Homosexuality and Chrtistianity

[PaulSacramento]

Ravi Zacharius on homosexuality, a Christian perspective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3394VTfKqGs

IMO, very well stated and, at least for me, very helpful in wording something that I always felt but couldn't articulate.

[RickD]

Great perspective on a very difficult subject.

[Philip]

Throw a few more "softball" questions at him, eh?

Thing is, people think God should accommodate and turn a blind eye to man's sinful desires and activities. They think because they are naturally drawn to whatever sin, that it can't be wrong - as it's a natural desire, right? If I were to justify all manner of things I have lusted after, the lure of various carnal things it is common for many men to lust after - really, there are similar things off limits to me as a heterosexual - yet they are things that I am naturally am drawn to. But God says they are wrong for me, and sinful. Am I sinless? Absolutely not. But while still in my sins, I nonetheless have faith in Christ - but that doesn't make my sins okay. I can't simply pretend they aren't sins. I need to struggle against sinning - and must depend upon God's strength and grace to overcome them. But struggling against sin starts with faith and commitment to Christ and dependence upon Him, and then recognizing what sin is and that God hates it. The more inadequate I realize I am to not sin, the more I realize how bad it truly is, the more I realize my need for God to help me to avoid it. In ONLY my own strength - given my inner desires - I don't stand a chance against certain temptations.

What I see in most non-Christians is that they often either pretend some sin is really just fine. Many help that thinking along by convincing themselves that God doesn't even exist - OR they convince themselves that God is just fine with certain sins.

[PaulSacramento]

I think that is a big difference between how Christians view sex and everyone else.
To us it IS a sacred gift and is to be respected and treated as such BUT others it is just something done for pleasure or procreation ( more for pleasure nowadays).
IMO, that cheapens it considerably.

I know women that put more thought and "quality control" into buying shows that go on their feet than they do choosing men that go into them.
Guys are even worse (though women are giving them a run for their money nowadays).

[RickD]

I understand the "sex is sacred" argument. But I don't understand the comparison between sex being sacred, and race being sacred.

I just don't see the similarity.

[PaulSacramento]

I understand the "sex is sacred" argument. But I don't understand the comparison between sex being sacred, and race being sacred.

I just don't see the similarity.

Is not race something given by God?

[RickD]

I understand the "sex is sacred" argument. But I don't understand the comparison between sex being sacred, and race being sacred.

I just don't see the similarity.

Is not race something given by God?

Given? In what way?

I think you and I would agree why sex is sacred. The bond between one man and one woman, for life, etc.

I just don't see how race is sacred. Just like I don't see how eye color, or height, or hair color, are sacred.

[PaulSacramento]

Ok, maybe it is the wording.
God choose to create mankind with different ethnicity, yes?

[RickD]

Ok, maybe it is the wording.
God choose to create mankind with different ethnicity, yes?

Hmmmm...

Ethnicity? I don't know if I'd say that.

We are born into a specific ethnic group, because of who our parents are/were. I'm not sure if that has anything to do with God "creating" us in our ethnic group.

How is "race" sacred?

I just don't see how the fact that I'm Caucasian, is in any way sacred.

[Philip]

PaulSacramento wrote:
Ok, maybe it is the wording.
God choose to create mankind with different ethnicity, yes?

Rick: Hmmmm...

Ethnicity? I don't know if I'd say that.

We are born into a specific ethnic group, because of who our parents are/were. I'm not sure if that has anything to do with God "creating" us in our ethnic group.

Of course God gave us race - and race is more than just features and skin colors - it's also cultural traits that settle in over time to people in particular places. God created the range of genetic possibilities. Just like He liked creating creatures with a wide range of genetic physical possibilities, He did the same with humans in His genetic coding, and with, over much time, the impact upon the particulars of the environments and times He distributed us in. He knew the results before He distributed us across time and places. There was no purity of race beyond the very first men God made - because differing traits began to quickly show up in offspring. I believe God takes delight in our different features and cultures (that is, the parts of culture that are good and make us all unique. If everyone was just the same - the earth wouldn't be nearly as interesting. And, of course, depending upon whether or not we follow God's instructions for living and teaching each other, our differences can either be celebrated for the interesting diversities, or otherwise it will often be the excuse for men to rage against each other. So, I'd say the sacred bit is in how we perceive and respond to how God has made us different. We're all genetic mutts - no matter what we look individually look like.

[B. W.]

...What I see in most non-Christians is that they often either pretend some sin is really just fine. Many help that thinking along by convincing themselves that God doesn't even exist - OR they convince themselves that God is just fine with certain sins.

Interesting statement...

Maybe due large part that the subject of sin is not taught or addressed very much in the western church these days..
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[RickD]

PaulSacramento wrote:
Ok, maybe it is the wording.
God choose to create mankind with different ethnicity, yes?

Rick: Hmmmm...

Ethnicity? I don't know if I'd say that.

