind faith into the Word of God (and none of the denominations can fully agree what truly, or fully is the Word of God.... so which one got it right?). Blind faith is against reason.

Perhaps we should withhold judgement since we can not know for sure what is and whether that "Word of God" was truly what God wanted?

What of the other "Word of Allah" like Quran?... How and why are you certain Jesus is the absolute truth? Because Bible says so! Well, ........

Why send your Son if you can do the deed (save people from sin) without it (since God is omnipotent)?

Note I do not claim God is stupid or lazy, this is just an edgy muhsuperioratheisuuum101 picture of which I got reminded when I wrote the question.


The questions are endless, just as the reign of God is.
Fecisti nos ad te, Domine, et inquietum est cor nostrum donec requiescat in te!

Ice it comes down to faith.
It can't be documented in absolutes and for all the answers there remains a ton of questions. If it was purely an intellectual question then the world's smartest would be on board.
It's okay to be unsure and have questions, religion is mans path to understanding God. It's flawed, not due to failures or insincerity but because of the enormity of the trying to discern God which lends itself to all kinds of interpretation.
Within that lies personal conviction.
Is it any more crazy to believe your own heartfelt beliefs over what we are told??
Faith is personal.
It's a belief, that belief can be unsure, wavering, questioning, intermediate, that was why Jesus died tortured on a cross.
Not so we could feel guilty or pressured by religion but because we are flawed, beceause as He hung next to criminals He wanted us to know that we are forgiven.
That level of love and sacrifice is written in us.
Knowledge comes in different forms but innately we know what goodness is, even if we don't have a name for it.
It's all leading us home.
He doesn't ask for much just a grain of faith, of hope, of love.
A loving God wants us and if He was willing to send us a perfect Son then He's willing to accept a non perfect one with a little faith.
If we ask then we receive.

[melanie]

Philip: Ice, as someone who doesn't identify as being a Christian, you seem very enamored with Christ. IS He drawing YOU???!!!

IceMobster: Hopefully. He ain't drawing hard enough, I guess. Or I am not ready. I don't know. It's a stalemate.

Ice, what do you see as your biggest concern, per what you know about Christ and Christianity? Is there some further understanding or information that you see as critical to you coming to faith?

Well, you see, Philip, when I listen to some atheist intellectual I am closer to concluding how all of that (religion, Christianity,... Not God, though.) is bs. Another day, when I read or listen to some theologian, I am closer to concluding that Christ is God and that I am foolish for not accepting that yet.

Idk, it is the little things, like how all of the verses where Jesus supposedly claims divinity are in the Gospel of John. Like how we do not know what are the sources (apart from Mark) used by apostle Luke and Matthew. This (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rela ... els-en.svg) is the more sophisticated picture of the one I had in mind when I wrote the last sentence. Idk what is this "double tradition", though.
Like how Jesus supposedly in Matthew 12:32 says blasphemy against the HS will not be forgiven. Not only I am doomed, but many other people are. And apparently, I've got the wrong interpretation here (or so has been said to me and I probably do, but...) but what makes your interpretation correct or closer to the Truth or closer to what God had in mind than mine? Like, there are some texts which you can interpretate in various ways and Church interprets them how it fits them (not only the Catholic one....). That is what I dislike. Like, the story of creation of mankind was seen as normal and literal yet, as science progressed, theologians concluded it is a metaphor after all. The buy cloak and sword in Luke, are those literal swords allowing you to kill in self defense or no? I've read both that it is and that it is not. Conclusion? Only God knows what He wanted to say there, haha.
How many more texts/verses will be "converted" to being metaphors?.....


Credo ut intelligam, intelligo ut credam
or
Fides quaerens intellectum

At this point in time, I can simply not appease the two. What Jesus did (and how he got here in the first place) is against ratio. On the other hand, to believe God exists is not. And hence dumb are those who say religion/God and science can not go hand in hand. So, how do you complement the two? When is this preambula fidei going to end? Should it end? Is it all a bulls#it? I. Do. Not. Know.

Well, there is more. I suppose I should open a separate topic for that one, though.

Idk, man, all of Christianity is based on blind faith into the Word of God (and none of the denominations can fully agree what truly, or fully is the Word of God.... so which one got it right?). Blind faith is against reason.

Perhaps we should withhold judgement since we can not know for sure what is and whether that "Word of God" was truly what God wanted?

What of the other "Word of Allah" like Quran?... How and why are you certain Jesus is the absolute truth? Because Bible says so! Well, ........

Why send your Son if you can do the deed (save people from sin) without it (since God is omnipotent)?

Note I do not claim God is stupid or lazy, this is just an edgy muhsuperioratheisuuum101 picture of which I got reminded when I wrote the question.


The questions are endless, just as the reign of God is.
Fecisti nos ad te, Domine, et inquietum est cor nostrum donec requiescat in te!

Ice it comes down to faith.
It can't be documented in absolutes and for all the answers there remains a ton of questions. If it was purely an intellectual question then the world's smartest would be on board.
It's okay to be unsure and have questions, religion is mans path to understanding God. It's flawed, not due to failures or insincerity but because of the enormity of the trying to discern God which lends itself to all kinds of interpretation.
Within that lies personal conviction.
Is it any more crazy to believe your own heartfelt beliefs over what we are told??
Faith is personal.
It's a belief, that belief can be unsure, wavering, questioning, intermediate, that was why Jesus died tortured on a cross.
Not so we could feel guilty or pressured by religion but because we are flawed, beceause as He hung next to criminals He wanted us to know that we are forgiven.
That level of love and sacrifice is written in us.
Knowledge comes in different forms but innately we know what goodness is, even if we don't have a name for it.
It's all leading us home.
He doesn't ask for much just a grain of faith, of hope, of love.
A loving God wants us and if He was willing to send us a perfect Son then He's willing to accept a non perfect one with a little faith.
If we ask then we receive.

[Philip]

Ice - pay close attention to what Mel just said, above. It is with the heart and mind we must seek God. And He draws those and rewards those who truly seek Him. He's only delayed or prevented by people's resistant wills. There comes a time, when a person knows enough, to step out in faith to accept Jesus.

Think of how much God wanted forgive us - by being born into a dangerous world, knowing fully the hideous death Jesus would suffer, and willing doing something that makes every human who truly realizes what He went through, shudder and weep.