Did Obama wiretap Trump?

[Philip]

Why haven't key media organizations hired several independent firms for such analysis? Or have they?

[DBowling]

Why haven't key media organizations hired several independent firms for such analysis? Or have they?

I can only speculate, but I'm guessing that they do not consider Arpaio's assertions to be credible enough to merit spending money on further investigations.

I went surfing to see if I could find a point by point refutation of Arpaio's claims.
I am sure there are other sites with the same or similar information, but this one does an excellent job of using images from the two documents to show that items that were allegedly copied from one document to another are actually very different when examined more closely than I did.

http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2016/12/ ... e-closely/
you can click on the links throughout the article to compare and contrast images from the two documents.

One of the most obvious examples is comparing the word Oahu in box 6b of both documents.
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2016/12/ ... tificates/

[Kurieuo]

It's a conspiracy myth against the positive evidence presented that the certificate wasn't analysed by independent experts. FORLAB in Italy is independent, has no axe to grind nor would want to risk their reputation: http://www.forlab.org/en/ (there's a link to one of your "persons" DB).

Again, for those who don't know the story of how this unfolded.

The lead investigator Mike Zullo was commissioned by the Sheriff (Arpaio) to look into Obama's certificate. Zullo claims he was just wanting to put the birther issue to rest once and for all since the investigation had dragged on and on. As I understand from what was said, Zullo sent the suspected certificate source and Obama's certificate to his friend Mark Gillar, a Democrat supporter who twice voted for Obama. Gillar was asked to look over it since he dealt with digitised images.

To Zullo's apparent surprise, Gillar reported back that parts of Obama's certificate do appear to be copied from the source certificate -- this guy is the one Zullo mentioned put that copy and paste example in the video together to help present the findings to lay people. After receiving his friend's opinion that the source certificate was indeed a source for Obama's with certain portions copied and paste, Zullo then sent the certificates to two independent forensic experts.

One was some guy called Reed Hayes, a court-qualified handwriting and document examiner, who runs a business in Hawaii. The other was a professional independent organisation located in Italy called FORLAB.

Reeds concluded after that the certificate was without a doubt a forgery. FORLAB's conclusion was that the probability of Obama's certificate being a forgery, based upon the other birth certificates received for comparative analysis, was 99.9% (in other words there's a 1 in 1000 chance Obama's certificate is legit).

Those who reject this very strong evidence, it feels rather familiar how their minds are already made up. Akin to YECs (no offense to them) who are skeptical of all science that shows an old earth and universe. One day, perhaps the science will magically turn in their favour and support their interpretation of what they are convinced of is true. Perhaps some other "experts" out there will find "the real truth". I'll just say to you now DB, believe whatever makes you feel happy.

[DBowling]

I'll just say to you now DB, believe whatever makes you feel happy.

K, I really do have a lot of respect for you...
But when you say snarky things like this, my inner Trump has this overwhelming desire to respond to snark with snark...
...as I did earlier...

So I will give in to my darker impulses and return the favor again...
"I'll just say to you now K, believe whatever makes you feel happy"

[Kurieuo]

DB, as an exercise, I took a look at the certificates myself PDF low-quality copies found at your link (Ah'Nees and Obama's).

The date stamps, I couldn't confirm while the 1961 seems suspicious. The X in "6d box" in An'Nees seems could be copied to Obama's in 6d and 7e. The 'X' in 7e in particular on Obama's looked suspicious. In An'Nee's 6d X the right top seems a bit malformed as it meshes in with the comma above. Interestingly, on Obama's, the 'X' in 7e. is move a pixel or two to the left, but possesses a similar malformation.

I personally wouldn't be realistically confident concluding a copy did in fact happen, however would be suspicious given my examination. Passing it onto those with greater experience would be the logical thing to do given an investigation was opened on such.

FORLAB's findings weren't publicly released, but passed to somewhere internal. When publicly released, I assume at some point they will be, I'd expect more particulars to be known.

Otherwise, we've got a suspicious certificate that has been declared inauthentic by one expert, and 99.9% probability of forgery by FORLAB. I'd defer to such experts who were able to examine much more closely.

[Kurieuo]

I'll just say to you now DB, believe whatever makes you feel happy.

K, I really do have a lot of respect for you...
But when you say snarky things like this, my inner Trump has this overwhelming desire to respond to snark with snark...
...as I did earlier...

So I will give in to my darker impulses and return the favor again...
"I'll just say to you now K, believe whatever makes you feel happy"

I'd have thought the YEC blow would have been taken as more snarky given your Day-Ageness.

And, I will believe what I believe! Though, I really couldn't actually care less about Obama or his certificate whether it was forged or not. I'd be happy either way, but when I see a duck I can become pedantic when others think it's not.

[DBowling]

DB, as an exercise, I took a look at the certificates myself PDF low-quality copies found at your link (Ah'Nees and Obama's).

