Despite objections,why the Gap Theory is true.

[Philip]

ACB, let's break this 2 Peter: 3 passage down:

"This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles..."

What is the time frame being considered? It is at least after the period of the prophets - that scoffers will, in the last days, say nothing has changed since WHEN - since the after the prophets of the OT AND of Christ and His Apostles. Both of these groups of God's representatives on earth are people who exist post the flood. It is absurd to think that this is referencing pre-flood (other than unbelievers were soon delivered - for them - unexpected judgment and damnation), as the Prophets and the Apostles came far after it. And no time would be considered that wasn't some period of continuity AFTER these groups of the Prophets and Christ's Apostles existed and prophesied.

"... knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. 4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming?

Guess what, these scoffers are either in our time or in our future - because the last days, to our knowledge, while they might be close, don't yet appear to be here.

"For ever since the fathers fell asleep,

First, note, those making the observation are in OUR future - and so Peter is referencing people scoffing long after his time. So, WHO are the Fathers? He's already referenced them: The Prophets and the Apostles. And they are referencing that things have not changed (Pre-Christ: "Where's this prophecied Messiah?" Post Christ/Last Days: "Christ has not come back yet," they'll laugh!). Had the Prophets, Apostles, Christ, or their prophecies existed in the period before? No! WHAT exactly has not changed? This is in reference to but ONE thing (predictions of Christ, and later, of His return, and the fact that when the scoffers of the last days will so cynically remark, Christ will not yet have returned.



"... all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished."

WHAT world perished? The same world of PEOPLE that was flooded and that continues. The present earth continued just as it had before the flood.

"But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly."

This is not a parallel to some former world, but that the unGodly will be judged and then the world will be purged and transformed, and earth and Heaven will merge into a new Creation. This is all about, just as the people in the days of Noah did not see the coming judgment, neither will the heathen in the last days. And the ONLY things referenced, that will have continued just as it had AFTER the Prophets and the Apostles prophesied, are the normal workings of the world and and that just as Jesus was first prophesied, and many did not believe the prophecies, He arrived as foretold. And much the same, many do not believe Jesus will come back as also prophesied. In both situations, there were prophecies unbelieved by scoffers, and yet, similarly, the prophecies will be complete upon the return of Christ, and just as unbelievers before the flood, the scoffers of the last days will see sudden destruction and judgment.

None of this passage has anything to do with some supposed former world - such is not what is being compared.

[abelcainsbrother]

ACB, let's break this 2 Peter: 3 passage down:

"This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles..."

What is the time frame being considered? It is at least after the period of the prophets - that scoffers will, in the last days, say nothing has changed since WHEN - since the after the prophets of the OT AND of Christ and His Apostles. Both of these groups of God's representatives on earth are people who exist post the flood. It is absurd to think that this is referencing pre-flood (other than unbelievers were soon delivered - for them - unexpected judgment and damnation), as the Prophets and the Apostles came far after it. And no time would be considered that wasn't some period of continuity AFTER these groups of the Prophets and Christ's Apostles existed and prophesied.

"... knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. 4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming?

Guess what, these scoffers are either in our time or in our future - because the last days, to our knowledge, while they might be close, don't yet appear to be here.

"For ever since the fathers fell asleep,

First, note, those making the observation are in OUR future - and so Peter is referencing people scoffing long after his time. So, WHO are the Fathers? He's already referenced them: The Prophets and the Apostles. And they are referencing that things have not changed (Pre-Christ: "Where's this prophecied Messiah?" Post Christ/Last Days: "Christ has not come back yet," they'll laugh!). Had the Prophets, Apostles, Christ, or their prophecies existed in the period before? No! WHAT exactly has not changed? This is in reference to but ONE thing (predictions of Christ, and later, of His return, and the fact that when the scoffers of the last days will so cynically remark, Christ will not yet have returned.



"... all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished."

WHAT world perished? The same world of PEOPLE that was flooded and that continues. The present earth continued just as it had before the flood.

