The rest of us are more attuned just waiting for you lot to catch up
![Smile :esmile:](./images/smilies/icon_e_smile.gif)
That's my point Philip. We are too flawed and too biased to hand down such a penalty.Philip wrote:Mel, the second article goes through the NT passages relevant to the issue - so, ignore the NT if you wish - but I hope you wouldn't refer to passages taken from God's word as "B.S."
And, the OT passages, including ones like Exodus 21:12 (""He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death."), came from God Himself. So, to declare the practice as hideous and unrighteous, is to declare GOD unrighteous. Now, does God CHANGE? Course not. But He has changed His directives to His people, over time, per His intentions and purposes for certain times. So, the question becomes, do the NT directives change the OT ones concerning the death penalty. Does Christ or the Apostles ever change teachings about it? Did they ever condemn it. These should be our guide in the matter. I can understand that this is a highly emotional issue, but we shouldn't use our emotions to gauge the truth of Scripture. But I do have serious concerns about how this is carried out.
Given what I've written and posted on this, one might be surprised to realize that I DO have a problem with the death penalty, at least as it is carried out in the U.S. And that is, it isn't always meted out fairly. There are problems with our system. Rich people often avoid it - not always, but certainly more so. Ultimately, if we can't have key controls and equitable treatment for all, then I would be fine with life sentences for those who commit premeditated murder.
It's a really hard topic Annette and with so much grey as you said.Storyteller wrote:Firstly... Mel, thank you for sharing about your ectopic pregnancy, it's cases like yours that, if anything does, makes me feel that in some situations abortion is justified. It is such a hard topic to address, so many shades of grey, it's hard to define what is right.
Re the Downs Syndrome babies, there is absolutely NO way I, personally, could abort. For me, it starts on the path almost of designer babies. How can you abort your child just because they have Downs? Don't get me wrong, I know how tough life can be for all concerned, living with Downs, but the love and joy for me outweighs that. My cousin has Downs, he is thekindest, gentlest,funniest guy I have ever had thehonour to know.
Ectopic pregnancies are different to me than abortions, evtopic pregnancies can't go full term and guarntee the death of yhe child and severely risk the mothers. Abortion where the baby has absolutely no chance of survival AND endangers the mother are a lot hardr to condemn.
Is it hypocritical to say in extreme cases abortion may be the right decision yet fundamentally disagree with abortion?
I suppose the difference between a baby dying because God didn't intervene and save the baby to abortion is the very fact one is deemed right by God, for whatever reason and one isn't.
I still think you can disagree with the action of abortion but realistically each case has to be taken on it's own merit.
When I had my daughter, they wanted to induce her as I started having contractions early, I refused (and I wasn't a Christian then) because there was a small risk she'd die, if yhey didn't induce her, there was a small risk I would. She was eventually born at 38 weeks, naturally, and is everything I dreamed of and more.
Compare that to a friend of mine, she chose to induce, the baby died and she can now not have children.
I respect any womans decision to have an abortion because it's her right but if it is a simple for or against abortion, I would say I'm against.
Annette your heart is gorgeous!Storyteller wrote:I have a really simplistic view on the death penalty..
We are doing exactly what we are condeming.
Murdering.
I am open to discussion and will willingly concede I'm wrong if I can be shown why.
Philip, in that verse, does God say who he will be put to death by?
This is where I lack in not knowing the Bible well, aren't there verses like "an eye for an eye" but then "turn the other cheek"
Regarding the death penalty, who decides? What if the wrong man is put to death? What about forgiveness? Him who is without sin cast the first stone, etc?
My heart is anti death penalty, anti abortion, anti killing. Convince me I'm wrong.
Annette, READ through the links, which discuss the related Scriptures. The SCRIPTURES speak to the government putting a murderer to death. But an individual is not to apply such justice. Murder is a crime A) against God and B) against a society that REVERES life (or that should). The death of a murderer by the state is a response of justice, which is clear in the OT, and is re-enforced in the NT. And this punishment does not mean God doesn't love the murderer and is unwilling to save one repentant and of faith in Christ. It doesn't mean WE are to hate the murderer either, although we detest his crime. But please read through the links and the Scriptures it references as key. There ARE commands of God that are for a period - even for key people. But there are also mandates for all societies and all times.Story: I am open to discussion and will willingly concede I'm wrong if I can be shown why.
Philip, in that verse, does God say who he will be put to death by?
Another typical liberal who doesn't pay attention to the facts.melanie wrote:What load a shite!!
I back it up with Jesus, I run with Jesus and I end it with Jesus.
I have no need to convict anyone of anything.
ITAlICS don't help or persuasive arguments, I honestly believe that truth is what sets us free. Show me a man worthy of convicting another to death then I might start to be convinced.
All I see is A sinner, judging a sinner and convicting a sinner.
Nothing divine in that process just a bloke having a go.
How ultimately insulting that you believe your repressive. Internationally illegal laws are justified.
Just when I thought Americans were maybe reasonable.
Maybe you want to take back your hypocrisy? Railing against Philip for that, while you wrongly judge him for something he doesn't even hold to.Given what I've written and posted on this, one might be surprised to realize that I DO have a problem with the death penalty, at least as it is carried out in the U.S. And that is, it isn't always meted out fairly. There are problems with our system. Rich people often avoid it - not always, but certainly more so. Ultimately, if we can't have key controls and equitable treatment for all, then I would be fine with life sentences for those who commit premeditated murder.
Ohh really RickRickD wrote:Another typical liberal who doesn't pay attention to the facts.melanie wrote:What load a shite!!
I back it up with Jesus, I run with Jesus and I end it with Jesus.
I have no need to convict anyone of anything.
ITAlICS don't help or persuasive arguments, I honestly believe that truth is what sets us free. Show me a man worthy of convicting another to death then I might start to be convinced.
All I see is A sinner, judging a sinner and convicting a sinner.
Nothing divine in that process just a bloke having a go.
How ultimately insulting that you believe your repressive. Internationally illegal laws are justified.
Just when I thought Americans were maybe reasonable.
Especially after philip wrote:Maybe you want to take back your hypocrisy? Railing against Philip for that, while you wrongly judge him for something he doesn't even hold to.Given what I've written and posted on this, one might be surprised to realize that I DO have a problem with the death penalty, at least as it is carried out in the U.S. And that is, it isn't always meted out fairly. There are problems with our system. Rich people often avoid it - not always, but certainly more so. Ultimately, if we can't have key controls and equitable treatment for all, then I would be fine with life sentences for those who commit premeditated murder.
Good job being a sinner judging a sinner.
Just when I thought liberalism in America was bad.