Manchester terrorist attack...

[Kurieuo]

I think you really need to be more tolerant RickD. Here is a video I think you NEED to watch!

[RickD]

I think you really need to be more tolerant RickD. Here is a video I think you NEED to watch!

That folks, is a perfect example of the proper use of sarcasm.

Great video!

[neo-x]

Neo: Whether Islam is evil or not has no bearing on my argument.

Then STOP!!! Because you need not go much further. If you do not recognize that it is ultimately the evil in hearts and minds where terror springs from - people encouraging the butchering of women, children and young people who have absolutely NOTHING to do with the past sins of Western governments. That's a pure excuse that is pathetic on a level that is beyond ridiculous. Of COURSE, one can try to justify whatever kind of murder and mayhem based upon political actions of whatever governments' pasts. And the thinking that this is logical - instead of encouraging dialogue and requesting their concerns be addressed, they think that gives them good reasons to do what they do???!!! And most such groups have butchered countless fellow MUSLIMS - just not Muslims within THEIR own faction - look at the whole Sunni vs Shiites thing.

To rationalize such thinking would be like me, no fan of Putin and the actions of Russia's government in how they have treated and long plotted against America and the West, plotting to maim Russian civilians in their own marketplaces, and thinking that's a rational and fitting just response. It's also buying into the complete fiction that these are rational people who only want reasonable things, and if we'd just do this or that, play nice, etc., they would stop their horrorshow. Anyone believing that is completely clueless. So they're upset about economic injustices, occupation or whatever, and their response is to KILL people - usually as many innocent civilians as possible. And, BTW, they are also using the teachings in the Quran as justification. Rick is right - this is coming from a source of great evil influence. To not recognize that and try to make it seem rational - that's just sick. Why do you think so many MUSLIMS hate terrorism??? Across Britain - most Muslims are ashamed and angry at these terrorist monsters - THEY sure don't think it's a rational response.

Let's not forget that the Islamist groups have drawn targets upon virtually every major Muslim countries' leadership. The Saudi's would dispatch the Persians of Iran in a moment if they could do so. Same with Iran against them. What's at the heart of all of these justifications by the monsters planning these murderous crimes: Islamic teachings based upon the Quran. Face facts! And ALL of the Islamic republics justify their rule upon their religious beliefs and associations. This is a huge reason why there are no Islamic democracies.

You should read more carefully. I said it's irrelevant to MY ARGUMENT. In a sad way your comment reminded me of Gman, for him anyone not pro Isreal was an antisemite. Any body questioning the actions of state of Israel was an anti-semite.

So to address you post. I agree with a majority of what you say. I observe and agree with all you said that Muslims do this and that and it's evil and then some. It is irrelevant because you are making this into a one-sided issue. It isn't. You refuse to accept your countries responsibility into all of it. But perhaps that makes it easier for your country to justify civilian murdering drone strikes, invading other countries and messing with other people's affairs.

You are so mad about muslims killing other muslims, do you know how many your country killed when the invaded afghanistan and iraq the killings that have happened because they botched up the situation and replaced two bad men with monsters called ISIS? or how many innocents got killed via drone strikes in the last 10 years? You end up doing the same thing. You have earned hate. And if you can't see it because you want to pin it on Islam alone then keep believing that, if you must. No wonder your country gets attacked now so often. You actions of the last decade have incited a new generation to come up against you.

I'll give you a simple solution, had you not created Alqeada, OBL in the first place in the cold war, no 9/11 would have ever happened and we would all have been better. Don't you prefer that?

[RickD]

neo wrote:
I'll give you a simple solution, had you not created Alqeada, OBL in the first place in the cold war, no 9/11 would have ever happened and we would all have been better. Don't you prefer that?

Huh?

You seriously think that a group of people whose goal it is to convert the world to Islam, or kill those who won't convert, would've just lived peacefully?

Neo,

I know you can't possibly be that naive.

[neo-x]

neo wrote:
I'll give you a simple solution, had you not created Alqeada, OBL in the first place in the cold war, no 9/11 would have ever happened and we would all have been better. Don't you prefer that?

Huh?

You seriously think that a group of people whose goal it is to convert the world to Islam, or kill those who won't convert, would've just lived peacefully?

Neo,

I know you can't possibly be that naive.

