The Delusion of "Free Will"

[Justhuman]

The eternity that you speak of does not exist

Nevertheless that is what is spoken about.

Spoken about where and by whom?

Well... It's not here that they've used the word 'eternity', that's my interpretion. And I certainly won't point my finger at someone accusing them of this-and-that.

Am I wrong that God's kingdom doesn't last forever? That all the saved souls will 'end' sometime? Truly, truly die?

Eternity exists. But I dont believe your interpretation of it is correct.

How am I then mistaken about eternity? Eternity is forever. It has no end.

[Justhuman]

JustHuman: Am I wrong that God's kingdom doesn't last forever? That all the saved souls will 'end' sometime? Truly, truly die?

Absolutely wrong! ALL people will live forever - those saved via faith in God/Jesus will forever live in Paradise - the (still-to-come) restored/new earth and heaven merged, with Him. The rest, those who will die in permanent rebellion, and forever refuse to believe/have faith/commit to God - they will live forever separated from Him, in varying levels of punishment. It matters not if such people eternally separated followed the wrong God, assert they didn't know, didn't search, didn't care - WHATEVER the reason for their unbelief, ultimately they permanently refuse the have faith in Christ. In fact, it is our promise of ETERNAL life WITH GOD that gives the Christian a hope that transcends all temporary hope in things that can go or be taken away from them - things that can't ultimately satisfy the emptiness of one's spiritual vacuum. NO one's physical death ends them as a person / a living spirit - for the Christian, there will be a new body, a heavenly body that their spirit will take on - as one puts on a coat, their spirit will be encased in a new body. Presently, our bodies are corrupted and decaying, every day closer to the inevitable end of their mortal lives - but that is but the first death, for those unsaved.

But to live/exist like that for all eternity? In punishment or in Paradise. That's a frightening prospect!

[PaulSacramento]

JustHuman: Am I wrong that God's kingdom doesn't last forever? That all the saved souls will 'end' sometime? Truly, truly die?

Absolutely wrong! ALL people will live forever - those saved via faith in God/Jesus will forever live in Paradise - the (still-to-come) restored/new earth and heaven merged, with Him. The rest, those who will die in permanent rebellion, and forever refuse to believe/have faith/commit to God - they will live forever separated from Him, in varying levels of punishment. It matters not if such people eternally separated followed the wrong God, assert they didn't know, didn't search, didn't care - WHATEVER the reason for their unbelief, ultimately they permanently refuse the have faith in Christ. In fact, it is our promise of ETERNAL life WITH GOD that gives the Christian a hope that transcends all temporary hope in things that can go or be taken away from them - things that can't ultimately satisfy the emptiness of one's spiritual vacuum. NO one's physical death ends them as a person / a living spirit - for the Christian, there will be a new body, a heavenly body that their spirit will take on - as one puts on a coat, their spirit will be encased in a new body. Presently, our bodies are corrupted and decaying, every day closer to the inevitable end of their mortal lives - but that is but the first death, for those unsaved.

But to live/exist like that for all eternity? In punishment or in Paradise. That's a frightening prospect!

Not sure what you mean.
The punishment thing, yer of course BUT people are there of their own choice so...
But paradise being frightening?
First thing is to remember that we will not be human anymore and as such, our very limited understanding ( that we have now) will become "enlightened", we will be as close to "divine" as possible.
In short, our concept of existence right now is very, very limited ( comparable to an insect compared to us for example) BUT it will be complete when we are resurrected and as such, on a whole different level.

[Justhuman]

JustHuman: Am I wrong that God's kingdom doesn't last forever? That all the saved souls will 'end' sometime? Truly, truly die?

Absolutely wrong! ALL people will live forever - those saved via faith in God/Jesus will forever live in Paradise - the (still-to-come) restored/new earth and heaven merged, with Him. The rest, those who will die in permanent rebellion, and forever refuse to believe/have faith/commit to God - they will live forever separated from Him, in varying levels of punishment. It matters not if such people eternally separated followed the wrong God, assert they didn't know, didn't search, didn't care - WHATEVER the reason for their unbelief, ultimately they permanently refuse the have faith in Christ. In fact, it is our promise of ETERNAL life WITH GOD that gives the Christian a hope that transcends all temporary hope in things that can go or be taken away from them - things that can't ultimately satisfy the emptiness of one's spiritual vacuum. NO one's physical death ends them as a person / a living spirit - for the Christian, there will be a new body, a heavenly body that their spirit will take on - as one puts on a coat, their spirit will be encased in a new body. Presently, our bodies are corrupted and decaying, every day closer to the inevitable end of their mortal lives - but that is but the first death, for those unsaved.

