Genesis 9:5

[Byblos]

Mammals for example. And certain birds. If you've ever had a dog for example, you know dogs have a mind, will and emotions.

As to whether animals go to heaven, I really don't know. But the new heavens and new earth? Why couldn't there be animals there.

The soul is that which animates the body. Any thing that grows has a soul which is returned to its maker after the body dies. There are, however, different types of souls. The first form is non-sentient irrational soul for plant life, the second form is the sentient irrational soul for animals, and lastly the sentient rational soul reserved for humans which distinguishes us from all other life forms for it is the image of God in which we are created.

Plants have souls? Plants don't have a body to animate.

Why would you say that? Plants certainly have bodies, reproduce, grow, and die.

They have a body. But not a body animated by a mind, will or emotions.

Unless you're suggesting that plants can think...

It is an animated body nonetheless. What do you think non-sentient and irrational mean?

[Philip]

Scripture certainly shows a physical reality that will be the new merged Heaven and earth after this age ends. As for animals that have lived on earth, it MIGHT be possible that God has populated Heaven with many of them, and even new types - hopefully he left out bugs and "snakes with an agenda," but perhaps He recreates one's favorite dogs or pets? That's not that they are eternal as are humans, but that they might be perfectly replicated? WHO really knows? It's going to be beyond amazing, that's all I know. One clue that animals here are not spiritual beings as we are, is that God deems it fine for us to eat them, and to harvest them for clothing, etc. We're still to treat them humanely. But God clearly does not see the taking of animal life on the same level he does the taking of human life (thus not penalties for deemed for such). Sorry, PETA.

[RickD]

The soul is that which animates the body. Any thing that grows has a soul which is returned to its maker after the body dies. There are, however, different types of souls. The first form is non-sentient irrational soul for plant life, the second form is the sentient irrational soul for animals, and lastly the sentient rational soul reserved for humans which distinguishes us from all other life forms for it is the image of God in which we are created.

Plants have souls? Plants don't have a body to animate.

Why would you say that? Plants certainly have bodies, reproduce, grow, and die.

They have a body. But not a body animated by a mind, will or emotions.

Unless you're suggesting that plants can think...

It is an animated body nonetheless. What do you think non-sentient and irrational mean?

I'm starting to think they describe me.


Byblos,

What do you think of this:
https://www.catholic.com/qa/what-exactly-is-a-soul

[thatkidakayoungguy]

Jesus must have appeared a bit wacko rebuking the winds and sea causing the storm to stop, I mean can you picture anyone else doing that and not being considered a freak? I think some will be surprised when they see trees and rivers clapping their hands, mountains and hills singing before the Lord. Indeed "every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them" worshiping God.

I took that as figurative.

[Kurieuo]

Jesus must have appeared a bit wacko rebuking the winds and sea causing the storm to stop, I mean can you picture anyone else doing that and not being considered a freak? I think some will be surprised when they see trees and rivers clapping their hands, mountains and hills singing before the Lord. Indeed "every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them" worshiping God.

I took that as figurative.

Perhaps Psalm and Isaiah, but Jesus rebuking the sea and wind, and Revelations provides a quite defined and vivid vision. And these are just a few of many I could did up.

Think, by Jesus' word, creation obeyed him. Read Genesis, God "speaks" and the earth and waters bring forth living creatures, plants and the like. Some might chose to take any such references poetically, or meaning something else, but I think paying careful attention to how all of creation is treated throughout Scripture is quite revealing.

[Philip]

K: Think, by Jesus' word, creation obeyed him. Read Genesis, God "speaks" and the earth and waters bring forth living creatures, plants and the like. Some might chose to take any such references poetically, or meaning something else, but I think paying careful attention to how all of creation is treated throughout Scripture is quite revealing.

EVERY physical thing had a beginning thing it is derivative of. As Scripture teaches, God does not change - EVER. What He is, in all of His attributes, does not change. And it also teaches us that God is not physical, but SPIRIT. And so this God of Spirit first created a physical realm, which He eventually stepped into - and literally so, as He was born into a physical body. So, ultimately, the physical was caused by the Spiritual. There is no symbolism there - either God is all spirit and there was no physical existence prior to Jesus creating it - or not. But we are obsessed with what can be known about the history of all manner of things that are spiritual. How strange to argue over various occurrences in Scripture, with many trying to explain the miraculous only by physical measures. But that's backwards, as the physical IS miraculous, and originated miraculously. It's just that it's been in place so long, and typically operates so predictably, that many tend to think ONLY the predictable we typically see is how things have forever been. But the physical had a beginning - both Scripture and science assert this. Oh, science speculates a lot, but without no more than wild theories about original things, which had complex designs and functions, appearing so quickly, supposedly without a cause, yet with just the right needed building blocks and conditions.

