Are You Really a Progressive Liberal?

[Kurieuo]

I really think the "conservatives" tend to be more progressive today.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiVQ8vrGA_8

[edwardmurphy]

He basically took all of the worst from the entire liberal spectrum and compared it to all of the best from the entire conservative spectrum as if that was apples to apples. Yes, there can be a lot of intolerance on the left, and as you move further from the center it gets a lot worse. But the exact same thing can be said of the right.

Regarding the "not in my bakery" argument, that's [nonsense]. The progressive ideal is equal rights for all, and there's no religious exception. The "I'm a Christian and Jesus says I can/don't have to" argument has been used to justify all kinds of prejudice. Prejudice against homosexuals is just the latest iteration. If you hang up a shingle and call yourself a cake-monger the expectation in our society is that you'll sell a cake to anybody who wants to buy one. There is literally no difference between "I don't approve of mixed-race marriages so I won't sell you a cake for your wedding" and "I don't approve of gay marriage so I won't sell you a cake for your wedding." If the latter is okay then so is the former, and if it's not then shut up and bake the damned cake.

[Kurieuo]

He basically took all of the worst from the entire liberal spectrum and compared it to all of the best from the entire conservative spectrum as if that was apples to apples. Yes, there can be a lot of intolerance on the left, and as you move further from the center it gets a lot worse. But the exact same thing can be said of the right.

Regarding the "not in my bakery" argument, that's [nonsense]. The progressive ideal is equal rights for all, and there's no religious exception. The "I'm a Christian and Jesus says I can/don't have to" argument has been used to justify all kinds of prejudice. Prejudice against homosexuals is just the latest iteration. If you hang up a shingle and call yourself a cake-monger the expectation in our society is that you'll sell a cake to anybody who wants to buy one. There is literally no difference between "I don't approve of mixed-race marriages so I won't sell you a cake for your wedding" and "I don't approve of gay marriage so I won't sell you a cake for your wedding." If the latter is okay then so is the former, and if it's not then shut up and bake the damned cake.

Yes, well, I was wanting to know how "liberal" you are, and I do think see even with the cake example, that you're quite regressive. I'm sure you have similar sentiments to nuns being legally made to support abortions. Anything you value, others ought to support even if they strongly disagree.

The thing with baking a cake for a gay marriage (or icing a message as was the case), is that unlike the gay couple just going elsewhere or making it themselves, they're attempting to force someone (Muslim, Christian, other) to do something against their conscience via threat. There is no forcing however on part of cake baker in simply choosing to not do something.

I don't see you as a true libertarian Ed, not even a liberal. Sure, you share liberal ideas and are no doubt well-intended in many, but as I've seen you post.... the aggressiveness with which you hold them and want Christians to just shut up and go along with your status quo, I see comparisons to be made with how the Catholic church branded groups and people heretics long in the past.

What a heretic (bigot, prejudiced, etc all of which are surely heretical in today's society) a cake baker is to not bake a cake for someone due to their values. Screw them, we'll force them to make it anyway or ensure they burn.

[RickD]

Prager has some of the best videos out there.

[Kurieuo]

Prager had an interesting discussion with Rubin after about such.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owGVo_vCA9g

[Philip]

Ed: Yes, there can be a lot of intolerance on the left, and as you move further from the center it gets a lot worse. But the exact same thing can be said of the right.

I agree. And the far right and the far left, really, in many ways, they aren't very far apart in their destructiveness and extreme views.

Ed: Regarding the "not in my bakery" argument, that's [nonsense]. The progressive ideal is equal rights for all, and there's no religious exception. The "I'm a Christian and Jesus says I can/don't have to" argument has been used to justify all kinds of prejudice. Prejudice against homosexuals is just the latest iteration. If you hang up a shingle and call yourself a cake-monger the expectation in our society is that you'll sell a cake to anybody who wants to buy one. There is literally no difference between "I don't approve of mixed-race marriages so I won't sell you a cake for your wedding" and "I don't approve of gay marriage so I won't sell you a cake for your wedding." If the latter is okay then so is the former, and if it's not then shut up and bake the damned cake.