We are born into a specific ethnic group, because of who our parents are/were. I'm not sure if that has anything to do with God "creating" us in our ethnic group.

Of course God gave us race - and race is more than just features and skin colors - it's also cultural traits that settle in over time to people in particular places. God created the range of genetic possibilities. Just like He liked creating creatures with a wide range of genetic physical possibilities, He did the same with humans in His genetic coding, and with, over much time, the impact upon the particulars of the environments and times He distributed us in. He knew the results before He distributed us across time and places. There was no purity of race beyond the very first men God made - because differing traits began to quickly show up in offspring. I believe God takes delight in our different features and cultures (that is, the parts of culture that are good and make us all unique. If everyone was just the same - the earth wouldn't be nearly as interesting. And, of course, depending upon whether or not we follow God's instructions for living and teaching each other, our differences can either be celebrated for the interesting diversities, or otherwise it will often be the excuse for men to rage against each other. So, I'd say the sacred bit is in how we perceive and respond to how God has made us different. We're all genetic mutts - no matter what we look individually look like.

It sounds like you're conflating race and ethnicity.

Anyhoo, I don't find my race, my Caucasianness, sacred.

[Philip]

Rick: It sounds like you're conflating race and ethnicity.

No, those are different things, but the point is that they both have to do with how God designed us and where and when He has placed us - at these things have jelled into ethinicity and race. But as race is not static - it's a perception of the outward manifestation of our features.

Rick: Anyhoo, I don't find my race, my Caucasianness, sacred.

I almost never think of my race. And it's only when someone makes negative issues over it, or our differences, that I do. I am mostly fascinated by people different from me - that look, sound and have different cultural backgrounds. When I first began going up to New England, my understanding of ethnic groups was very limited, as I grew up where you were either black or white - and some shade of each. The Italians I knew in the South got very dark in the summer. I fry like a fish, with that Scots-Irish stuff that burns very quickly (really, there are dead men who have better tans than me). But in New England, at least with the old generation, there still was a lot of ethnic differences that had virtually evaporated in the South - up there, you were either Italian, Luthianian, Irish, Polish, Jewish - or whatever. The food was very different, not only from the South, but the traditions. It was a different world for me. Later, when I went back to college (the second time ), I began hanging out with a lot of Europeans - who were far more different from me than the black Southerners I knew. Eventually, I began working through my church with internationals outreach - with many Asians, some Africans - extremely different. I've always enjoyed the differences as I do exotic foods - I hate the same bland stuff. I think that is a bit of why God made us more so interesting.

The sacredness doesn't come from any one's, or even a collective, similarity, or superiority - it comes because this is how God has made humanity - His Image has flowed in diverse ways into our genes. The RESULT (diverse humanity) is sacred because of WHO made us. We, individually, nor in any racial group, have anything to be proud of how we were made. I also think God wanted us to struggle within our differences, but to apply His instructions in learning how we are to love our "neighbor" to navigate those differences with some wonderful results. Kind of like those early Judaizers - I'm sure they weren't thrilled about Paul's chastisement about Jewish ideas of superiority. Unfortunately, mankind often does the opposite. It's why there are black Jesus posters, very Caucasian-looking Jesus paintings, Hispanic Jesus, etc. - surely our own racial correlation is the one God would have chosen, right?

People who are hung up on their own race - or antagonistic toward my race (or anyone's RACE) - really upset me. Why should someone have pride over how God made them to look? Or the circumstances they were born in that gave them advantages? But the political correctness cuts several ways. One is, that people of any certain race - particularly as to populations of a majority race - aren't supposed to legitimately criticize those of another race (EVEN IF) they totally should be criticized. And when someone does - per automatic PC-thinking - "that's racism." Then you have the whole thing where some will not criticize people they racially self-identify with - even when it's justified and needed. But that's just he world we live in - unfortunately.

Sorry for sounding preachy.

[Kurieuo]

I think that is a big difference between how Christians view sex and everyone else.
To us it IS a sacred gift and is to be respected and treated as such BUT others it is just something done for pleasure or procreation ( more for pleasure nowadays).
IMO, that cheapens it considerably.

It's supported by Robin William's (?) joke:

• Three engineers were arguing about what kind of engineer God is.
  The first says: "God must be a mechanical engineer -- just look at the joints in the human body."
  The second says: "God is an electrical engineer -- just look at the nervous system."
  The third says: "God has to be a civil engineer -- who else would run a waste disposal pipeline through a perfectly good recreational area?"

That's really a secular perspective. Without God, sex is really no more or less serious than a recreational activity. Except, that we as a society have turned it into something serious (damn religious people!). Imagine all the harmless fun we could be having.

[PaulSacramento]

Ravi's point is that we defend against racism, that racism is wrong because the concept of race is sacred.
If race is not sacred, why is racism wrong?
And that flows into sex, if sex is not sacred then homosexuality, promiscuity, adultery, is OK.