Did Obama wiretap Trump?

[RickD]

Can we back up a bit here?

Last I checked the speculation on whether or not Obama ordered the wire tap was premature, since there's no proof that Trump Tower was ever even wire tapped. You have to prove that a thing happened before you can decide who to blame for that thing.

Thank You for pointing out that small overlooked detail!

The New York Times says otherwise. At least that Trump's communications were looked at.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/19/u ... amp_js_v=7

I was unable to find anything in the article about wiretapping... which is the specific accusation that Trump made.

Maybe I've missed something, but I am unaware of any evidence that Trump, Trump Tower, or his campaign were ever wiretapped.

In the first sentence:"intercepted communications".

[abelcainsbrother]

Can we back up a bit here?

Last I checked the speculation on whether or not Obama ordered the wire tap was premature, since there's no proof that Trump Tower was ever even wire tapped. You have to prove that a thing happened before you can decide who to blame for that thing.

Thank You for pointing out that small overlooked detail!

The New York Times says otherwise. At least that Trump's communications were looked at.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/19/u ... amp_js_v=7

I was unable to find anything in the article about wiretapping... which is the specific accusation that Trump made.

Maybe I've missed something, but I am unaware of any evidence that Trump, Trump Tower, or his campaign were ever wiretapped.

Are you playing word semantics? Intercepted communications = wiretapping,but not just that. The CIA has all kinds of ways to spy on you without you even knowing.They can hack into your computer,turn on your camera and mic and see and listen while you are totally unaware,they can even spy on you through your own TV.There are many ways they can spy on you.This is Mark of the beast technology.

[DBowling]

Can we back up a bit here?

Last I checked the speculation on whether or not Obama ordered the wire tap was premature, since there's no proof that Trump Tower was ever even wire tapped. You have to prove that a thing happened before you can decide who to blame for that thing.

Thank You for pointing out that small overlooked detail!

The New York Times says otherwise. At least that Trump's communications were looked at.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/19/u ... amp_js_v=7

I was unable to find anything in the article about wiretapping... which is the specific accusation that Trump made.

Maybe I've missed something, but I am unaware of any evidence that Trump, Trump Tower, or his campaign were ever wiretapped.

In the first sentence:"intercepted communications".

Which does not mean Trump, Trump Tower, or the Trump Campaign was ever wiretapped... again there is no evidence for that.

You are focusing on the wrong end of the communication link.

The people who were being monitored by the intelligence community were the Russians.
The Russians were and should have been monitored. Especially after their hacking of American citizens, American Political institutions and their interference in the United States Presidential election.

The reason communications were intercepted is because Trump's folks were communicating with people who we were monitoring... ie the Russians.

BTW... as wrong as he is on so many things, Trump was right to protest the leaks of contacts between his people and the Russians. Those leaks were illegal.

[Kurieuo]

Side Question: What did Russia ever do to America to get so stigmatised as its arch nemesis?

A point attempted to be made in my first post seems validated. You believe in the Russian hacks based upon ... no evidence presented. You believe the CIA, which also said Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. It is perhaps the biggest organisation of information manipulation out there.

Yet, more has even been presented for the plausibility of a wiretap done under Obama's watch. Further, more has been presented against the legitimacy of Obama's birth certificate and you do not believe. What I'm saying here, is not whether you're right or wrong -- but at least see your strong bias.

[Philip]

OK, fellas, all of this is pointless speculation until more info becomes available. But Obama's directive of sharing intelligence at the last days of his presidency - whether nefarious or just plain idiotic, the results could well be the same. The wider the sharing of info, the far greater issue of dangerous leaks.

K: Side Question: What did Russia ever do to America to get so stigmatized as its arch nemesis?

K, I was with you until you asked the above question. Really, the Russian government has always been almost a partnership between the Russian mob and the KGB - actually, they aren't easy to separate as to who is who. NEVER should they be trusted!

[Kurieuo]

K: Side Question: What did Russia ever do to America to get so stigmatized as its arch nemesis?

K, I was with you until you asked the above question. Really, the Russian government has always been almost a partnership between the Russian mob and the KGB - actually, they aren't easy to separate as to who is who. NEVER should they be trusted!

Despite the spy vs spy thing, Russia was on our side in world wars. More Russians died in the world war than any other nation. If anything, the most harm they've done, historically, is to themselves under the Soviet years, but they're over.

I do not believe Russia is as bad as we're all fed. In fact, if observation counts for anything, I see the US-Coalition causing the most destruction in the world.

[abelcainsbrother]

Thank You for pointing out that small overlooked detail!