But to live/exist like that for all eternity? In punishment or in Paradise. That's a frightening prospect!

Not sure what you mean.
The punishment thing, yer of course BUT people are there of their own choice so...
But paradise being frightening?
First thing is to remember that we will not be human anymore and as such, our very limited understanding ( that we have now) will become "enlightened", we will be as close to "divine" as possible.
In short, our concept of existence right now is very, very limited ( comparable to an insect compared to us for example) BUT it will be complete when we are resurrected and as such, on a whole different level.

I mean, 'me' is who I am. If I change into something else, it's not me anymore. What responsibilty will that 'new me' have towards it's 'old me', regarding that previous life?
It's like a fresh start in a new existence, the old one discarded and forgotten.

An eternity in paradise as... what? What remains of us when we are enlightened? Are 'you' still 'you', or have you become something completely different, like a butterfly from caterpillar?
And why do only 'good' people get that enlightening? It is the 'bad' people that need it most.
Besides that, what are billions of close-to-devine enlightened beings going to do in all that eternity? Eternity isn't a few years, a couple of million years, or even billion of years.

[PaulSacramento]

I mean, 'me' is who I am. If I change into something else, it's not me anymore. What responsibilty will that 'new me' have towards it's 'old me', regarding that previous life?
It's like a fresh start in a new existence, the old one discarded and forgotten.

An eternity in paradise as... what? What remains of us when we are enlightened? Are 'you' still 'you', or have you become something completely different, like a butterfly from caterpillar?
And why do only 'good' people get that enlightening? It is the 'bad' people that need it most.
Besides that, what are billions of close-to-devine enlightened beings going to do in all that eternity? Eternity isn't a few years, a couple of million years, or even billion of years.

Good questions.
Metaphysics answered these very easily of course BUT if you have a materialistic view of the world, then you have these issues.

[Nicki]

I mean, 'me' is who I am. If I change into something else, it's not me anymore. What responsibilty will that 'new me' have towards it's 'old me', regarding that previous life?
It's like a fresh start in a new existence, the old one discarded and forgotten.

An eternity in paradise as... what? What remains of us when we are enlightened? Are 'you' still 'you', or have you become something completely different, like a butterfly from caterpillar?
And why do only 'good' people get that enlightening? It is the 'bad' people that need it most.
Besides that, what are billions of close-to-devine enlightened beings going to do in all that eternity? Eternity isn't a few years, a couple of million years, or even billion of years.

Remember, it's not being good that qualifies people for eternal life - it's trusting in Jesus Christ. Other people undoubtedly could do with being enlightened, but they have rejected the whole thing. PaulS put it very well in his thoughts on eternity but I'll add that I've always thought of heaven as being wonderful far beyond what we can imagine in this life. The Bible speaks of streets of gold in the New Jerusalem - if there are streets there must be places to go and things to do, probably beyond our comprehension for now.

[Justhuman]

I mean, 'me' is who I am. If I change into something else, it's not me anymore. What responsibilty will that 'new me' have towards it's 'old me', regarding that previous life?
It's like a fresh start in a new existence, the old one discarded and forgotten.

An eternity in paradise as... what? What remains of us when we are enlightened? Are 'you' still 'you', or have you become something completely different, like a butterfly from caterpillar?
And why do only 'good' people get that enlightening? It is the 'bad' people that need it most.
Besides that, what are billions of close-to-devine enlightened beings going to do in all that eternity? Eternity isn't a few years, a couple of million years, or even billion of years.

Remember, it's not being good that qualifies people for eternal life - it's trusting in Jesus Christ. Other people undoubtedly could do with being enlightened, but they have rejected the whole thing. PaulS put it very well in his thoughts on eternity but I'll add that I've always thought of heaven as being wonderful far beyond what we can imagine in this life. The Bible speaks of streets of gold in the New Jerusalem - if there are streets there must be places to go and things to do, probably beyond our comprehension for now.