The date stamps, I couldn't confirm while the 1961 seems suspicious. The X in "6d box" in An'Nees seems could be copied to Obama's in 6d and 7e. The 'X' in 7e in particular on Obama's looked suspicious. In An'Nee's 6d X the right top seems a bit malformed as it meshes in with the comma above. Interestingly, on Obama's, the 'X' in 7e. is move a pixel or two to the left, but possesses a similar malformation.

I personally wouldn't be realistically confident concluding a copy did in fact happen, however would be suspicious given my examination.

Would you agree that the dissimilarities involving the word Oahu in box 6b in both documents is definitive proof that the copying theory "as described in the video" did not happen?

[Kurieuo]

I was more looking at "type" when I examined what I did previously.

The rotated angles though, on the date stamps as mentioned in the video look similar (I thought it was claiming more than angles). Note, different dates don't matter as evidently the "days" are different, but these can be superimposed from elsewhere. It can be a portion of the date copied, for which angles can't change. Placement and positioning is important, so-as to not contradict the green lines at the back which help to prevent pure copy-and-paste forgery.

When I get more time later, as got to do other things, I'll overlay one certificate on top of the other both size adjusted and rotated the same to be as precise as possible. Listen to the video as to what is mentioned. Then do some comparisons and report back.

[abelcainsbrother]

My,My,My! Things have changed so much since just yesterday.Now we know this whole Russia thing was a lie that the media is now backtracking on.And we know that it was our rogue CIA that was trying to make it look like Russia was involved in our election all so that the Trump admonistration could be blamed for it.So it was all a lie to smear the Trump administration as I have been saying for the whole time.This is what liberals do and it is really the only tactic they have to win politically.But we also now know that Trump's tower was indeed wire-tapped just as Trump said.This wiretapping scandal is now far bigger than watergate and alot of these people are going to with they never attacked Trump this way.Trump is a genius politically.He knew exactly what was coming when he put out that Tweet and now these Dem's are gonna pay.

[Hortator]

It's important to note that Obama HIMSELF did not order the wiretapping. There was no memo or paper trail. His lackeys don't have to be told what to do, they knew what they signed up for.

[abelcainsbrother]

My,My,My! Things have changed so much since just yesterday.Now we know this whole Russia thing was a lie that the media is now backtracking on.And we know that it was our rogue CIA that was trying to make it look like Russia was involved in our election all so that the Trump administration could be blamed for it.So it was all a lie to smear the Trump administration as I have been saying for the whole time.This is what liberals do and it is really the only tactic they have to win politically.But we also now know that Trump's tower was indeed wire-tapped just as Trump said.This wiretapping scandal is now far bigger than watergate and alot of these people are going to wish they never attacked Trump this way.Trump is a genius politically.He knew exactly what was coming when he put out that Tweet and now these Dem's are gonna pay.

[DBowling]

But we also now know that Trump's tower was indeed wire-tapped just as Trump said.This wiretapping scandal is now far bigger than watergate

In the world of Trumpian 'alternative facts' ... maybe...

But in the real world there is no evidence that Trump was wiretapped, and if there is no evidence of a wiretap then of course there is no evidence that Obama ordered a wiretap.

[edwardmurphy]

Not sure what you're talking about Abe. I haven't seen any of that.

Regarding wire tapping, sorry, but there's just no way that that's true. It seems like Sideshow Don read a Breitbart article about a conspiracy theory and had one of his unfortunate Twitter-fits. Calling for Congress to investigate is Don's way of trying to duck the issue. If there was evidence of the wire tapping then S.D. has the power to tell the Justice Department to release it or to release it himself. If it's classified he has the authority to declassify it and release it. He's not doing that because the initial claim was a lie and he has nothing to back it up.

This also puts a big dent in the genius theory. I'm not sure that a genius would try to distract us from his campaign's communication with the Russian government by telling a huge and obvious lie about his predecessor. It makes him look unstable.

The other thing I've been thinking about is the issue of diminishing returns. We're less that 2 months into his presidency and he's already accusing Obama of committing a felony in order to distract the media from whatever he's trying to hide? If he has to go that big this early what will he need to do to distract them in 6 months? It's frightening to contemplate, actually, and the prospect of a Pence presidency is going to make it hard to enjoy the impeachment proceedings. Oh well...

[Kurieuo]

If there was a war between the CIA and Trump, who'd win?

PS. No wire tap necessary, since just about everyone is apparently tapped anyway.

[edwardmurphy]

Hang on there. We have two pieces of information.

1) There's no evidence that Obama wire tapped Trump.

2) The CIA has the ability to do all kinds of sneaky cyber warfare stuff. (Not sure why that's being treated as a revelation.)

You (and Abe and Infowars) seem to be saying that #1 is irrelevant because of #2 so it logically follows that Trump needs no proof and Obama did it.

That's tin foil hat territory, K.