The New York Times says otherwise. At least that Trump's communications were looked at.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/19/u ... amp_js_v=7

I was unable to find anything in the article about wiretapping... which is the specific accusation that Trump made.

Maybe I've missed something, but I am unaware of any evidence that Trump, Trump Tower, or his campaign were ever wiretapped.

In the first sentence:"intercepted communications".

Which does not mean Trump, Trump Tower, or the Trump Campaign was ever wiretapped... again there is no evidence for that.

You are focusing on the wrong end of the communication link.

The people who were being monitored by the intelligence community were the Russians.
The Russians were and should have been monitored. Especially after their hacking of American citizens, American Political institutions and their interference in the United States Presidential election.

The reason communications were intercepted is because Trump's folks were communicating with people who we were monitoring... ie the Russians.

BTW... as wrong as he is on so many things, Trump was right to protest the leaks of contacts between his people and the Russians. Those leaks were illegal.

Here watch this for evidence Trump was wiretapped.
Have you seen Hillary's tweet?
https://youtu.be/6uunFB2UrE0

[edwardmurphy]

Side Question: What did Russia ever do to America to get so stigmatized as its arch nemesis?

They're powerful and they competed with us. What more do you need?

[Kurieuo]

Side Question: What did Russia ever do to America to get so stigmatized as its arch nemesis?

They're powerful and they competed with us. What more do you need?

Exactly. Perhaps we agree, I'm not sure if you're serious or being sarcastic.

US is always gripped by fear since it's inception. The prospect of having someone else powerful in the world is too much stress to handle. On the other hand, I believe in another way, that love casts out fear.

Eric Carmen seems to represent the US to a 'T':


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jby8B7vaPc

Or another with good 'ol Saddam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhZOdQBJIlk (warning: explicit language)

[Philip]

Putin has Russia by the balls. He's basically a KGB guy, through and through, as Yeltsin appointed him as Director of the Federal Security Service (FSB), which is the primary intelligence and security organization of the Russian Federation and successor of the KGB. This is how he operates. He has vast wealth - how? Whaddya think? The whole country operates by bribes and shakedowns - always has. Look at whom Putin courts (China, Iran, Syria). Look at his aggressions. The idea that Russia has embraced democracy is the biggest laugh ever. Let's not forget that these people are armed with to the teeth and could cause a very serious war. Don't ever trust them. The leaders are mostly atheists. All most of them know is the pursuit power and alignments with it. Putin has fantasies of restoring Mother Russian to her former glory. Let's hope not!

[Kurieuo]

This isn't intended to be a US guilt thing, but rather calling a spade a spade.

If wealth serves as an indicator of corruptness, we then have Bill and Hillary, Obama's no doubt wealthy and Trump also is too. All left the Saudis alone, even if they are one of the biggest perpetrators of human crimes. They're no doubt happy to provide a lot of financial benefit, and indeed donated much to the Clinton Foundation (and I'm sure others).

In this respect, a "red alert" flag should be going off in people's heads that Trump didn't also disallow Saudi immigration (since it was mainly Saudis and their funding responsible for 9/11 and NOT Iraq or Saddam). Scary, considering 9/11 was re-utilised under false pretenses, to be the "red flag" Bush Jr used to try finish what his daddy started in Iraq, no doubt in further pursuit of securing oil for the US.

China has been made into a boogeyman, the US gave the cold shoulder to China when the English/Americans were ousted from their territories after the Chinese Revolution. China too were on our side in the world wars. Lest we forget, they suffered too at the hands of the US' now dog-on-a-leash Japan. Iran is a worry, but not stupid. They might provoke, but if they started a war they'd quickly lose their allies' support. Syria, again, US created mess just like Libya before it, Iraq and Afghanistan. Russia has largely cleaned that mess up, within international law, yes, in working with the existing Syrian government -- after which the people can decide what is best for them. On the other hand, US-Coalition forces ignored international law in being there, if anything, the US helped place arms in the hands of terrorists.

Where have you gotten all your information from about Russia Phil? I know how the Western media portrays Russia, I know how Russians see themselves since I made a concerted effort to frequent their communities. Putin, is actually well liked in his country, appears to have a popularity any Western leader would envy. His popularity appears legitimate and doesn't seem to me founded upon an iron fist that drives fear into people campaign. He has helped his people through tough times, re-building Russia, making Russia self-sufficient, and putting it back on the map again to be a reckoned with power.