And I'm not, I see that but that still doesn't justify that you train a terrorist group and let them go, rogue, when your work is done...at best what you're saying is a weak "they are wrong too" argument. But I hope you can see that the USA is trying to control everybody with ground troops, espionage, sabotage and war. It has been at war for decades and it has global military presence. It interferes in places without respecting the sovereignty of other nations. And these actions directly result in innocent lives lost.

Not more than a century ago, the British were on the same path, colonizing and enslaving entire continents. It doesn't look much different than what you are afraid Muslims are or will be doing. The only difference is the former was greedy and the latter are religious. But the end result is the same. Global dominance.

EDIT:
And let me emphasize. To me, the British colonization and enslavement of my country and others is as evil to me as and Islamic one. There is no difference to me.
Just because the West doesn't do it religiously, you think it makes you better?
It doesn't. Do you know that under British enslavement of India, there used to be signs on all major public recreational places that read "Dogs and Indians not allowed"?

That is one example. It is these kinds of actions that bred a lot of distrust and hatred for the white man in countries they used to enslave. That's their legacy...your's are different - these people you kill as collateral damage, to them it's war, it's drone strikes, etc etc. And you need to see that for your own sake.

[Philip]

Neo is equating innocents being killed UNINTENTIONALLY and regretfully (MANY calculations and preparations have been used to hopefully avoid killing innocent civilians), as it is impossible to go after known terrorists responsible for and KNOWN to be plotting ever more attacks (as they often hide amongst civilian areas), with terrorists who are INTENTIONALLY murdering and constantly plotting to murder as many Western civilians as they can - people who have not one thing to do with whatsoever the terrorists are supposedly upset over???!!! Only a clueless person makes such a comparison! We have but one choice - go after these guys WHERE they are, or just leave them to freely plot and rain death upon out civilian populations. We have no choice! So, these people are upset about the great sins of our grandfathers governments and the distant past - mistreatments of their past society, and yet they are willing to butcher and murder people living TODAY - people who have not one thing to do with that past. The people they are butchering - look at the victims, girls, boys, babies, pregnant mothers - these are their targets they justify with such excuses??? Neo, you should be embarrassed to float proactive and necessary defensive actions against monsters who have STATED, UNEQUIVOCALLY their intentions - there is NO mercy, no mistaking what they intend to do. Note that IF they would only stop their murderous ways, they'd not have to worry one bit about drones, etc. Ever think about THAT??? Ever notice that many of these terrorists are considered great leaders by their surrounding populations. They are harboring, feeding, equipping and funneling money to them - as a society.

Until such people stop their murdering ways, I could care less what pathetic excuses they use - and as for those trying to make defensive maneuvers an excuse for their murder - just wow! Wonder how all those Muslims that these terrorist groups have murdered - many of them poor and powerless - what did THEY do??? Islamic factions typically hate and are more than ready to and DO kill countless members of rival factions.

READ about this conveniently little "secret" of countless thousands of Muslim victims! http://www.spiegel.de/international/wor ... 60619.html

[RickD]

neo wrote/
That is one example. It is these kinds of actions that bred a lot of distrust and hatred for the white man in countries they used to enslave. That's their legacy...your's are different - these people you kill as collateral damage, to them it's war, it's drone strikes, etc etc. And you need to see that for your own sake.

Now I understand. You hate me because I'm white.

[thatkidakayoungguy]

I think you really need to be more tolerant RickD. Here is a video I think you NEED to watch!

Wow that is good.

[Nicki]

34% would inform the police if they thought somebody they knew was getting involved with people who support terrorism in Syria

So, here we are with Muslims already living in a democratic country, enjoying its freedoms and opportunities, and yet a THIRD of them wouldn't tip the police concerning people they know are involved in dangerous activities with the potential to produce terror-related crimes. Wow! There are nearly 3 million Muslims living in the U.K. - and so a million of them would turn a blind eye to those engaged with dangerous activities and people. And that's just the tip of the iceberg - run that poll amongst new refugees from areas of known, active radical Islamists - I'd bet that percentage, already shockingly high, would be much higher. Who, knowing the stakes of what such people might do, seeing the bodies strewn across news photos, yet wouldn't pass the info along to authorities? On some level, such people think they are going against Allah and their Muslim brothers. So, that would lead me to believe that such people think their god justifies much of the terrorism - after all, it's mostly the "infidels" being slaughtered in the West. Note also, from amongst Muslims enjoying freedoms and benefits in the West - the polar opposite of conditions typical desperate conditions from where they originated - yet among such Muslims is a fertile recruiting ground for the extremists.