"But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly."

This is not a parallel to some former world, but that the unGodly will be judged and then the world will be purged and transformed, and earth and Heaven will merge into a new Creation. This is all about, just as the people in the days of Noah did not see the coming judgment, neither will the heathen in the last days. And the ONLY things referenced, that will have continued just as it had AFTER the Prophets and the Apostles prophesied, are the normal workings of the world and and that just as Jesus was first prophesied, and many did not believe the prophecies, He arrived as foretold. And much the same, many do not believe Jesus will come back as also prophesied. In both situations, there were prophecies unbelieved by scoffers, and yet, similarly, the prophecies will be complete upon the return of Christ, and just as unbelievers before the flood, the scoffers of the last days will see sudden destruction and judgment.

None of this passage has anything to do with some supposed former world - such is not what is being compared.

Thanks Phillip for atleast responding from a biblical perspective and although we may not agree on interpretation I still value your knowledge and wisdom when it comes to the bible.I hope that we can discuss our differences in a respectful way because I'm sure that you're aware of how much anger and division these kinds of discussions can generate.They don't have to,but they often do.

As far as your first argument :

"This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles..."

What is the time frame being considered? It is at least after the period of the prophets - that scoffers will, in the last days, say nothing has changed since WHEN - since the after the prophets of the OT AND of Christ and His Apostles. Both of these groups of God's representatives on earth are people who exist post the flood. It is absurd to think that this is referencing pre-flood (other than unbelievers were soon delivered - for them - unexpected judgment and damnation), as the Prophets and the Apostles came far after it. And no time would be considered that wasn't some period of continuity AFTER these groups of the Prophets and Christ's Apostles existed and prophesied.

What makes you think that we think this is referencing pre-flood? Because we don't.This is just Peter reminding them to be mindful of the prophecies of the prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles and the prophets go back to Moses.

"... knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. 4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming?


Guess what, these scoffers are either in our time or in our future - because the last days, to our knowledge, while they might be close, don't yet appear to be here.

I think it is both in our time and in the future.I also think that these scoffers are both believers and non-believers.I cannot understand how you cannot see scoffers now in these last days.

For ever since the fathers fell asleep,
You said:
First, note, those making the observation are in OUR future - and so Peter is referencing people scoffing long after his time. So, WHO are the Fathers? He's already referenced them: The Prophets and the Apostles. And they are referencing that things have not changed (Pre-Christ: "Where's this prophecied Messiah?" Post Christ/Last Days: "Christ has not come back yet," they'll laugh!). Had the Prophets, Apostles, Christ, or their prophecies existed in the period before? No! WHAT exactly has not changed? This is in reference to but ONE thing (predictions of Christ, and later, of His return, and the fact that when the scoffers of the last days will so cynically remark, Christ will not yet have returned.

I think to get proper understanding about who these scoffers are it is important to note all that they argue.First they question the coming of Jesus then they start with their argument as to why they have a problem believing his coming and then they start argung why they have a hard time accepting his coming.First they say for ever since the fathers fell asleep and it is the scoffers starting to argue why they have a problem with his coming.I'm not so sure the scoffers even care about the prophets and the apostles the way it is worded.You broke up the verse to try to make a point but I think it is important to focus on their full argument as to why they have a problem with his coming and I think it is because of the influence of naturalism in science in these last days.

"... all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished."
You said:
WHAT world perished? The same world of PEOPLE that was flooded and that continues. The present earth continued just as it had before the flood.

First off let's focus on the full argument of the scoffers that all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. So put the whole argument together of the scoffers and why they have a problem with his coming. I believe it has to do with naturalism in science and its influence in our society in these last days,this idea that the laws of nature are fixed and settled and is based on the stability of the laws of nature and the uniformity of the course of events going all the way back to the beginning. What world perished? The world before the waters that the earth was formed out of. I'm using the KJV but imo it does'nt make much difference if we just go by what the bible says and leave commentators out of it. I have read commentaries for both pro and against and so I could find commentators that believed in and taught this Gap Creation through commentary but it then would come down to which we believe so we can just go by what the bible says in english.