[thatkidakayoungguy]

Jesus must have appeared a bit wacko rebuking the winds and sea causing the storm to stop, I mean can you picture anyone else doing that and not being considered a freak? I think some will be surprised when they see trees and rivers clapping their hands, mountains and hills singing before the Lord. Indeed "every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them" worshiping God.

I took that as figurative.

Perhaps Psalm and Isaiah, but Jesus rebuking the sea and wind, and Revelations provides a quite defined and vivid vision. And these are just a few of many I could did up.

Think, by Jesus' word, creation obeyed him. Read Genesis, God "speaks" and the earth and waters bring forth living creatures, plants and the like. Some might chose to take any such references poetically, or meaning something else, but I think paying careful attention to how all of creation is treated throughout Scripture is quite revealing.

I should've clarified, I think the part about Jesus stopping creation was literal, but the trees clapping and hills singing was not. I agree it's interesting to how creation is treated, just by mere speaking something happens.

[Kurieuo]

Jesus must have appeared a bit wacko rebuking the winds and sea causing the storm to stop, I mean can you picture anyone else doing that and not being considered a freak? I think some will be surprised when they see trees and rivers clapping their hands, mountains and hills singing before the Lord. Indeed "every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them" worshiping God.

I took that as figurative.

Perhaps Psalm and Isaiah, but Jesus rebuking the sea and wind, and Revelations provides a quite defined and vivid vision. And these are just a few of many I could did up.

Think, by Jesus' word, creation obeyed him. Read Genesis, God "speaks" and the earth and waters bring forth living creatures, plants and the like. Some might chose to take any such references poetically, or meaning something else, but I think paying careful attention to how all of creation is treated throughout Scripture is quite revealing.

I should've clarified, I think the part about Jesus stopping creation was literal, but the trees clapping and hills singing was not. I agree it's interesting to how creation is treated, just by mere speaking something happens.

While one can say Scripture is inconclusive, I find it interesting the doors are open to such a view and can't be closed. That is, a belief such as nature, or creation, having a consciousness of its own.

When carried through to a different topic, such as why "natural evils" are in the world, I think such a view can generate quite a sophisticated natural theodicy -- rather than believing nature to be just static and non-unitary, that nature is aware on some level and united amongst itself.

[thatkidakayoungguy]

While one can say Scripture is inconclusive, I find it interesting the doors are open to such a view and can't be closed. That is, a belief such as nature, or creation, having a consciousness of its own.

When carried through to a different topic, such as why "natural evils" are in the world, I think such a view can generate quite a sophisticated natural theodicy -- rather than believing nature to be just static and non-unitary, that nature is aware on some level and united amongst itself.

There's a theory called the Gaia Theory, that states earth is somehow alive. You know, I considered that before, and seeing how the many ancient and prehistoric people accept a nature spirit for earth, well they could be on to something. Sometimes nature seems to have a mind of it's own. For instance, earth regulates itself, forming new land and consuming it, etc, something fairly unique in the solar system.

What level of consciousnesses would such a world have? The same as bacteria? Lower? Higher? Of course this is speculation, the bible never says specifically and so we shouldn't get to caught up into it, probably bc if it was revealed that then we'd have a stronger desire to worship the creation.

[Kurieuo]

While one can say Scripture is inconclusive, I find it interesting the doors are open to such a view and can't be closed. That is, a belief such as nature, or creation, having a consciousness of its own.

When carried through to a different topic, such as why "natural evils" are in the world, I think such a view can generate quite a sophisticated natural theodicy -- rather than believing nature to be just static and non-unitary, that nature is aware on some level and united amongst itself.

There's a theory called the Gaia Theory, that states earth is somehow alive. You know, I considered that before, and seeing how the many ancient and prehistoric people accept a nature spirit for earth, well they could be on to something. Sometimes nature seems to have a mind of it's own. For instance, earth regulates itself, forming new land and consuming it, etc, something fairly unique in the solar system.