No, I don't think trusting in Jesus, or in God, is THE only way into heaven. It might be living like the way He taught, or living like the idea behind His way, and maybe that includes trusting too.

And gold is a physical material, that does not exist in a metaphysical world. Have you ever thought of that?

[PaulSacramento]

I mean, 'me' is who I am. If I change into something else, it's not me anymore. What responsibilty will that 'new me' have towards it's 'old me', regarding that previous life?
It's like a fresh start in a new existence, the old one discarded and forgotten.

An eternity in paradise as... what? What remains of us when we are enlightened? Are 'you' still 'you', or have you become something completely different, like a butterfly from caterpillar?
And why do only 'good' people get that enlightening? It is the 'bad' people that need it most.
Besides that, what are billions of close-to-devine enlightened beings going to do in all that eternity? Eternity isn't a few years, a couple of million years, or even billion of years.

Remember, it's not being good that qualifies people for eternal life - it's trusting in Jesus Christ. Other people undoubtedly could do with being enlightened, but they have rejected the whole thing. PaulS put it very well in his thoughts on eternity but I'll add that I've always thought of heaven as being wonderful far beyond what we can imagine in this life. The Bible speaks of streets of gold in the New Jerusalem - if there are streets there must be places to go and things to do, probably beyond our comprehension for now.

No, I don't think trusting in Jesus, or in God, is THE only way into heaven. It might be living like the way He taught, or living like the idea behind His way, and maybe that includes trusting too.

And gold is a physical material, that does not exist in a metaphysical world. Have you ever thought of that?

Salvation can only come from trusting and believing in Jesus.
Salvation can NOT come from anything else.

Now, the thing is, WHAT are we being saved from?
Some say hell and they are right, to a degree.

The GOJ explain to us that belief in Jesus saves us from JUDGMENT ( which saves us from damnation of course).
What happens to those that do not believe?
They are Judged based on their works and worth ( intent behind their works).
Now, considering that NONE are good, what do you think that means to those that trust in THEMSELVES and what they do as opposed to trusting in CHRIST and what HE DOES.

[Philip]

JustHuman: If I change into something else, it's not me anymore. What responsibilty will that 'new me' have towards it's 'old me', regarding that previous life?

I mean, 'me' is who I am.

Of course, ALL who are given an identity and a personage to be born into are both created unique, and will be so eternally. As the rewards (Heaven) and punishments (Hell) of eternity are determined by how we respond to God on earth (whether to Believe and commit to Him, or whether to only forever resist Him), then neither punishment or reward would make sense if such things were applied to a person who becomes (in eternity) someone different from their earthly identity, upon whose actions/responses to God result in whatever rewards or punishments are dished out.

As for the present earth, there is no person identical to any other – now or after death. The Bible teaches that people will remain themselves – they'll just not remain in their old bodies (after death). Jesus referenced those who died believing in God by their specific names – including Abraham, Issac, and Jacob (Matthew 8:11). On the Mount of Transfiguration, in Matthew 17, Moses and Elijah appear before Jesus and Peter – and they had long been physically dead, and yet they were referenced by their names, and Jesus spoke to them. In Matthew 18, at the Great Banquet in Heaven, again, there Abraham and Issac are referenced being there. And do disembodied spirits eat and drink at a banquet???!!!

Heaven is described repeatedly as a physical place, but not as per the present physical realm in which people and things decay and are corrupted (due to sin). When the Apostle John describes the New Jerusalem coming down out of the present Heaven, merging with the New Earth (which is what Heaven will then be), what he details were things that he actually SAW – replete with considerable detail as to their descriptions, and his description of physical activities. ALL believer in Heaven will also receive additional and NEW names (Isaiah 62:2, 65:15, Revelation 2:17, 3:12). The Bible describes NATIONS being in Heaven.

In Heaven, those there will still be themselves, but gloriously transformed, with no further pain, suffering, death, or any further sinful, evil desires – so, people will STILL be humans – albeit saved ones with new and uncorrupted bodies with abilities beyond what we can currently imagine – these are described across Scripture. There will be nations and leaders in Heaven. With the New Jerusalem at its center. JESUS was physically resurrected, and the angels told those watching Him disappear into the clouds that, He “will come again, in the same way as you saw him go into heaven” - meaning, He will, one day, PHYSICALLY return.