I don't trust any government, but in all seriousness, US and Russia would do well to get along. Yet, it seems America will only come to the table as a superior to any country, being the one doing the telling the way it's going to be or all deals are off. As ironic as it might seem, I did have higher hope Trump to do much better with Russia. As Trump said, "wouldn't it be great if Russia and the US got along?" That indeed would be great. As time goes, I do wonder if the tide will change in a more positive direction.

[Kurieuo]

Fwiw, the reason China isn't a real worry, unless they have a death wish:

US Military Presence

us-military-bases.jpg (40.59 KiB) Viewed 2785 times

Various US bases are littered around the Pacific AND also have nuclear capabilities. Such are on standby to launch nukes at any time. One 90 times more powerful than Hiroshima was almost sent to the USSR during the Cubin Missile Crisis. From memory, an order was given to launch, the base commander or the like used their better judgement and stalled until confirmation was definitely received. The order was revoked and person who gave the order arrested.

No one would seriously want to mess with or provoke the US (except that crazy guy in North Korea!). The threat of China and Russia is made up, isn't real. Meanwhile, many other countries are literally on edge, particularly in the Middle East and that big Asia continent China/Russia share. Who knows what the US will do next? So intelligence gathering would be smart for such countries.

But, just think for a moment, if the roles on that map were reversed. China was the US and US was China. How would the US feel with such a presence around it? I expect there might be a war on.

[Philip]

K, are you a commie lover? A rootin', tootin' Putin stooge? What?

[edwardmurphy]

Exactly. Perhaps we agree, I'm not sure if you're serious or being sarcastic.

US is always gripped by fear since it's inception. The prospect of having someone else powerful in the world is too much stress to handle.

I was completely serious. If a powerful country seeks to project power beyond their own borders or pushes an ideology that rivals our own then they're the competition, and potentially the enemy. That's the unvarnished truth - what the Russians call "realpolitik."

Regarding American fear and insecurity, I think that your statement is more or less accurate, but by pinning it on the US exclusively you're ignoring 5,000 years of history. Why did Sargon of Akkad conquer all of the neighboring city states? Why did the Egyptians fortify their border with the Nubians? Why did the the Spartans go to war against Athens? Why Alexander of Macedon strike out against Persia? Why couldn't the Romans let bygones be bygones after the Second Punic War? Or for more recent examples, why were the English so worried about the Spanish and the French? What led the Japanese to progress so rapidly from a feudal isolationists to modern imperialists?

The strong look to hold what they have and to expand their power and influence because if they don't they'll be pushed aside by someone stronger. I'm not arguing that that's a good thing, but it's how it's always been. The United States is unique in a number of ways, but that's not one of them.

On the other hand, I believe in another way, that love casts out fear.

That would be great, but unfortunately the world is moving away from the globalist utopia that you describe and toward fractious nationalism.

[DBowling]

What I'm saying here, is not whether you're right or wrong -- but at least see your strong bias.

Oh... I definitely acknowledge my bias. I don't disagree with you at all that I have a bias perspective on a number of issues... one of which is my personal faith in Jesus Christ.

A totally open mind is IMHO an empty mind.

I think the keys for me personally are...
1. First and foremost to be aware of my bias.
2. As much as I am able, let my bias be data driven bias.
3. Continue to reevaluate my bias as more data comes in

So when data comes in that is in conflict with my bias then I need to reevaluate the accuracy of my bias. An example of where I have reevaluated my bias is in the area of origins.
I was raised YEC and used to hold very strong YEC views. Enough Scriptural and scientific data came into conflict with my origins bias, so I reevaluated my origins position to where I am now this weird combination of young Adam, old earth progressive creationist.

However, there are other cases where the incoming data has confirmed my previous bias.
A prime example is the Birther lie. To date all the assertions of Birthirism have been demonstrated to be factually false. So admittedly I went into the Arpaio video with a skeptical eye. And the fact that the non typed content did not match in either content, location on the document, or spatial relationship with other allegedly copied content convinced me that the conclusions drawn in the Arpaio video were totally bogus.
The two links I posted that respond to the video went even further to show that spatial dissimilarities within the typed content, demonstrate that the typed content wasn't copied either, which confirmed my initial bias about the legitimacy of the conclusions drawn in the video.

Trump's claim that he was wiretapped by Obama is a similar situation.
Trump's repeated dishonesty as a candidate and President combined with his tendency to tweet stupid things when he wants to change the media narrative made me initially skeptical of his accusation. When a few days went by with no corroboration of his claim by the Administration or the intelligence committees in congress, and flat out denial by the intelligence community... well, that was enough to convince me that this wiretapping accusation was just another Trump lie.

As additional evidence comes out it will either confirm my original bias or cause me to reevaluate my bias.