Understanding the Trinity

[crochet1949]

Hi -- I've been reading through this thread with great interest. Especially because 'goingsouth' on This forum is "trump-it' on another Forum I've been on. I've been trying to talk with him on This subject as well as the 'antichrist' over There. He's a self-studier and is out to convince the rest of us that we are being led astray and that he has the correct understanding.

Kur -- has been doing a wonderful job of explaining to 'goingsouth'.

He's even Stronger in a negative way over There regarding the trinity.

No one is going to completely understand the trinity -- God is not fully understandable -- if He Was, He wouldn't be God.
But, without the trinity -- salvation would not be possible.

[RickD]

Hi -- I've been reading through this thread with great interest. Especially because 'goingsouth' on This forum is "trump-it' on another Forum I've been on. I've been trying to talk with him on This subject as well as the 'antichrist' over There. He's a self-studier and is out to convince the rest of us that we are being led astray and that he has the correct understanding.

Kur -- has been doing a wonderful job of explaining to 'goingsouth'.

He's even Stronger in a negative way over There regarding the trinity.

No one is going to completely understand the trinity -- God is not fully understandable -- if He Was, He wouldn't be God.
But, without the trinity -- salvation would not be possible.

Crochet,

I just want to thank you for this post. It's encouraging to know that there are members here who see that some people come here only to argue against essential Christian doctrine, for the sake of trying to convince us that we're wrong. It's one thing to want to have a conversation, and actually listen to what others have to say. But it's another thing entirely, to just come here to peddle one's beliefs, to try to lead people from sound doctrine. I've grown extremely tired of certain member(s) who accuse me of being a bully because I tend to quickly shut down people who come here to preach false doctrine. Arguing against essential Christian beliefs, such as Christ being Fully God, is against the forum rules. As a moderator, I tend to be very lenient as far as giving people the freedom to speak their mind. But, arguing against essential Christian doctrine, and leading others astray, will not be tolerated. If I'm called a bully for enforcing forum rules in this regard, then so be it.

[crochet1949]

I feel kind of sorry for the guy -- he was having somewhat of an adult temper tantrum over at the other Forum. One of the moderators over there was questioning him as to why he refused to respond to my question as to how a person can get saved. Said he has no use for OSAS or for salvation by grace and grace alone.

I've known of a few people - mostly men - who've done a Lot of self-study. No association with a church. That can lead to all sorts of problems. The Holy Spirit is meant to be our teacher -- help us discern truth from fiction -- but a person Can ignore the guidance Of and without the imput of others - a person Can get really messed up in their understanding Of.

Rules Do need to be enforced or people won't take it seriously.

[Philip]

There is a reason why God uses teachers and pastors to instruct - as only those who have a correct understanding and training in Scripture, the Biblical principles of interpretation, etc. should be doing so. A little Scripture in the wrong hands can be a really dangerous thing! Incorrect applications of interpretation, inattention to context, cherrypicking verses out of context, applying understandings of similar passages meant to address differing things, interpreting more clear passages per ones with more challenging understandings - these can all lead to false beliefs and warped understandings.

I personally have long anguished over false beliefs my sister has over discerning God's will. She thinks God will show her exactly what important decisions she needs to be making. She often appears to think that she is not to move forward on a matter until God reveals to her exactly what to do. Guess how she knows what he has revealed? It is when her FEELINGS determine the right, wrong or appropriateness of her actions. Guess what, her feelings seem to magically match up with what she wants - "Ah, see, God has confirmed for me what I feel." She also thinks that God will always give her a perfect peace about the right actions or decisions she is to make, and before she does them. These false theological beliefs have kept her on the same spot, timid to take any risks that her feelings are telling her that "God doesn't want her to." She seems to believe that there is only ONE right action - as opposed to the freedom of will to make her own decisions within God's stated principles and moral teachings. So, instead of making a decision within God's principles and then stepping out in faith that God will SUBSEQUENTLY guide her path, she thinks He must show her and THEN she will act. But that's not faith.

As with my sister, so often, when someone challenges a person's false spiritual or theological beliefs, their response is to double down, often angrily, and insist that you are the one wrong. And typically, no level of providing them Scriptural information with sway them. False beliefs of Christians can rule and sometimes ruin aspects of their life. But God will have to show them differently - as no one else can. Particularly not a sibling.

