The Delusion of "Free Will"

[RickD]

Life is an illusion.

Never mind free will, all you who think you're even having this conversation, are deluded.

[abelcainsbrother]

No,I'm trying to get you to understand that we determine what is true or not based on evidence,but you did'nt get it because you think it is irrelevant to this disscussion,etc. So you overlooked my point.We have all kinds of conspiracy theories and they can sound very convincing the way they are presented,but without evidence? And it is nothing more than an opinion.

I just think you should re-think this theory you've picked up and find evidence to confirm it or not,like I did using Aquinas's four principles. I actually gave evidence for how and why they point to God. So it cannot be "God of the gaps". God of the gaps would be if we did not have evidence and were just filling in the lack of evidence with God,but we are not doing that. It is evidence based,which is why you can't name anything in our world they don't apply to. The four principles are - All things have a cause,and all things that have a cause are caused by something else,all things are willed into existence and there can be no infinite regression.

You seem to know some about philosophy although the not caring about the "why" point is a problem. It is something that most atheists live by and they wait on science to give them an answer some day.Not realizing that modern day science does not ask the "why" either,so that science can never give them an answer and so they will never,ever know or get an answer.It is a state of limbo.

There is no sense in deluding yourself,going through life believing things that sounded good to you but did not have evidence behind it and after you die,you realize you were wrong and made a poor decision that can't be undone because you ignored the truth based on evidence. If you like philosophy why not check out Thomas Aquinas? Because noone has ever refuted him,still to this day,they have only ignored him or didn't know. He is still just as right as back then.

To reformat; your four principles:

.......1) All things have a cause

.......2) All things that have a cause are caused by something else

.......3) All things are willed into existence

.......4) There can be no infinite regression

"1) All things have a cause." True, which would necessarily include god.

" 2) All things that have a cause are caused by something else." This simply doesn't make sense. Consider the example of Thing A. In effect it says A has a cause, which we will call Y, but then you say A isn't caused by Y, but by something else. Does this make sense to you?

"3) All things are willed into existence." Unless you're talking about God willing them into existence this doesn't make any sense---I've never heard of a rock having been willed into existence. And, if you are talking about God willing them into existence then you're first going to have to present convincing evidence this is true, because as it stands I haven't seen any. So as it stands your third principle is moot.

"4) There can be no infinite regression." Agreed, but so what?

They apply to everything in our world. God is outside our world and I made that clear,besides you can't just make up a straw man God that is not eternal,eternal things cannot be caused.

Perhaps #1 should be rephrased to something like "All things that are not eternal have a cause"

K

Yeah ,you're right. For those who don't know our God is eternal.

[Justhuman]

Some really nice interviews can be found here: https://www.closertotruth.com/series/bi ... -free-will
And on other parts of that site.

[Justhuman]

As Bertram Malle on closertotruth stated the term "free will" might be wrong to start with. That free will is almost a contradiction in itself, because it is not the will that is actually free, but it is the action (based on the will) that is free.

[yorican67]

But doesn't the will have to be free in order to chose an action? How can an action possess a mind to make any kind of determination. Maybe I'm missing something here...

[RickD]

But doesn't the will have to be free in order to chose an action? How can an action possess a mind to make any kind of determination. Maybe I'm missing something here...

No, you're not missing anything.

[Philip]

Actions begin in the mind/the Will. ACTIONS flow from and are a result of the will - the mind/brain center that enacts desires.

[yorican67]

Actions begin in the mind/the Will. ACTIONS flow from and are a result of the will - the mind/brain center that enacts desires.

Jesus said its a sin to look upon a women with lust in your heart. This is a result of my mind having the freewill to allow the thought, all this is taking place in my mind. Yeap I'm going to sleep now...

[Justhuman]

If God, in His created theistic universe, knows everything, including the path we each take and in the end who will be saved or condemned, then free will is an illusion, because everything is determined by the way God 'let it flow'. Each of us doesn't have a real choice anymore because we cannot deviate from the path God has designed for us.
And what's the use of free will in this theistic universe? To please God with those who have chosen the right path? But wait, He already knows who did/does that.

In a materialistic universe there is no outside force that defines or limits our actions, just cause and effect. Free will is only bound to our knowledge.

[RickD]

If God, in His created theistic universe, knows everything, including the path we each take and in the end who will be saved or condemned, then free will is an illusion, because everything is determined by the way God 'let it flow'. Each of us doesn't have a real choice anymore because we cannot deviate from the path God has designed for us.
And what's the use of free will in this theistic universe? To please God with those who have chosen the right path? But wait, He already knows who did/does that.

In a materialistic universe there is no outside force that defines or limits our actions, just cause and effect. Free will is only bound to our knowledge.

You'd need to prove that God knowing our choices, equals God making us choose. I could put four glasses in front of my son. One with chocolate milk, one with Coke, one with lemonade, and one with Mountain Dew. I could almost guarantee that I know he will choose chocolate milk. Does that mean I make him choose chocolate milk? Or that his choice is just an illusion?

How much more would an omniscient God know what we would choose?

[Justhuman]

He needs not make us choose, for He knows what we choose. There's no need for Him to make the choice for us when He already knows what we choose. He only could/need have choose for us if He wouldn't know what we would choose.

[thatkidakayoungguy]

That's the paradox, I guess u could say. I've likened creation to a play or movie of sorts, God knows how it will turn out, yet intercedes and allows for the "actors" who are us to change the "script" to a degree yet the overall "plot" or will of God gets done.

[RickD]

I just don't see how it logically follows, that if God knows what we will choose, therefore we really aren't choosing.

That just makes no sense.

[Justhuman]

I just don't see how it logically follows, that if God knows what we will choose, therefore we really aren't choosing.

That just makes no sense.

No, we can choose, but according to Gods plan. The point is that if God knows everything (in advance) He needs not (cannot?) make us choose anything (else), because that would deminish His knowing everything. IF he decided to make us choose something, it would have been predetermined that He did/does that.

[RickD]

I just don't see how it logically follows, that if God knows what we will choose, therefore we really aren't choosing.

That just makes no sense.

No, we can choose, but according to Gods plan. The point is that if God knows everything (in advance) He needs not (cannot?) make us choose anything (else), because that would deminish His knowing everything. IF he decided to make us choose something, it would have been predetermined that He did/does that.

That's not an argument against free will. You do understand that, right?