The Mark of the Beast

[EssentialSacrifice]

Paul wrote:
Again, in regards to confession, nowhere do you read the words of jesus stating that we MUST confess our sins to anyone other than Him and Our Father.

ES replied ... again ...
If you believe the bible is the word of God then it should not matter if it is God Himself or the ones He has chosen and utilizes for salvation, who speak of confession...

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Acts 19:18
Many also of those who had believed kept coming, confessing and disclosing their practices.
James 5:16
Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.
Proverbs 28:13
He who conceals his transgressions will not prosper,But he who confesses and forsakes them will find compassion.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Acts 17:30
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,

Do these verses seem implied to you ? They explicitly use the word confession or repentance (external acknowledgement of sin + remorse = confession). Does that satisfy ? IDK i really don't. I don't know what you believe these verses say. They aren't the words of Christ but are from the chosen ones who should be inspired (or they wouldn't be in the book) by God. Do you trust these words as you say or not ?

Paul wrote:
in regards to public mass, Christ was very critical of it

ES, Christ can be critical of something as he was with the way public masses were going ( and still go to this day) and NOT be against them.
To be critical of something doesn't mean you disagree with it;s meaning BUT how it is being done.
Jesus being critical of mass in His time is echoed by many in our time.

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/6-5.htm

There are a half dozen commentaries on this verse Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers, Benson Commentary, Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary, Barnes' Notes on the Bible, Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary and Pulpit Commentary there are more if you like and not one of them sees Christ criticize the mass, only the way some people present themselves during the mass. You have skewed the basic intent and manipulated the words to reach your conclusion. Christ has a critical eye on the pseudo believer with all their pretense, but not issued a word against the assembly for public mass, as you want. You'll need to come up with another verse for proof Christ was critical of the mass and not the people involved.

Paul wrote:
I do not confess to anyone other than Him.

Either do I. We do pray/ask forgiveness to Christ every time we go to confession ... directly through the priest who has the same priestly relationship as a mediator of Christ. Exactly as the priestly class of Jews would be used for atonement to God for sins of the ancient Jew.

Paul supplied:
13 Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, [k]anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer [l]offered in faith will [m]restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, [n]they will be forgiven him. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective [o]prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

agreed, this is a good verse ... see how St.James separates illnesses for healing.

When it comes to one “suffering;” St. James says, “Let him pray.” “Is any cheerful? Let him sing praise.” But when it comes to sickness and personal sins, he tells his readers they must go to the “elders”—not just anyone—in order to receive this “anointing” and the forgiveness of sins. Hebrews 7:23. It explicitly says to go to the elders for anointing and forgiveness of sin. It explicitly calls out for a specific ( if he has committed sins) remedy for this specific illness (sin)... go to the elders, the priestly, best versed of the community for reparation and wellness with God through those elders.
"The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much." The effective prayer of many righteous within the collected community can do more. Come to my church and see.

[PaulSacramento]

Either do I. We do pray/ask forgiveness to Christ every time we go to confession ... directly through the priest who has the same priestly relationship as a mediator of Christ. Exactly as the priestly class of Jews would be used for atonement to God for sins of the ancient Jew.

There is NO mediator between Us and Christ and ONLy Christ is Our mediator with our Father.
That is where we are different my friend.
While I respect that you choose to place priests between you and Christ or as a mediator instead of Christ, I most certianly do not and never will.
Call no one else your father other than your Father in heaven.
Matthew 23:

23 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. 4 They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. 5 But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their [a]phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments. 6 They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men. 8 But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. 11 But the greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

There is no mediator between Us and God, except Christ:
1 Timothy 2:

3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the [c]knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

The OC has been fulfilled, there is no need for a priestly class to "be used for atonement".
Christ has fulfilled all and through the HS, we learn all:

1 John 2New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Christ Is Our Advocate
2 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an [a]Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

7 Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. 8 [c]On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining. 9 The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. 10 The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11 But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

12 I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake. 13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father. 14 I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

Do Not Love the World
15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. 17 The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.