OK, so a black baker makes cakes, but a group of outlaw bikers want it decorated with Confederate flags: Bake the cake!
A baker is a staunch abortion supporter, and an adoption agency wants a cake celebrating life, decorated with "Everyone has a right to God's gift of life," and with little babies all over it. Bake the cake. A Jewish baker is asked to decorate a cake with swastikas. Bake the cake! Bakers are staunch democrats, a young Republicans group wants a cake with Hillary and other top Democrats in devil caricatures. Or they want a photo of Trump, with the caption, "Our nightmare is over, finally a leader who speaks the truth" on it. Bake the cake. An anti-gay marriage group wants "married" gay bakers to create a giant cake with the words, "Marriage: One man, one woman, the way God intended it," on it. Bake it! Muslim bakers are asked to bake a "Happy Birthday Jesus" cake - with the Inscription, There is ONE Christian God: Father, Son and Spirit!" Bake it! In each incident, people with extremely offensive values to the bakers are forcing them to contribute to what seriously goes against the bakers' values. Easy way out, that respects all. All must sell everyone a cake, but also have the right to make them go elsewhere for any offending messages, or make them create the messages on their own. For most, the far more typical situation is that there are other bakers who will accommodate them. If NO baker will - well, perhaps there are things so offensive to everyone that they will have to created the message themselves.

Almost everyone who gets jacked up about something a private business owner will not do, that is willing to go to court, is mostly concerned with whatever agenda they have. Almost always, they could get the service elsewhere, but they go to court because of their agenda - and their wish to cause serious financial harm people who have different values than they do. So they aren't willing to tolerate people amongst us who have different values than they do. They don't respect the conscience of other people. Typical of liberals - but not only of liberals.

[Hortator]

Ed: Yes, there can be a lot of intolerance on the left, and as you move further from the center it gets a lot worse. But the exact same thing can be said of the right.

Philip: I agree. And the far right and the far left, really, in many ways, they aren't very far apart in their destructiveness and extreme views.

My friend had one of the best quotes for people who take far-right ideologies too far: "They [anarchists] have gone so far to the right they have wrapped and around and become communists."

[edwardmurphy]

Yes, well, I was wanting to know how "liberal" you are, and I do think see even with the cake example, that you're quite regressive. I'm sure you have similar sentiments to nuns being legally made to support abortions. Anything you value, others ought to support even if they strongly disagree.

Regressive...

Nice. I love the buzz-word thing.

Anyway, if we're talking about whether or not the nuns should get a line-item veto on their employees' healthcare plans, I don't think that they should. I'm aware that in their minds allowing their employees insurance coverage that includes the morning after pill amounts to directly facilitating abortion, but I find that argument unconvincing. An employee's reproductive healthcare choices aren't the employer's concern.

The thing with baking a cake for a gay marriage (or icing a message as was the case), is that unlike the gay couple just going elsewhere or making it themselves, they're attempting to force someone (Muslim, Christian, other) to do something against their conscience via threat. There is no forcing however on part of cake baker in simply choosing to not do something.

I don't know the case with icing a message. I actually don't mind if people choose not to write a message they find offensive. In the case I'm aware of there was no message, just a cake. The baker declined to make the cake if it was going to be served at a gay wedding. I don't think that's any of the baker's business.

Anyway, I understand your position. You empathize with the baker and feel that the gay couple should stop whining and find a different bakery.

By comparison, I empathize with the people who walked in to buy a cake to celebrate a joyous occasion, were turned away because the baker disapproved of their lifestyle, and were mad as Hell about it. Can you understand my perspective, or am I just "regressive"?

I don't see you as a true libertarian Ed, not even a liberal. Sure, you share liberal ideas and are no doubt well-intended in many, but as I've seen you post.... the aggressiveness with which you hold them and want Christians to just shut up and go along with your status quo, I see comparisons to be made with how the Catholic church branded groups and people heretics long in the past.