Jesus is now FOREVER and ALSO a man – while He's forever been God! Scripture says He is a high priest FOREVER:

"where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek." (Heb. 6:20).

"Hence, also, He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them." (Heb. 7:25).
More on Jesus' eternal HUMANITY, here: https://carm.org/jesus-is-a-man

JustHuman: An eternity in paradise as... what? What remains of us when we are enlightened? Are 'you' still 'you', or have you become something completely different, like a butterfly from caterpillar?
And why do only 'good' people get that enlightening? It is the 'bad' people that need it most.
Besides that, what are billions of close-to-devine enlightened beings going to do in all that eternity? Eternity isn't a few years, a couple of million years, or even billion of years.

God is unlimited in what He will provide those in Heaven – with constant new and amazing things to discover, created, pursue, new joys – God never quits creating and He offers those in eternity with Him unlimited possibilities – except He has the power to make all things possible, an actuality. But even in Heaven, the greatest joy by far will be the presence of the Lord Himself. We can't imagine that – as we are currently all sinful men, still in fleshly corruption. Think of the most amazing, beautiful and incredible experiences any man can have on earth – it will pale in comparison to the experiences of those living with the Lord in His Heaven! Such is the hope and destiny of ALL who will love the Father/Son/Spirit: GOD!

[Nicki]

And gold is a physical material, that does not exist in a metaphysical world. Have you ever thought of that?

The Bible indicates we will have real but glorified bodies after the resurrection (like Jesus' risen body - he could be touched and could eat but could also appear and disappear and move into locked rooms). So glorified gold, perhaps? The book of Revelation also says the whole city of New Jerusalem (part of the new heavens and new earth) will be made of pure gold and the wall of jasper, with the foundations decorated with many other precious stones. What form these will be in it's hard to know, but God is certainly not constrained by our ideas of physical and metaphysical.

[Justhuman]

And gold is a physical material, that does not exist in a metaphysical world. Have you ever thought of that?

The Bible indicates we will have real but glorified bodies after the resurrection (like Jesus' risen body - he could be touched and could eat but could also appear and disappear and move into locked rooms). So glorified gold, perhaps? The book of Revelation also says the whole city of New Jerusalem (part of the new heavens and new earth) will be made of pure gold and the wall of jasper, with the foundations decorated with many other precious stones. What form these will be in it's hard to know, but God is certainly not constrained by our ideas of physical and metaphysical.

An enlightened being doesn't need nor wants to glorify gold.

Revelation also says the whole city of New Jerusalem (part of the new heavens and new earth) will be made of pure gold and the wall of jasper, with the foundations decorated with many other precious stones.

This reference to gold and jasper is based on our human (destructive?) adoration of gold. In a metaphysical world it probably wouldn't have any meaning at all.

[Kurieuo]

No, I don't think trusting in Jesus, or in God, is THE only way into heaven. It might be living like the way He taught, or living like the idea behind His way, and maybe that includes trusting too.

And gold is a physical material, that does not exist in a metaphysical world. Have you ever thought of that?

You don't think God exists fullstop. So your statements here puzzle me re: an afterlife, heaven, etc...

Understand though, if God exists, the spiritual came first, then the physical material world is of second-order, modelled upon the spiritual. How much and how far physical things are representative of something spiritual is anyones guess. I kind of think such is next to limitless. Hence Buddhists can even seek/find some spiritual significance in just looking at a rock or structure, perhaps even uncover spiritual wisdom. Evidently, the author of Revelation, a book rich in symbolic meaning, intended to use precious stones and the like as symbolic descriptors of spiritual matters.

• The New Jerusalem
  
  10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper. 12It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. 13There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west. 14And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
  
  15The one who spoke with me had a gold measuring rod to measure the city, and its gates and its wall. 16The city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as the width; and he measured the city with the rod, fifteen hundred miles; its length and width and height are equal. 17And he measured its wall, seventy-two yards, according to human measurements, which are also angelic measurements. 18The material of the wall was jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass. 19The foundation stones of the city wall were adorned with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation stone was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald; 20the fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprase; the eleventh, jacinth; the twelfth, amethyst. 21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each one of the gates was a single pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.
  
  22I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. 25In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; 26and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

[Justhuman]

No, I don't think trusting in Jesus, or in God, is THE only way into heaven. It might be living like the way He taught, or living like the idea behind His way, and maybe that includes trusting too.