18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that [d]it would be shown that they all are not of us. 20 [e]But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and [f]because no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the [g]Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

The Promise Is Eternal Life
25 This is the promise which He Himself [h]made to us: eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not [j]shrink away from Him in shame [k]at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is [l]born of Him.

[EssentialSacrifice]

Paul wrote:
While I respect that you choose to place priests between you and Christ or as a mediator instead of Christ, I most certianly do not and never will.

In that doctorate, weren't there any classes on the Catholic faith ? you choose to place priests between you and Christ or as a mediator instead of Christ, Seriously Paul ...

Catholics believe only God can forgive sin. The sacrament of Penance is the way which God has chosen to administer that forgiveness. Jesus exercised the power to forgive sins "that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (Mt 8:6). And Jesus to the Apostles in Jn 20:21-23 reads: "... As the Father has sent Me, so
I send you. And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them:'Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained." This power is specific to sin. Jesus Christ did not bestow the power and responsibility to forgive sins to the Apostles and their successors knowing that all one needed to do was to seek forgiveness through prayer. The Church does not deny that sins will be forgiven via prayer directly to God, given of course that there's true repentance coupled with firm resolution to avoid this sin in the future; however, the only way we can be sure of proper disposition of the forgiveness of sin with absolute certainty is via the means established by Christ - the sacrament of Penance. http://www.scborromeo.org/papers/confess

And as this power was bestowed upon the Apostles, it was to be inherited by their successors, continuing His presence throughout time (Mt 28:19-20). Yes, Paul, Jesus is the one Mediator, but that does not deny Him from choosing others to assist Him in his work. One Mediator redeemed us, Jesus Christ.

The Catholic Priest, in the sacrament of Penance, does not redeem us; he is but an agent of the one Mediator, and assigned and empowered by the one Mediator.

Confession is but one way of applying the mediation of Christ to men - Baptism is another, and If you believe your Baptism "took" then you have to believe the Holy Spirit is personally indwelling, ( God within you) to save you from your sins, just as it is for the priest's personal indwelling of the Holy Spirit to assist in Christ's forgiveness of sins. If you believe the HS can be Baptismally indwelling in you there isn't any reason to not believe that same God, in the person of Jesus Christ can work salvatory confessional Penance for his followers within the confines of His (agent) priest..

[AmySeilnum]

You really need to re-think what you think you know because you still do not know the difference between the "beast" the anti-christ and the "lamb with two horns" nor do you have understanding about the roles they play.You cannot have understanding until you realize they are two different people working together. We have an anti-christ and the lamb with two horns and they are not the same people.

If you have understanding, based on the Bible, you would be able to share the Bible verses, no?


1. Revelation never uses the term "anti-Christ" True or False?

2. Christ said many would come in His name and do great signs and wonders.
Matthew 24:24-26 True or False?

3. Paul said the anti-Christ would sit in the temple of God and do great seeming miracles.
2 Thessalonians 2:3-11 True or False?

4. The beast of Revelation 13:1-10 is not described as doing any miracles. True or False?

5. Clearly John says; Revelation 13:11
"I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb"
True or False?

6. Beast #2 is described as doing miracles; Revelation 13:11-18 True or False?

7 Revelation 19:20 clearly describes two people being thrown into the lake of fire;
the beast and false prophet. True or False?

If you want to claim that any of the above points are false, you would have to provide clear scripture to back up that claim, please note that I am just reiterating what the Bible clearly says.

If you see them all as true, well then realize that clearly it is the 2nd beast that does the miracles, which clearly matches up with the words of Christ and Paul, clearly beast #2 is the anti-Christ.

And yes, beast#1 and beast#2 work together, i described that in frightening detail in my "little book" post. One would be required to have the image in order to communicate with the second beast.

