Is God's will immutable?

[IceMobster]

I'm pretty sure we can agree that God is immutable, but is His will, also?

If His will is immutable...

Well, why pray then? Here I do not have prayers of thanks or prayers of praise/worship (of God, of course) in mind, but our prayers for others. Say someone you know is led astray/out of the Path and so you pray to God to have him healed.
First, why do you think you can change His will? How can a sinner affect the will of God? I can't grasp that.
Anyway, secondly, you can't even know what God's will is concerning that particular situation (you praying for that other person) or even in general, so how do you know any of your prayers or lack thereof did anything?
Thirdly, by praying for others you want God to see that certain individual as "privileged" and help him rather than someone who is not being prayed for. Will God rather help that who is being prayed for? If not, then there is no use of such a prayer. If so, God is a slot machine in which you insert a coin (prayer) and receive the result.
Conclusion? If His will is immutable, there is no need for prayers to others (or perhaps even for oneself).

If His will is not immutable...

What consequences does that draw? I don't know, I haven't thought about this side that much. What even is God's will, lol? That being which is not immutable is no longer God, I guess. Right?

[RickD]

What if God's will is immutable, and it's His will that he heals someone only if you pray for that person?

God wants us to come to Him with our needs. Not because He doesn't already know what we need, but to draw us into a closer relationship with Him. He speaks to us primarily through scripture, and we speak to Him through prayer.

[Philip]

Is God influenced by prayer? Only to the degree that the prayer matches up with His will for a particular issue or situation. But that influence from our prayers, as well as His will (and thus ALL of His responses), have ALWAYS been known to Him. There is no NEW information that God's decisions or will hinge upon - not for HIM. He has ALWAYS seen and known about every event, crisis, their sequences, His responses, our responses, etc. His decisions in all matters have always been known to Him. But He does respond to us in real time - because that is the realm we live in and can understand. What He does is based upon Who He is, His Character, His Will, His perfect understandings and judgments. We can scarcely wrap our minds around even a fraction of what we do know about Him. This is why, as long as we a mere mortals, there will be things about God and how He has done things we won't fully know or understand - or maybe, not at all.

[abelcainsbrother]

I think that in the bible you can find a situation like what you may be going through to be able to pray according to God's will.I think it requires bible knowledge to pray according to God's will and although God likes to hear from us we don't always pray according to his will.

[IceMobster]

Is God influenced by prayer? Only to the degree that the prayer matches up with His will for a particular issue or situation. But that influence from our prayers, as well as His will (and thus ALL of His responses), have ALWAYS been known to Him. There is no NEW information that God's decisions or will hinge upon - not for HIM. He has ALWAYS seen and known about every event, crisis, their sequences, His responses, our responses, etc. His decisions in all matters have always been known to Him. But He does respond to us in real time - because that is the realm we live in and can understand. What He does is based upon Who He is, His Character, His Will, His perfect understandings and judgments. We can scarcely wrap our minds around even a fraction of what we do know about Him. This is why, as long as we a mere mortals, there will be things about God and how He has done things we won't fully know or understand - or maybe, not at all.

God knows all the possible outcomes. Does He know which one of the outcomes will happen?

[Philip]

Ice: God knows all the possible outcomes. Does He know which one of the outcomes will happen?

Of course!

[IceMobster]

Ice: God knows all the possible outcomes. Does He know which one of the outcomes will happen?

Of course!

That's not really possible?

Don't us having free will deny that?

Wtf, isn't everything predetermined then?

[RickD]

Ice: God knows all the possible outcomes. Does He know which one of the outcomes will happen?

Of course!

That's not really possible?

Don't us having free will deny that?

Wtf, isn't everything predetermined then?

How do you figure that?

If God knows what we will choose, how does that equate to God making us choose?

[Philip]

Ice: How do you figure that?

Rick: If God knows what we will choose, how does that equate to God making us choose?

If we did not have free will - if ALL things, decisions, actions, etc. would have been pre-determined by God - then so would be our sin. Which would mean that God causes sin - an unthinkable and unScriptural belief that the Bible clearly says He does not do.

Ah, but are there not parameters from within we must and can only exercise our free will? We can't do the impossible. We can't fly, become invisible, cannot do more than our bodies and environments allow. But our free will is bracketed by the parameters God imposes upon us - of ability and opportunity, but that also sometimes prevents our free will of accomplishing what WE want it to. That doesn't mean we can't exercise our free will; it just means that we can't control the outcome or end results that we desire. Or free will operates under the umbrella of God's sovereignty. HE decides what He will and won't allow our free will to accomplish it. His plans also USE the evil, free-will actions and intentions of others, but to accomplish good. Think of the actions and intentions of Judas, as God's plan of the Cross became the event through which eternal life is made certain for those with faith in Jesus. Judas meant it for selfish gain, even though he knew it would likely lead to Jesus being killed. God meant for this to happen, just as it did, yet employing the free will actions of men to accomplish it. As God controls ALL of the variables of time, place and opportunity, foreknowing knowing what various evil men would do, given such opportunities.

[PaulSacramento]

There are passages that seem to imply that God can change His mind ( the famous discourse for Sodom and Gomorrah comes to mind) BUT I don't think these are cases of God changing His mind as much as they are cases of God allowing humans to see the full consequences of what they believe ( No good was found in Sodom and Gomorrah).
As for prayers, while God KNOW what will happen and His Will is Just, the reason we prayer for others isn't to change His mind ( I hope no one thinks they can do that), it is to voice our concern and support for others.
Personally I never ask God to heal or same anyone, I think His mind on that persons fate is made up, so I ask for Him to strength the person and the people around them for whatever may come.