"But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly."
You said:
This is not a parallel to some former world, but that the unGodly will be judged and then the world will be purged and transformed, and earth and Heaven will merge into a new Creation. This is all about, just as the people in the days of Noah did not see the coming judgment, neither will the heathen in the last days. And the ONLY things referenced, that will have continued just as it had AFTER the Prophets and the Apostles prophesied, are the normal workings of the world and and that just as Jesus was first prophesied, and many did not believe the prophecies, He arrived as foretold. And much the same, many do not believe Jesus will come back as also prophesied. In both situations, there were prophecies unbelieved by scoffers, and yet, similarly, the prophecies will be complete upon the return of Christ, and just as unbelievers before the flood, the scoffers of the last days will see sudden destruction and judgment.

Why is'nt it a parallel to a former world? "But by the same word the present heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire..." So that we have a former heavens and earth and now we have the heavens and earth that now exist after the restoration.I agree that that the people before Noah's flood did not see the coming judgment and yes it is the same in the last days.I also agree that many do not believe that Jesus will come back.I think we could say that it is just as hard to imagine this deluge of water that took out the former world purging it with water is just as hard to believe, for many,that in the future this heavens and earth will be purged with fire instead of water and then the heavens and earth will be restored again.But the bible says it is going to happen.

[Kurieuo]

Really? I mean seriously ACB, you're surely not that oblivious given the countless other exchanges to think members aren't eye-rolling at this thread being opened. It's like what's the point... Or, perhaps this is for newer members, but I bet you'll find no converts in this thread and I will apologise if wrong. I just never met someone as oblivious to others and persistent on certain issues than my own dear old dad.

[Philip]

ACB: I cannot understand how you cannot see scoffers now in these last days.

Of COURSE I see scoffers - and we'll always have them, to the end.

The big problem is that Scripture never says there was a former world before the one destroyed by water that previously existed. Not ONCE! So you have to read it into what is not said - and THAT is a terrible way to interpret Scripture.

[abelcainsbrother]

Really? I mean seriously ACB, you're surely not that oblivious given the countless other exchanges to think members aren't eye-rolling at this thread being opened. It's like what's the point... Or, perhaps this is for newer members, but I bet you'll find no converts in this thread and I will apologise if wrong. I just never met someone as oblivious to others and persistent on certain issues than my own dear old dad.

Why would they be eye-rolling?I see no reason why.This is just another interpretation and I have never laid out in an indepth way the many reasons we believe the Gap Theory is true,or the ways it enhances our bible knowledge once understood fully.I think you'll see what I mean as I work on it.I have not even really got started yet.Right now I'm just trying to deal with why we believe 2nd Peter 3:3-7 refers us to Genesis 1:2 and not Noah's flood like bible scholars today claim.I have not really even started yet.This is just one of the first reasons why we believe there was a gap that has been overlooked or that people are willingly ignorant about and that all things have not gone on continually as they always were from the beginning of the creation.
I'm going to try to go in a step by step way through the bible to show the many reasons we believe it to be true while pointing out how it enhances our bible knowledge also once fully understood.I have no control over whether or not people accept it or not.

[Kurieuo]

Why would they be eye-rolling? I perceive such is the case.

ANYONE reading this post, who saw Abe's opening post and eye-rolled or though "here we go again", please like this post of mine. That is, if you're even still following this thread.

Take a read of Rick's response to you in this thread (his first post here). Take a read of Phil's response. Take a read of my response. Others' responses. People won't even be reading much anymore of what you write because you've just hammered your Gap theology so much. Many passages you present aren't new, and have been dealt with in the past, or don't prove what you claim and passionately believe 100% they do. Yet, you'll continue trying to hammer home a Gappist interpretation of everything.

