Hamster: Only because I've experienced some of it myself. Relax Philip
This lady has made up stuff you can't possibly know - so, please don't defend it. She's made up such an outrageous number of things she asserts to know: "I was fortunate enough to have met a woman a while back who was given that very gift. She was able to see her entire life happening at once. But not just her life, the lives of her entire lineage, past, present and future - down to the minutest details - all happening at once."
So, this lady had knowledge far beyond what any apostle ever did? What she was given included trivial details of thousands of her ancestors? I can't smoke enough stuff to believe that. And there is no way you could know if she was telling the truth about ANY of it. Don't be so gullible! Even Shirley McClaine, as whacked out as she is, won't claim something THAT outrageous! I've heard people say stuff like this in certain circles - but never any proof. It's just like churches supposedly filled with folks with healing gifts - go by any Sunday and there's always empty parking spaces. Jesus shows up - they had to cut a hole in the rood to get someone in. Somethings obviously wrong with such claims of these supernatural gifts. Where's the proof?
Its ok, I understand your point ! It's only until you receive those gifts yourself that you can prove them (to yourself only). I guess that's why Rick mentioned before somewhere that those personal gift's of HS should be kept as just that .. personal (or something like that).
I guess having a "Philip's H.S. Experiential Stuff" forum topic placed right under the "Sacramento's Christian Mysticism" forum topic is unlikely then?.
PaulSacramento wrote:To those that believe that there is no such thing as free will ( Sam Harris) I say this:
The simple fact that we are discussing this, refutes your view and if you don't understand why that is, maybe you should take a basic philosophy class before you think you are "equipped" to debate such things.
It's along the lines of stating an "absolute negative" ( Atheism) or stating that there are NO absolutes.
See what gets me is that the person I was discussing this with was an ex-Christian, who should've known that God can both allow free will and know the future. But, we all have our hang ups.
You do realize that some ( many) people do not WANT their to be free-will, right?
PaulSacramento wrote:To those that believe that there is no such thing as free will ( Sam Harris) I say this:
The simple fact that we are discussing this, refutes your view and if you don't understand why that is, maybe you should take a basic philosophy class before you think you are "equipped" to debate such things.
It's along the lines of stating an "absolute negative" ( Atheism) or stating that there are NO absolutes.
See what gets me is that the person I was discussing this with was an ex-Christian, who should've known that God can both allow free will and know the future. But, we all have our hang ups.
You do realize that some ( many) people do not WANT their to be free-will, right?
Right, bc they can't be held accountable if they don't have free will and so they can do everything they want.
PaulSacramento wrote:To those that believe that there is no such thing as free will ( Sam Harris) I say this:
The simple fact that we are discussing this, refutes your view and if you don't understand why that is, maybe you should take a basic philosophy class before you think you are "equipped" to debate such things.
It's along the lines of stating an "absolute negative" ( Atheism) or stating that there are NO absolutes.
See what gets me is that the person I was discussing this with was an ex-Christian, who should've known that God can both allow free will and know the future. But, we all have our hang ups.
You do realize that some ( many) people do not WANT their to be free-will, right?
Right, bc they can't be held accountable if they don't have free will and so they can do everything they want.
I think you need to reread what you wrote.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
PaulSacramento wrote:To those that believe that there is no such thing as free will ( Sam Harris) I say this:
The simple fact that we are discussing this, refutes your view and if you don't understand why that is, maybe you should take a basic philosophy class before you think you are "equipped" to debate such things.
It's along the lines of stating an "absolute negative" ( Atheism) or stating that there are NO absolutes.
See what gets me is that the person I was discussing this with was an ex-Christian, who should've known that God can both allow free will and know the future. But, we all have our hang ups.
You do realize that some ( many) people do not WANT their to be free-will, right?
Right, bc they can't be held accountable if they don't have free will and so they can do everything they want.
I think you need to reread what you wrote.
Eh, my mind tends to rush and jumble things.
*Right, bc people don't want to be held accountable, so if they don't believe they have free will then they think they can do what they want.
thatkid wrote:
*Right, bc people don't want to be held accountable, so if they don't believe they have free will then they think they can do what they want.
I think you need to reread it again.
Ok, I'll help you out...
If someone doesn't believe he has free will(to make choices), how can he choose(no freewill/no choice) to do what he wants?
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Because God is omniscient -- He knows everything / past, present and future. He gives us free will because we're not puppets who He controls -- we can choose to do what we want -- He knows who will ultimately accept Him and who will reject Him. He allows us to make poor choices and live with the consequences -- make good choices and enjoy the benefits. Learn from our mistakes.
It's not a matter of Letting us have free will -- He's Given it to us.
PaulSacramento wrote:Free will is about making a choice, it doesn't even matter what motivates the choice really, it is the simple acting of choose A over B.
Kurieuo wrote:
thatkidakayoungguy wrote:How can God know everything and let us have free will?
First, God innately knows, there is not process by which God gains His knowledge.
To answer the question in full, I see is best done with questions back. If a fortune teller knew your future, does that mean that you don't have will of your own to bring about your own known future? No, at most it means that in the knowledge of a fortune teller they knew the conclusions of the decisions you would make. Or, how about knowing everything about our past that we do, does that necessarily mean our past actions weren't volitional in some way? No.
The premises aren't sound in the argument being made, it must be shown that God's knowledge of everything is incompatible with free will. This argument doesn't follow to its conclusion without additional unpacking to argue for #1.
1) If God knows the future, then we have no free will.
2) God knows the future.
3) Therefore we have no free will.
More arguments need to be given to support the first premise. I see no clear contradiction between God knowing what we do, and our having a free will to act and decide. So the burden is still on the person making this argument to flesh it out further.
How does God know which we will choose if it is a matter of our own free will?
I always thought that, due to our free will, God can't predict which event will happen but is not shocked or surprised by any event / whatever we choose. I guess that would question His omnipotence then so that's wrong...
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me.
Asking "how" God knows is ignoring what I said (and what it really being said when God is called omniscient), which is there is no process by which God gains his knowledge. "How" God knows makes the assumption God's knowledge is contingent. For example, thinking of God gaining his knowledge because He watches the future playing out in advance like a movie. Knowledge for God isn't gained however (like with us), rather God's knowledge is direct and immediate to Himself.
I don't believe we could call God's nature omniscient if knowledge wasn't inherent to it. Omniscience, to really be a part of God's nature, must be innate to God and not contingent upon external factors to God's nature. God knows because God knows all. Knowing is just part of who God is as God.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
Wouldn't that kind of knowledge be omniscience //having all knowledge. Even though it's only that particular ladies' 'insight' -- it sounds 'fishy'. Someone having gone over the 'edge' somewhat. Sounds kind of like when people are dying / or think they are/ their life 'flashes before their eyes'. Maybe people who are very emotional by nature Are more 'aware'?
Another thought -- God Does know everything that everyone will ever do. Including our salvation. He knows who will accept and who won't. Maybe the 'bottom line' is that We are told to share the Gospel unto salvation with whom ever we can --Not knowing who will accept or reject -- unless God gives us the personal opportunity To lead that person to Christ.
God wants our obedience. There was a situation I'd heard about --a man had been witnessing to a guy who was basically ignoring him. But he continued sharing Anyway -- what he Didn't realize was that there was Another man right around the corner who was hearing and Did accept. The man around the corner was able to share this with the man. So -- we may Never know who is listening in the side-lines who we never see.