But Rick is right - people here refusing correction on clearly false Bible teachings - one has to take a very firm stand. Otherwise, they will only repeatedly attempt to spread them by spamming up the forum with nonsense. And thus they also wasted untold amounts of time of those trying to correct them. So, once we see that a person is here with an agenda to spread false beliefs - we just have to take a firm stand. And the result of that is almost always anger and victim-playing.

[crochet1949]

I think that churches can run into problems when they allow most everyone into membership without Really questioning them as to their salvation. And what they believe doctrinally compared to what the church teaches. And, these days, the Praise and Worship leaders / team. And to the neglect of the older hymns that are rich in doctrine. Obviously we go to church TO praise and worship God. I'm a more sedate worshipper. I find it almost Non-worshipful to get 'clap happy' and I don't do it. I stand up with everyone else. Enjoy the singing -- listen to what I'm singing.

Pastors need to encourage their people to dig in and study Bible on their own and then share what they learn in organized Bible study groups at their church.

Oh, yes, the discerning God's will for your life. And, maybe as a woman, I can appreciate your sister's perspective. Seems like men have a better understanding/ handle-on discerning God's Will. Maybe that's why Men are to be the spiritual leaders in church and in the home. But for single women -- they have Sunday School teachers -- Bible study leaders. Pastor's wives. God's Word -- prayer. And we Are to live by faith and not by sight. And That can be hard to do.

How old is your sister?

Isn't God's peace about a decision a good place To start? If I Don't have peace about a given situation, why Do it? And there are plenty of situations where making a decision is more common sense than anything/ do I wash the dishes or read my Bible 'now'. Well -- the dishes Do need to get washed and I Do need to read my Bible. Am I procrastinating about either of those two activities? Just DO it. Do I go grocery shopping Now or do a load of wash? Not really necessary to Pray about it? Just DO one or the other. Do I change Jobs? Do I 'whatever'? It's not really accomplishing anything positive by wringing your hands about it. And it Might be an indication of lack of self-confidence in decision-making ability. God has given us a good brain to work with. When contemplating a choice -- write down the pros and cons -- ask a friend for their perspective -- and Lots of times there aren't really Wrong decisions that a person would incur the wrath of God over.

Are we possibly simply afraid to live life Period.

False beliefs / theological beliefs -- sharing Scripture with a person -- don't try 'pushing' Scripture down their throat. The Holy Spirit works within a person's heart with Scripture. Our timing isn't especially God's timing. We Do need to let people live their lives regardless of whether we agree with their choices.

Churches need to do the same thing. Church discipline isn't popular and isn't practice much these days. The idea Should be to draw the person Back , not put them Out. Often, though, the person's choice will be To leave because they Don't like 'correction'.

Enough preaching for one post

[Philip]

My sister is about 53. Instead of Scriptural understandings that reveal how to discern God's will, she constantly pursues feelings and mysticism. God RARELY shows us exactly what to do (although there are rare times when he does). But He has given us His principles, found in Scripture, as to how to go about seeking His will. As long as we make decisions that are based upon the Biblical instructions for how we are to go about the decision-making process - then God can honor our choices made. God is not limited to just ONE perfect decision we need to make - as if WE don't make the perfect choice, then He cannot bless us. It does not work like that. And so, many people who think like this, are seeking answers that line up with their feelings - which are so often to only do what seems safe and certain (how convenient, eh?). But THAT is not showing faith. Faith is first praying, seeking wisdom (and from Godly people where they have the appropriate understandings and expertise), making a decision based upon God's principles, and then using our own good judgment and discernment (and the free will He gave us), and THEN stepping out in faith before we know the outcome. Yes, there are times to wait and not rush forward. But forever sitting on the spot waiting upon God's specific instructions before ever moving forward - that's not Biblical! Having a sense of our FEELINGS is NOT the same as God instructing us. And our feelings are often so timid, lacking in confidence, etc., that we choose what we feel is safe and then convince ourselves that God wants us to sit on the spot.

Think Moses and others always had a perfect peace before moving forward in Faith???!!!

[crochet1949]

Mysticism is something I've heard about, but don't really know much about. But it sounds like of 'way out there'. If I may ask what denomination she identifies with. You said she's about 53, so she's got some life experience to relate back to. And probably very set in her ways.

And, you're right -- we are to be growing /maturing spiritually. Some people are real go-getters / always seem to get things done. Others are more followers / helpers. And that's what I am.