I think it's worse that that - it says 34% would inform the police so two-thirds wouldn't.

[Kurieuo]

And I'm not, I see that but that still doesn't justify that you train a terrorist group and let them go, rogue, when your work is done...at best what you're saying is a weak "they are wrong too" argument. But I hope you can see that the USA is trying to control everybody with ground troops, espionage, sabotage and war. It has been at war for decades and it has global military presence. It interferes in places without respecting the sovereignty of other nations. And these actions directly result in innocent lives lost.

Not more than a century ago, the British were on the same path, colonizing and enslaving entire continents. It doesn't look much different than what you are afraid Muslims are or will be doing. The only difference is the former was greedy and the latter are religious. But the end result is the same. Global dominance.

EDIT:
And let me emphasize. To me, the British colonization and enslavement of my country and others is as evil to me as and Islamic one. There is no difference to me.
Just because the West doesn't do it religiously, you think it makes you better?
It doesn't. Do you know that under British enslavement of India, there used to be signs on all major public recreational places that read "Dogs and Indians not allowed"?

That is one example. It is these kinds of actions that bred a lot of distrust and hatred for the white man in countries they used to enslave. That's their legacy...your's are different - these people you kill as collateral damage, to them it's war, it's drone strikes, etc etc. And you need to see that for your own sake.

Just watched this video below, and found it somewhat relevant. To add a bit more context to Islamic ideology that also includes a bit of your own nation's history NeoX regarding the Sikh people of Lahore in time past (around 6m30s in). No doubt, the blame is probably placed on the Sikh people in a largel Islamic dominated Pakistan, just like blame is always put on the Christians, or Buddhists, or Hindus, or Brits, the US, colonisation, this or that.

Let's be clear, a lot of crappy things have been done by Brits, US, Europe, West, Australia, all countries had a lot of bad their hands. Before the last few centuries, it was the East (Muslims) enslaving white Europeans with a slave trade in such of their own. Not to mention the much earlier attacks across Europe. Evidently, that brought a lot of attention to where Muslims disseminated from. Let's never lose context, just because some things in history are buried and become less known, often there are deeper reasons for the way things are and became the way they did.

For everyone's evil, on every side, such doesn't mean the eyesore today that is found in Islamic idealogy is justified or should be ignored, that Manchester is somehow a justified retributive act because of all the evils "the West" have committed in the East, does it? Muslims seem to be the ones who do the most harm, even to others identifying as Muslims.

Nothing could change my mind in believing that Islam is a worse idealogy than Nazism. In fact, it has much in common with such, only I see it is on steroids. It shares the same goals in relation to Jewish people being wiped from the face of the planet, and indeed many Muslims would love that.

Islam is unlike any other religion on the face of the earth for all the wrong reasons.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zExlefrTv4

[neo-x]

Neo is equating innocents being killed UNINTENTIONALLY and regretfully (MANY calculations and preparations have been used to hopefully avoid killing innocent civilians), as it is impossible to go after known terrorists responsible for and KNOWN to be plotting ever more attacks (as they often hide amongst civilian areas), with terrorists who are INTENTIONALLY murdering and constantly plotting to murder as many Western civilians as they can - people who have not one thing to do with whatsoever the terrorists are supposedly upset over???!!! Only a clueless person makes such a comparison! We have but one choice - go after these guys WHERE they are, or just leave them to freely plot and rain death upon out civilian populations. We have no choice! So, these people are upset about the great sins of our grandfathers governments and the distant past - mistreatments of their past society, and yet they are willing to butcher and murder people living TODAY - people who have not one thing to do with that past. http://www.spiegel.de/international/wor ... 60619.html

Calling me clueless doesn't really strengthen the argument, Philip. And it shows the problem. What you call the distant past is only distant to you. We live with its effects today and if you understand that and know that you are dealing with a society and culture which values their past, legacy, tradition and culture, you wouldn't say something so futile. The truth is your actions over there have a lasting effect here.

Imagine if you had to be slaves to the Russians in your own country (if you could conceive it) for a century or two, how long do you think it would take to wither the effect of that? It's not easy.

You say we have no choice...you had one but you butchered it when you went into Iraq. So don't think that others should pay for your mistake. They shouldn't.