You can do that, but sometimes, it is good to be aware to how people perceive matters as well (in order to be more effective). Really, your Gappist theology has kind of worn out on this board with those who at one point or another engaged with you on such. They no longer take it seriously. I'm sorry, it sounds mean, but I'm just being honest with you, perhaps brutally so. You're free of course to continue trying to hammer your views into others, while you are obsessively persistent in your Gappistry, your manner is nonetheless always polite.

[abelcainsbrother]

Why would they be eye-rolling? I perceive such is the case.

ANYONE reading this post, who saw Abe's opening post and eye-rolled or though "here we go again", please like this post of mine. That is, if you're even still following this thread.

Take a read of Rick's response to you in this thread (his first post here). Take a read of Phil's response. Take a read of my response. Others' responses. People won't even be reading much anymore of what you write because you've just hammered your Gap theology so much. Many passages you present aren't new, and have been dealt with in the past, or don't prove what you claim and passionately believe 100% they do. Yet, you'll continue trying to hammer home a Gappist interpretation of everything.

You can do that, but sometimes, it is good to be aware to how people perceive matters as well (in order to be more effective). Really, your Gappist theology has kind of worn out on this board who at one point or another engaged with you on such. They no longer take it seriously. I'm sorry, it sounds mean, but I'm just being honest with you, perhaps brutally so. You're free of course to continue trying to hammer your views into others, while you are obsessively persistent in your Gappistry, your manner is nonetheless always polite.

I don't see it as hammering the Gap Theory.All I've ever done is defend it when I've been challenged,or I've discussed creationism and this interpretation if it comes up and it has been over time too.This is just the interpretation I believe is true and yes I have tried to defend it if it comes up but I don't think I have hammered it.I respect other views and I don't have a problem discussing creationism.I realize others may not like to or are just burned out over debating it,etc,I understand that.But I really don't think I have ever really laid it out like in this thread in an indepth way.Usually it is just defending it and context gets lost to only a few verses,etc but there is so much more to it.

I really don't see how it could bother anybody so much.I have no problem with others if they made posts about their creation interpretation even if I disagreed with it.It would'nt bother me,so I don't understand how it could bother others so much.I'm not trying to hammer.I have'nt made a post on it in awhile and the last one was just refuting somebody who was wrong about why they reject the Gap Theory.I refuted it.

[Kurieuo]

I don't see it as hammering the Gap Theory.All I've ever done is defend it when I've been challenged,or I've discussed creationism and this interpretation if it comes up and it has been over time too.

Ok then, apologies for interjecting into this thread you opened to again show "why your Gap Theory is true."

acb-started-topics.jpg (60.44 KiB) Viewed 4484 times

[abelcainsbrother]

Now that you understand that Gap Theorist believe 2nd Peter 3:3-7 refers us to Genesis 1:2 and not Noah's flood I think I can move on now.Bottom line is 2nd Peter 3:3-7 is either referring us to Noah's flood or Genesis 1:2 and we believe it is Genesis 1:2.You can go back over it yourself and decide who you agree with.

[abelcainsbrother]

I don't see it as hammering the Gap Theory.All I've ever done is defend it when I've been challenged,or I've discussed creationism and this interpretation if it comes up and it has been over time too.

Ok then, apologies for interjecting into this thread you opened to again show "why your Gap Theory is true."

acb-started-topics.jpg

Those posts were about different things as it pertains to the Gap Theory.One was just about the Gap Theory,one was a thread to discuss evolution vs the gap theory,one was refuting a post I read that was wrong about what they said and so I refuted it and now this one.This one will be much more indepth about the many reasons why we believe it to be true and the ways it enchances our bible knowledge,like a bible study on it.

[abelcainsbrother]

So we already know about the gap and already assume the earth is old and not young before we even go further.

Genesis 2:1-4 "1.Thus the heavens and earth were finished,and all the host of them.2.And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.3.And God blessed the seventh day,and sanctified it: because that in it he rested from all his work which God created and made.4.These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created,in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens."