[IceMobster]

See... So many answers that differentiate on the same question... Meaning the truth (for that certain matter) is unknown or corrupted.

As for prayers, while God KNOW what will happen and His Will is Just, the reason we prayer for others isn't to change His mind ( I hope no one thinks they can do that), it is to voice our concern and support for others.

What is the use of our voice of concern and support to God? It changes nothing since we do not change His will (nor the whatever situation) and hence is rendered useless.

[RickD]

IceMobster wrote:
See... So many answers that differentiate on the same question... Meaning the truth (for that certain matter) is unknown or corrupted.

Not that any of us who posted here are the final say on truth, but I just reread all the responses, and I don't see any of them contradicting another, in any meaningful way.

[Kurieuo]

Ice, I see a deeper problem that emerges over and over again in your posts here.

I have a feeling from our previous exchanges and seeing your posts over time, that what continues to "haunt" you is Nihilistic thoughts regarding truth and knowledge. It seems, perhaps in education, perhaps not, that you've become acquainted with extreme skepticism, likely presented to you over religious matters (which is often the target). And yet, you took this rule and rather than simply apply it with bias to questions of God, now linger in uncertainty with regards to anything truly ever being known. Now, I might be off, you don't seem so far down the Nihilistic pathway, which is why I say the thought of ever being able to know truth merely "haunts" you.

The good news is, that philosophical thinking in this area is quite developed. Questions to do with knowledge and truth, and I think many do come back from a Nihilism that Post-Modernity often leaves us with regarding truth (and which has seeped into Western education even, a very relativistic mentality which says that's your truth but mine is different). So then, you can further yourself here, by reading books, particularly to do with epistemology, warranted belief, epistemic justification and the like. You really need to form your own foundation on such, but trust me when I say it is a foundation that can be formed, which you can build for yourself.

Now, I hope you won't mind me presenting a Christian philosopher, I suspect any prejudice you might have had against "Christians" has long past, since you often see through mud slung our way which just seems like absolutely foolishness. At the same time, there are many Christians who carry foolish beliefs too, but by and large, I don't think you harvest bias against Christians like say much of a secular and now largely humanist society would.

So then, I'd recommend to you starting with Alvin Plantinga who wrote a series of books on such. I did a peripheral Google search and came across the following two I'd recommend to you. You might not understand everything, but I'm sure the parts you do, will be enough to at least start building your own theories on knowledge and truth. And such, I think, would be particularly helpful to you finding the "truth" you seek with much certainty (something I believe can be had).

Two PDFs I came across online by Plantinga are:

• Warrant: The Current Debate
• Warranted Christian Belief

The first is an earlier work, which provides an analysis of the debate, different positions and the like. The second, is a later work, which as the title gives away, has to do with providing warrant for Christian belief. It's not light reading, but I'd you'll find much to be interesting reading. I could do with brushing up myself on theory of knowledge.

In any case, perhaps I'm way off on this, but I think if you spend some time reading through these that you'll start being able to become more certain in your own knowledge of things, calling some people wrong and others more correct. Really, on any particular issue.

[Mallz]

I'm pretty sure we can agree that God is immutable, but is His will, also?

If His will is immutable...

Well, why pray then? Here I do not have prayers of thanks or prayers of praise/worship (of God, of course) in mind, but our prayers for others. Say someone you know is led astray/out of the Path and so you pray to God to have him healed.
First, why do you think you can change His will? How can a sinner affect the will of God? I can't grasp that.
Anyway, secondly, you can't even know what God's will is concerning that particular situation (you praying for that other person) or even in general, so how do you know any of your prayers or lack thereof did anything?
Thirdly, by praying for others you want God to see that certain individual as "privileged" and help him rather than someone who is not being prayed for. Will God rather help that who is being prayed for? If not, then there is no use of such a prayer. If so, God is a slot machine in which you insert a coin (prayer) and receive the result.
Conclusion? If His will is immutable, there is no need for prayers to others (or perhaps even for oneself).

If His will is not immutable...

What consequences does that draw? I don't know, I haven't thought about this side that much. What even is God's will, lol? That being which is not immutable is no longer God, I guess. Right?

Our relationship with God is supposed to be one of intimacy. Knowing His will, like knowing a good friends will, or spouses. Which really just boils down to how much you intimately know a person. The point of 'prayer' is walking with Him 'pray without ceasing..'. We can know Him through all our senses, but only Him intimately by His revelation. I believe the Bible is a historical account and not a fantastic tale (even though it is..). So, I learn from what I see as His word and apply it to life and through personal revelations that come from attempting to walk with Him.

As to how 'prayer' is effective.. I think He wants us to have (and gives us) the ability (as His image) to affect existence (with or without Him). Which is what I can see from James 5:16. Effective prayer, prayer that is in His will, is us living intimately with Him with existence in harmony and expressing Him to everything (instead of ourselves or others). I see answered prayers as us taking up the responsibility to bring Him into existence as we were created to be. And He allows Himself (in a somewhat similar way to how Jesus emptied Himself in the incarnation), to have us as His workers who will either bring Himself, or something else into the world. And all this by His desire (working like a family).

[PaulSacramento]

See... So many answers that differentiate on the same question... Meaning the truth (for that certain matter) is unknown or corrupted.

As for prayers, while God KNOW what will happen and His Will is Just, the reason we prayer for others isn't to change His mind ( I hope no one thinks they can do that), it is to voice our concern and support for others.

What is the use of our voice of concern and support to God? It changes nothing since we do not change His will (nor the whatever situation) and hence is rendered useless.

Ah, opinions...
never to be confused with FACTS or truths by the way.