The 'by faith' chapter -- full of people who /by faith/ did what God instructed them. One step at a time. And, yes, I Do believe they had inner peace about moving forward in Faith.

Accepting Jesus Christ as personal Savior is THE most important decision a person will ever make. Marriage / singleness is the next in importance.

[Philip]

Crochet: Mysticism is something I've heard about, but don't really know much about. But it sounds like of 'way out there'.

She is a definitely saved evangelical Christian. It's just that she looks to mysticism for answers as to how she should make decisions. In her case, its a false belief of some unScriptural Christian mysticism she trusts in is that she THINKS God is showing her exactly what to do or not to do, but as constantly perceived by her feelings. Mysticism is the unknown, the mysterious. And so, if GOD is not the one showing her exactly what to do, in a given situation - then who or what is informing her? It's her feelings! But she interprets her feelings as an accurate gauge of what God wants her to do. And so, she repeatedly deceives herself. She thinks God will show her exactly what decisions to make beforehand. And that He'll always give her a sense of peace to know her decisions or options are good ones. Consequently, things she is nervous about trying or deciding are always perceived as God telling her to not make a move. Or things she wants - well, her feelings tell her to pursue it - so that is perceived as God's will for her. That's not Scriptural - and it's not acting in faith. It's being guided by one's own false beliefs that their feelings are always indicative of God's desires and directives. VERY dangerous. And our feelings are not only often highly incorrect, but they are typically self-serving of our inner desires. People can convince themselves that all manner of self-driven motivations are indications of God directing them in such a direction.

Again, God's will for us is principle-based upon His Scriptural instructions. RARELY, does God show us exactly what to do. He may only present us options - and within Godly principles and seeking Him in prayer - He gives us freedom to step out in faith and choose options and actions that He can honor, and we are to do so BEFORE we know outcomes. That is what faith is. It's a faith in GOD guiding our path - not faith in us perfectly knowing the ONLY path before we act or make a decision.

[warren631]

IMHO: The biblical references given do not support the opinion of this video's fast talking 'trinity salesman'. Does it really matter anyway? There is only one God (commandment #1). I pray to God via, or in the name of, Lord Jesus. God is the supreme creator, Jesus is the intermediary, messenger and facilitator between God and humans. The Holy Spirit is God's influence on humans, or conscience, that differentiates us from all other evolving animals.

[Kurieuo]

Jesus is YHWH and the supreme creator. Don't you think such matters if true?

[Kurieuo]

The video you likely watched (given you probably didn't get far through them) deals with the logic of what the Trinity is. Not necessarily scriptural support for such, which is had in later videos.

The wrong idea of the Trinity is that such means three gods but one God, which is clearly nonsensical and ought to be immediately rejected by anyone with some sense.

So, the video you watched, I wouldn't call the guy a salesman more than simply clarifying what the doctrine is. You obviously reject it, but it'd first be wise I think to know what it is exactly you're rejecting. Whether or not you accept such is another question.

Here is another video however, this one I think you will like. It's to do with the Holy Spirit. I feel it doesn't go far enough, they avoid certain personal traits presented in Scripture. Nonetheless, it is well presented and I think you'll like.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oNNZO9i1Gjc

[crochet1949]

IMHO: The biblical references given do not support the opinion of this video's fast talking 'trinity salesman'. Does it really matter anyway? There is only one God (commandment #1). I pray to God via, or in the name of, Lord Jesus. God is the supreme creator, Jesus is the intermediary, messenger and facilitator between God and humans. The Holy Spirit is God's influence on humans, or conscience, that differentiates us from all other evolving animals.

Regarding the Holy Spirit -- the 3rd person of the Godhead. Many roles, comforter, convicter of sins. He immediately indwells each believer at the moment of their salvation and 'seals' them until they are safely with Jesus Christ for eternity.

[mrtzur2015]

People who don't accept the trinity simply rejecting the bible.
the bible is very clear about this there are many instances where God refers to himself as more than one being
God also as the ultimately never created always existing God created time space and matter (the trinity of trinities)
all at the same time .
as you must know you cannot have matter space and time to exist by themselves because if you had matter without space where would you put it?
if you had matter and space when would you put it?
Genesis 1:1
"In the beginning ( time ) God created the heavens (space) and the earth (matter)" .

also Jesus has to be God because only God can forgive for sins. denying this meaning denying him and making him a lair.