In Revelation 19:20 the second beast is called the 'false prophet'
This is because Christ was and is the True Prophet; Deuteronomy 18:18-19
But the book of Revelation never uses the term "anti-Christ"

Your seeming to want to use the term as if there are 3, beast, anti-Christ, false prophet.
But that is clearly not the case, there are only 2 spoken of in Revelation, the beast and false prophet. Putting all scripture together makes it clear that 'false-prophet' is the term Revelation uses to refer to the anti-Christ, the one who "has two horns like a lamb, but speaks as a dragon"
Revelation 13:11-18


Clearly based on Daniel 7:23 and Revelation 17:8-12 beast #1 is a kingdom,
with 7 major kings; Revelation 17:10-11, and 10 minor kings; Revelation 17:12.
Clearly Revelation 17 is just giving more detail about the same beast from Revelation 13:1-10.
The fourth kingdom of the earth; Daniel 7:23; the empire of the 3 city states.
One of the kings of that kingdom will seem to be wounded then healed; Revelation 13:3.
Afterwards a false prophet does miracles in the presence of this wounded/healed king;
Revelation 13:12-18. That is what the Bible is clearly telling us.

[goingsouth]

The mark of the beast isn't worldwide. It's limited to the 10/7 nation empire of the beast. What makes people think this mark or the anti-Christ kingdom is worldwide? It's what they've been taught. They put their trust in these teachers because they're THE PROPHECY EXPERTS!

[Stu]

The mark of the beast isn't worldwide. It's limited to the 10/7 nation empire of the beast. What makes people think this mark or the anti-Christ kingdom is worldwide? It's what they've been taught. They put their trust in these teachers because they're THE PROPHECY EXPERTS!

So you only trust what prophecy God gives YOU? Only YOU?
That's ridiculous - God said in the latter days that many will experience prophecy.

If their prophecy proves to be true then why can we not believe it.
On the other hand many false prophets have come and gone, even (or should that be 'especially' recently) recently.

[goingsouth]

The mark of the beast isn't worldwide. It's limited to the 10/7 nation empire of the beast. What makes people think this mark or the anti-Christ kingdom is worldwide? It's what they've been taught. They put their trust in these teachers because they're THE PROPHECY EXPERTS!

So you only trust what prophecy God gives YOU? Only YOU?
That's ridiculous - God said in the latter days that many will experience prophecy.

If their prophecy proves to be true then why can we not believe it.
On the other hand many false prophets have come and gone, even (or should that be 'especially' recently) recently.

That's not what I said nor what I implied. Christians tend to believe what they're taught. I know I did for the first 20 or so years of my walk with Christ. Prophecy or not, God often doesn't enlighten people who accept the teachings of others without researching those teachings themselves. People too often just accept what they're taught without doing their OWN unbiased study. Too often Christians research and approach the scriptures with bias, affirming what they already believe, with the mindset they already know what the scriptures teach. God gives me nothing without me diligently seeking truth through a sensible hermeneutic.

[Philip]

GoingSouth: God gives me nothing without me diligently seeking truth through a sensible hermeneutic.

I doubt the Apostle Paul said that after his trip toward Damascus!

[goingsouth]

GoingSouth: God gives me nothing without me diligently seeking truth through a sensible hermeneutic.

I doubt the Apostle Paul said that after his trip toward Damascus!

Paul wasn't on a mission seeking truth, he was against it. Paul did have a hermeneutic since he was a Pharisee and that's why he was killing people. He strongly believed in what he was doing.

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that seek the Lord shall not want any good thing.

So now tell me what a converted murderous Pharisee has to do with God enlightening those of us who have a hermeneutic?

[goingsouth]

What I'm saying in the quote...

"God gives me nothing without me diligently seeking truth through a sensible hermeneutic."

When it comes to understanding prophecy or contentious doctrines, my experience is....