What level of consciousnesses would such a world have? The same as bacteria? Lower? Higher? Of course this is speculation, the bible never says specifically and so we shouldn't get to caught up into it, probably bc if it was revealed that then we'd have a stronger desire to worship the creation.

Perhaps the desire to worship the created rather than Creator, is due to such being realised. It is interesting how many deities are shared based upon natural forces, kind of does allude to something more.

I think, the big eye-opener for me, was with the re-known Atheist philosopher, Thomas Nagel's book, Mind & Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature is Almost Certainly False. Therein, he poses big questions regarding the often accepted Nature being understood merely in physical terms, to also encompass laws of consciousnesses. Not in a mystical sense like "Gaia" although the possibility is open, but rather consciousness being itself an inherent part of the "Nature" fabric of our world like physical matter.

While this is largely rejected now, I reckon give it another 100 years, and it'll probably be a more common view. Society is slowly edging away from a purely physical ontology of our universe, philosophers are normally first to lead, then sciences follow as a new philosophy sweeps in -- but a band of Christian theologians are always at the top of the mountain waiting for the rest to catch up.

[thatkidakayoungguy]

While one can say Scripture is inconclusive, I find it interesting the doors are open to such a view and can't be closed. That is, a belief such as nature, or creation, having a consciousness of its own.

When carried through to a different topic, such as why "natural evils" are in the world, I think such a view can generate quite a sophisticated natural theodicy -- rather than believing nature to be just static and non-unitary, that nature is aware on some level and united amongst itself.

There's a theory called the Gaia Theory, that states earth is somehow alive. You know, I considered that before, and seeing how the many ancient and prehistoric people accept a nature spirit for earth, well they could be on to something. Sometimes nature seems to have a mind of it's own. For instance, earth regulates itself, forming new land and consuming it, etc, something fairly unique in the solar system.

What level of consciousnesses would such a world have? The same as bacteria? Lower? Higher? Of course this is speculation, the bible never says specifically and so we shouldn't get to caught up into it, probably bc if it was revealed that then we'd have a stronger desire to worship the creation.

Perhaps the desire to worship the created rather than Creator, is due to such being realised. It is interesting how many deities are shared based upon natural forces, kind of does allude to something more.

I think, the big eye-opener for me, was with the re-known Atheist philosopher, Thomas Nagel's book, Mind & Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature is Almost Certainly False. Therein, he poses big questions regarding the often accepted Nature being understood merely in physical terms, to also encompass laws of consciousnesses. Not in a mystical sense like "Gaia" although the possibility is open, but rather consciousness being itself an inherent part of the "Nature" fabric of our world like physical matter.

While this is largely rejected now, I reckon give it another 100 years, and it'll probably be a more common view. Society is slowly edging away from a purely physical ontology of our universe, philosophers are normally first to lead, then sciences follow as a new philosophy sweeps in -- but a band of Christian theologians are always at the top of the mountain waiting for the rest to catch up.

It doesn't surprise me seeing that in the beginning everything was spiritual, and the physical (or maybe something completely different, dunno) came later. Another thing i see is that only this world gets redone. There are at least three deminsions, something noted by the ancients and prehistorics as well as us, the upper world (heaven), this world (universe/multiverse), and the lower world (usually hell but in this case lake of fire). Kind of brings back the point that the spiritual is the most important and the oldest, not the physical like many think.

[thatkidakayoungguy]

When carried through to a different topic, such as why "natural evils" are in the world, I think such a view can generate quite a sophisticated natural theodicy -- rather than believing nature to be just static and non-unitary, that nature is aware on some level and united amongst itself.

Do you think earth is punishing humans for our messing it up so much? Or is that from God?
Either way, God told us we would reap what we sow, and I think we are beginning to see that, like with the seasons out of alignment, global temperatures rising, etc.


BQ: Is it just me or are more wild animals getting along with humans and other animals?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7rZTZBOrqQ this guy swims with a polar bear
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f3rXALcGdo this one was raised from infancy though
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUg9E41ImzY this is a trio of bear, lion, and tiger that get along with each other
There's others too. Do you think this is a sign of the times? We're nearing the kingdom of Christ where man and animals get along with each other.