And gold is a physical material, that does not exist in a metaphysical world. Have you ever thought of that?

You don't think God exists fullstop. So your statements here puzzle me re: an afterlife, heaven, etc...

Well, it probably won't work, but I'm trying to rationalyze from a realistic point of view how things could work if God and His theistic universe would be true. Some things talked about here seem to me outdated, even unrealistic. At some points religion and it's science try to hold on and even change to new scientific insights, but at other points of view there is a stubborn unwilling unchanging hang to the Literally One And Only Truth Of The Bible. Whether it's realistic realistic doesn't matter. How it is written there, is and shall be the truth. Stop.

You know, I can go along with many points with a theistic universe, understand it's reasoning, even though I do not believe in that, but cannot accept some things that seems illogical to me.

[Philip]

JustHuman: Well, it probably won't work, but I'm trying to rationalyze from a realistic point of view how things could work if God and His theistic universe would be true. Some things talked about here seem to me outdated, even unrealistic. At some points religion and it's science try to hold on and even change to new scientific insights, but at other points of view there is a stubborn unwilling unchanging hang to the Literally One And Only Truth Of The Bible. Whether it's realistic realistic doesn't matter. How it is written there, is and shall be the truth. Stop.

First of all, it there is a God as described by the Bible, then then strange and seemingly impossible could exist. What is asserted in the Bible is consistent. Whether it is true or not, one needs to take a deep and open-minded look at it. Look at it's prophecies - just the one concerning Israel, alone, are astounding and have come true. About Jesus. Historical things that can be checked against the prophecies. Such a series of lucky guesses - impossible. Do you realize that the very fact that any one person could fulfill all of the necessary predictions concerning the Messiah is, in and of itself, extraordinary? And that is before we get to the part as to how He changed history, of how His teachings changed the Roman empire. Of how vast million of logical, educate sober-minded people across the world have come to believe He is God - astounding. A ragtag band of Jewish fisherman, and poor men, change the world forever. They had the Roman Empire against them, the governor has their leader killed - would have been the end of the story, unless there was something FAR more remarkable going on. Do you realize that Jesus' physical death was prophesied, far before? And that's just prophecy.

JustHuman: You know, I can go along with many points with a theistic universe, understand it's reasoning, even though I do not believe in that, but cannot accept some things that seems illogical to me.

JH, you've already conceded that SOMETHING preceded the physical universe. Do you not also realize that "something" also had to be eternal? It couldn't created itself, it had to be self-existing /eternal! The Big Bang event alone shows that something non-physical (nothing yet physically existed), INSTANTLY caused the building blocks, physics and chemistries of all things that our universe became, whereas moments before, there was nothing at all physically existing. What did those things IMMEDIATELY show, within moments of the Big Bang's beginning? Extraordinary power, things of incredible design, programmed with specific functionality, that perfectly interacted with other such things. And it wasn't RANDOM things that showed up, but PRECISELY what our universe required to exist and function, and to one day allow life to exist. And they show up immediately obeying laws with highly specific parameters. None of these things developed slowly - not the building blocks, their designs - as they showed an immediate functionality. These things show that the Source of all things was awesomely powerful and intelligent beyond our understandings. All of that is to contemplate before one even begins to search for the identity of that eternal, awesomely powerful and intelligent Source!

That there is only ONE creature on the planet, built with man's mental capacity, psychological self-awareness, such extraordinary mental and creative abilities, for which relationships and the need to love and be loved, that communicating and collaborating with others of our species is unparalleled by any other - these all suggest that we were created by the Source of the universe to love and communicate. WE/man are at the pinnacle of the Source's Creation. Would not communication and love be important to the Source - per how only one creature has our attributes? So, what are the options, or rather, claims, for the Source? Which one seems credible? Which one has traceable historic and prophetic evidences? ONE: Christianity. As for rationally trying to figure out a Being who is so vastly more intelligent that we are - not to mention ALL-knowing (NO past, present or future things He doesn't know about), is unlimited in capabilities - assertions by humans that such a Being would only logically operate like this or that - how arrogant can we be? Like a bug telling a man how to think - except the abilities and knowledge gap between the most intelligent man and God is unfathomably greater. Using human logic to figure out such a Being as God is rather silly.

[Justhuman]

... Using human logic to figure out such a Being as God is rather silly.

Why?