I'm not a libertarian.

As far as the aggressiveness with which I sometimes state my position, it has a lot to do with the venue. Both of my brothers-in-law are conservative Christians, and we have no problem at all having civil conversations about literally anything. Things are a bit different here.

What a heretic (bigot, prejudiced, etc all of which are surely heretical in today's society) a cake baker is to not bake a cake for someone due to their values. Screw them, we'll force them to make it anyway or ensure they burn.

What entitled fools that gay couple were to walk into a bakery expecting to buy a wedding cake. They should know better than to expect to be treated like any other couple. Why can't they just quit whining and go to a baker who'll work with their kind...?

[Kurieuo]

Small businesses are often an extension of the person and their passion, not the other way around.

Here is the cake baker story I was referring to:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMn3WycWJsg

When someone's freedom to do what they see is right is threatened, where such isn't physically harmful to the life of another person, then everyone's freedom is threatened. As you say, you're not libertarian so whether or not you agree would depend upon in what way you're not.

In some respects I'm not, yet I do highly value people freedom to express themselves, even if it offends others. You may have some who deplorably do so, you may have some that are more courteous of others, nonetheless I value free choice and expression curtailed by the life of no one else being harmed.

[SoCalExile]

[B. W.]

Small businesses are often an extension of the person and their passion, not the other way around.

Here is the cake baker story I was referring to:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMn3WycWJsg

When someone's freedom to do what they see is right is threatened, where such isn't physically harmful to the life of another person, then everyone's freedom is threatened. As you say, you're not libertarian so whether or not you agree would depend upon in what way you're not.

In some respects I'm not, yet I do highly value people freedom to express themselves, even if it offends others. You may have some who deplorably do so, you may have some that are more courteous of others, nonetheless I value free choice and expression curtailed by the life of no one else being harmed.

Yes K true...

People have a right of expression even when it offends as Ed's avatar picture is extremely offensive:

The Black and white flag ISIS colors and the swords that flayed fish whcih in the early church the fish symbol was used to denote Jesus.

Yes, highly offensive but he has the right to use it.

However according to his world view, none of us have rights to voice but only the right to be flayed...

I wonder if the Roman Catholic Church took over the world and made a law that forced Ed to attend Mass or else, would Ed object on grounds of conscience and break the law? Would he die hardily accept going to Mass?

In the world of moral relativism where there is no right or wrong to go by other than whim of public opinion then if such a switch occurred how would folks like Ed be like to be forced out of business, lose their jobs, pay taxes for things they disagree with?

Such folks as Ed, well... enough said...
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[Philip]

Ed: I actually don't mind if people choose not to write a message they find offensive.

Great, too bad so many with a leftist or pro-gay agenda don't agree with you.

Ed: The baker declined to make the cake if it was going to be served at a gay wedding. I don't think that's any of the baker's business.

This I agree with - lest we put our own litmus test to everyone we sell a product or service. AS LONG AS, the product or the service itself isn't somehow offensive. Obviously, the product wouldn't be, but the service offered, depending upon what was requested, could be, depending.

Ed: Anyway, I understand your position. You empathize with the baker and feel that the gay couple should stop whining and find a different bakery.

That's common sense!

Ed: I empathize with the people who walked in to buy a cake to celebrate a joyous occasion, were turned away because the baker disapproved of their lifestyle ...

Again, a different issue - that's not for the baker to determine. But there ARE times when a product normally sold SHOULD be refused on a moral basis: Weapons broker sells side arms to local police or security firms. Gang members wearing their colors come in and want to by some Glocks. NO!

Ed: What entitled fools that gay couple were to walk into a bakery expecting to buy a wedding cake. They should know better than to expect to be treated like any other couple. Why can't they just quit whining and go to a baker who'll work with their kind...?

Of course, depends upon what they request