Gap Theorists read these verses and noticed the words made and created were used so much and started to realize that the words made and created have different meanings that Moses was trying to get us to realize. Now I know that there are Christians who teach that these words are interchangeable but we disagree. Moses would not use these words like he has if they meant the same thing.Gap Theorists realized this and looked into the Hebrew and learned that when God created it was always something new God did,he brought something new into being that had never been done before but God also made things and this never refers to something that is new.When made is used it is God using already existing material to make something,it means God worked on something and this is why we say the word made means restore or to work on something.It is not bringing something into existence like when God created.

This remains true throughout the whole OT.So that every time we see the word created it is always something new God did,he brought something brand new into existence but when we see made it is not something new,it is God just working on something.Now once we get into Genesis 1 we are gonna see that when God created it is always something new that is brought into existence and is perfect the way God wanted it but when we see the word made it is something that God is working on that already existed and is not new.This is why we say God restored the earth and then the heavens in the six days.But we'll get into that later.

So once we understand the difference between the words created and made we already have a clue when it comes to Genesis 1 and how to read it and we already know about the gap and already assume the earth is old and not young too.Now you may use a different translation of the bible and it is not so apparent like in the KJV but I'm using the KJV and you can see it is apparent.Even if it is'nt apparent like in the KJV it can be by understanding the difference.The Hebrew words "bara" for created and "asah" for made are still there in the Hebrew text and still have different meanings.

Genesis 2:1-2 "Thus the heavens and earth were finished,and all the host of them.2.And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had MADE;and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had MADE."

So we already know that in Genesis 1 the only thing God did as far as the heavens and earth was work on them,this is means God restored them because they are not new before he rested on the seventh day.He just did work and restored them,he did not create them in the six days.
Genesis 2:3"And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which he HAD MADE."
Notice "had made" at the end of it and we could also say "had worked on it" or even "had restored" it.
Genesis 2:4 "These are the generations of the of the heavens and of the earth when they were created,in the day the LORD God MADE the earth and the heavens."

Based on this phrase "these are the generations" we again have evidence the heavens and earth are old and are not young,it has to do when they were first created and in the day(yom- meaning longer than one day because there were six days)the LORD God MADE the earth and the heavens he just worked on them or restored them.This is what we will see as we read through Genesis 1 and get into the six days.

[Mallz]

I didn't read ACB in this thread and I don't read him in any other thread, just the responses to him. And the funny thing is? I already know what B.S. he says based off the responses (which are all so very similar). Wouldn't it be cool if ACB was as obsessed with Jesus Christ as he is pushing a delusional idea (not even close to a theory)?

[abelcainsbrother]

I didn't read ACB in this thread and I don't read him in any other thread, just the responses to him. And the funny thing is? I already know what B.S. he says based off the responses (which are all so very similar). Wouldn't it be cool if ACB was as obsessed with Jesus Christ as he is pushing a delusional idea (not even close to a theory)?

God bless you

[Kurieuo]

I didn't read ACB in this thread and I don't read him in any other thread, just the responses to him. And the funny thing is? I already know what B.S. he says based off the responses (which are all so very similar). Wouldn't it be cool if ACB was as obsessed with Jesus Christ as he is pushing a delusional idea (not even close to a theory)?

God bless you

Like I said ACB, you're a dog-at-a-bone with your Gappistry, but polite.

[abelcainsbrother]

I didn't read ACB in this thread and I don't read him in any other thread, just the responses to him. And the funny thing is? I already know what B.S. he says based off the responses (which are all so very similar). Wouldn't it be cool if ACB was as obsessed with Jesus Christ as he is pushing a delusional idea (not even close to a theory)?

God bless you

Like I said ACB, you're a dog-at-a-bone with your Gappistry, but polite.

When somebody throws insults at me it shows they have already lost and have no argument.I don't lower myself down to others standards and judge somebody over a creation interpretation.