You had a choice but you chose to birth OBL and made him a hero in the Soviet war...you should have never had trained or funded him in the first place.

I'm astonished that it is so difficult for you to accept your own history and own up to it.

Killing someone unintentionally or regretfully isn't really much different then killing them intentionally.

Let me ask you this if you found out that a known terrorist is in an American bank, with 200 American citizens inside the bank with him, would you still drone it, "regretfully"?

[neo-x]

And I'm not, I see that but that still doesn't justify that you train a terrorist group and let them go, rogue, when your work is done...at best what you're saying is a weak "they are wrong too" argument. But I hope you can see that the USA is trying to control everybody with ground troops, espionage, sabotage and war. It has been at war for decades and it has global military presence. It interferes in places without respecting the sovereignty of other nations. And these actions directly result in innocent lives lost.

Not more than a century ago, the British were on the same path, colonizing and enslaving entire continents. It doesn't look much different than what you are afraid Muslims are or will be doing. The only difference is the former was greedy and the latter are religious. But the end result is the same. Global dominance.

EDIT:
And let me emphasize. To me, the British colonization and enslavement of my country and others is as evil to me as and Islamic one. There is no difference to me.
Just because the West doesn't do it religiously, you think it makes you better?
It doesn't. Do you know that under British enslavement of India, there used to be signs on all major public recreational places that read "Dogs and Indians not allowed"?

That is one example. It is these kinds of actions that bred a lot of distrust and hatred for the white man in countries they used to enslave. That's their legacy...your's are different - these people you kill as collateral damage, to them it's war, it's drone strikes, etc etc. And you need to see that for your own sake.

Just watched this video below, and found it somewhat relevant. To add a bit more context to Islamic ideology that also includes a bit of your own nation's history NeoX regarding the Sikh people of Lahore in time past (around 6m30s in). No doubt, the blame is probably placed on the Sikh people in a largel Islamic dominated Pakistan, just like blame is always put on the Christians, or Buddhists, or Hindus, or Brits, the US, colonisation, this or that.

Let's be clear, a lot of crappy things have been done by Brits, US, Europe, West, Australia, all countries had a lot of bad their hands. Before the last few centuries, it was the East (Muslims) enslaving white Europeans with a slave trade in such of their own. Not to mention the much earlier attacks across Europe. Evidently, that brought a lot of attention to where Muslims disseminated from. Let's never lose context, just because some things in history are buried and become less known, often there are deeper reasons for the way things are and became the way they did.

For everyone's evil, on every side, such doesn't mean the eyesore today that is found in Islamic idealogy is justified or should be ignored, that Manchester is somehow a justified retributive act because of all the evils "the West" have committed in the East, does it? Muslims seem to be the ones who do the most harm, even to others identifying as Muslims.

Nothing could change my mind in believing that Islam is a worse idealogy than Nazism. In fact, it has much in common with such, only I see it is on steroids. It shares the same goals in relation to Jewish people being wiped from the face of the planet, and indeed many Muslims would love that.

Islam is unlike any other religion on the face of the earth for all the wrong reasons.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zExlefrTv4

Very well said K. I am not advocating for Islam or Isis, just pointing out that we should hold into account all who have attributed in the current situation.

[neo-x]

neo wrote/
That is one example. It is these kinds of actions that bred a lot of distrust and hatred for the white man in countries they used to enslave. That's their legacy...your's are different - these people you kill as collateral damage, to them it's war, it's drone strikes, etc etc. And you need to see that for your own sake.

Now I understand. You hate me because I'm white.

I hope you're kidding, Rick.

[neo-x]

I think Philp that the conversation is not being productive at all. I'd refrain from debating this further as it's quite evident to me that its a sensitive topic to you. I see an emotional response with passion getting the upper hand, I mean patronizing me to be embarrassed, calling me clueless etc., and given that it's a disturbing issue I don't blame you, but I don't see where the convo is headed if it's going to go down like this.

[RickD]

neo wrote/
That is one example. It is these kinds of actions that bred a lot of distrust and hatred for the white man in countries they used to enslave. That's their legacy...your's are different - these people you kill as collateral damage, to them it's war, it's drone strikes, etc etc. And you need to see that for your own sake.

Now I understand. You hate me because I'm white.

I hope you're kidding, Rick.

Of course I was kidding. The topic seems to be getting too serious.