TRUTH (speaking about prophecy and contentious issues) can only be acquired through a sensible hermeneutic. If I approach the scriptures with diligence, putting effort into understanding God's Word utilizing good bible resources, I'm blessed. When I approached the scriptures without using good resources, and only with prayer, I usually didn't get a deep and correct understanding. All I benefited from it was a general understanding. Putting EFFORT in interpretation through word studies etc., bible dictionaries and the lexicons etc. takes time, but what a difference.

Good scripture interpretation is an acquired skill. The 'experts' tell us what they believe, but how often do they show us HOW they arrive at their conclusions? A hermeneutic is the ONLY way I know of to show people how I arrive at my conclusions.

People who drive cars are a good example. Most people can drive competently, but do they have the knowledge, skills, and tools to repair the car?

In the same way, Christians who have a bible know how to read and understand it for the most part, but do they have the skills and tools necessary to correctly interpret it? In the internet age, it's amazing the tools and resources we have available to us at the click of a mouse. It's also amazing the amount of misinformation out there.

Christians seem unwilling to change their mind these days. Rather than admit a mistake, they would rather adhere to what they already believe regardless of the mountain of evidence AGAINST their beliefs, or the mountain of evidence FOR something else.

I've said for years now that it's easier to take a sliver out of the back side of a wild cat than it is to change the mind of a Christian.

What's in your toolbox?

[RickD]

Goingsouth,

Maybe you need to practice what you preach a little better. To say that Jesus says that he's less than the Father, ontologically, as you claim, just shows you are unwilling to change your beliefs, despite the overwhelming evidence.

[goingsouth]

Maybe you need to practice what you preach a little better. To say that Jesus says that he's less than the Father, ontologically, as you claim, just shows you are unwilling to change your beliefs, despite the overwhelming evidence.

I have no problem accepting God's Word at face value. If Jesus said God is greater...I BELIEVE HIM! If Jesus says that no man, he, or the angels KNOWS the day and hour of the his return...I BELIEVE HIM!

So I am practicing what I preach. You just are having trouble accepting the words of Jesus because they quite literally debunk trinitarianism!

[RickD]

Maybe you need to practice what you preach a little better. To say that Jesus says that he's less than the Father, ontologically, as you claim, just shows you are unwilling to change your beliefs, despite the overwhelming evidence.

I have no problem accepting God's Word at face value. If Jesus said God is greater...I BELIEVE HIM! If Jesus says that no man, he, or the angels KNOWS the day and hour of the his return...I BELIEVE HIM!

So I am practicing what I preach. You just are having trouble accepting the words of Jesus because they quite literally debunk trinitarianism!

I have no trouble accepting the words of Jesus. I have trouble with your misinterpretation of them. Jesus is not claiming that he is not fully God.

[goingsouth]

I have no trouble accepting the words of Jesus. I have trouble with your misinterpretation of them. Jesus is not claiming that he is not fully God.

Then you would have no problem explaining the verses I quoted, and just HOW I misinterpreted them.

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him."

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

In two verses above Jesus proves that God is greater and in the other that he IS NOT ALL KNOWING. In the following verse, Jesus is NOT saying that he IS all powerful!

"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

[RickD]

"It should be obvious by now, that Jesus did not mean He was less than God, or an inferior god, when He said that God ("the Father") was "greater" than He was. Jehovah's Witnesses, Unitarians, and other Arians interpret Jesus' words here this way. Arius was a heretic in the early church who denied Jesus' full deity. Jesus was not speaking ontologically (i.e., dealing with His essential being, His nature), since He had affirmed repeatedly that He and the Father were one ontologically (1:1-2; 10:30; 14:9; 20:28).


Rather, he was speaking of the Father's relative glory compared to Jesus' glory. Jesus had laid His heavenly glory aside in the Incarnation, but the Father had not done so, and consequently enjoyed greater glory than the Son during Jesus' earthly ministry. However, now Jesus was about to return to the Father, and to the greater glory that He would again share with the Father. This glorification should have caused the disciples to rejoice, but they sorrowed instead, because they focused on themselves too much."

http://soniclight.org/constable/notes/pdf/john.pdf