The Delusion of "Free Will"

[Kurieuo]

No, I don't think trusting in Jesus, or in God, is THE only way into heaven. It might be living like the way He taught, or living like the idea behind His way, and maybe that includes trusting too.

And gold is a physical material, that does not exist in a metaphysical world. Have you ever thought of that?

You don't think God exists fullstop. So your statements here puzzle me re: an afterlife, heaven, etc...

Well, it probably won't work, but I'm trying to rationalyze from a realistic point of view how things could work if God and His theistic universe would be true. Some things talked about here seem to me outdated, even unrealistic. At some points religion and it's science try to hold on and even change to new scientific insights, but at other points of view there is a stubborn unwilling unchanging hang to the Literally One And Only Truth Of The Bible. Whether it's realistic realistic doesn't matter. How it is written there, is and shall be the truth. Stop.

You know, I can go along with many points with a theistic universe, understand it's reasoning, even though I do not believe in that, but cannot accept some things that seems illogical to me.

If there is one book I'd recommend to you, one that can be easily found online even, it'd be Mere Christianity. I'd recommend to you starting with CS Lewis if you're after a logical and coherent thinking through about God, and even Christianity. Discussions with people of all sorts, even a board like this where many of us often agree with main truths, will nonetheless give you very scattered thinking and appear all over the place. Start with one respectable source, and just read what insights and glean the nuggets they have to offer.

[PaulSacramento]

... Using human logic to figure out such a Being as God is rather silly.

Why?

Human logic can help us to understand about God but not God.
Can an ant understand a human?
Can an amoeba comprehend the universe?

IF God exists ( and if you understand classic/real theism then you understand why He MUST) then such "a being" ( I say a being because He is not A being but IS being) is so far and above beyond our ability to comprehend FULLY that the best we can do is to try and understand SOME.

[Philip]

Paul: IF God exists ( and if you understand classic/real theism then you understand why He MUST) then such "a being" ( I say a being because He is not A being but IS being) is so far and above beyond our ability to comprehend FULLY that the best we can do is to try and understand SOME.

Yes, Paul above explains what I mean by using human logic to understand God is pointless - it's an exaggeration based upon a given truth - that there is an enormous gap between man's abilities to understand, the limitations of our knowledge, as compared to God's ALL-knowing and perfect knowledge of all things. Of course, we CAN use our logic to understand what God says about Himself - all of the understandings of God, conveyed through the prophets and apostles in Scripture are aimed at what our human abilities CAN understand. But those descriptions and understandings include many assertions of their being this vast gulf of intelligence and knowledge between us:

Isaiah 55:8-9: "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the Lord. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your way and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Romans 11: “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord?"

God does not think like a man. What God-fearing man would think a plan that allows and utilizes the evil of others would be a good, logical one? NO one! But God doesn't think like us - AND He has the ability to produce His desired outcomes, and always know about the end results - meaning there would never be a moment that God hasn't known every detail and process involved, as well as their resulting future outcome. Look at Joseph's comments upon the horrible treatment by his own brothers: "“As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good.”

When contemplating God and His ways, man necessarily has serious limitations as to what can be known or understood. A huge part of realizing this has to do with knowing what Scripture says about God, His Holy Character, power and omniscience.

[PaulSacramento]

Indeed Philip.
I think that it needs to be made clear that God has given us enough to KNOW Him if we CHOOSE to and that He gives those that can handle more, more.
It is funny that we think we could possibly understand God when even the brightest of us realize how little we still know about the universe and even ourselves !

[Justhuman]

Neither an amoeba nor an ant are unique in their fellow microbial or insect habitat. Even animals aren't unique, for most just run on instinct. Man is neither an ant, nor an amoeba, nor an animal. Mankind is unique for it's imagination, it's capability for reasoning in cause and effect, and beyond.

To limit ourselves beforehand we cannot understand 'something' is to erect a self created barrier. It blocks our free will to think. It is like teaching ourselves it is impossible because... well, it's just not possible. A vicious circle.

The limits are those things we do not yet know, because they are unknown. Not because we cannot understand them.

To state we cannot understand God, we would first have to know God. And we don't.

On the other hand it would be bold for me to state our understanding is limitless. There are always limits. I just don 't know where it stops.

[PaulSacramento]

Neither an amoeba nor an ant are unique in their fellow microbial or insect habitat. Even animals aren't unique, for most just run on instinct. Man is neither an ant, nor an amoeba, nor an animal. Mankind is unique for it's imagination, it's capability for reasoning in cause and effect, and beyond.

To limit ourselves beforehand we cannot understand 'something' is to erect a self created barrier. It blocks our free will to think. It is like teaching ourselves it is impossible because... well, it's just not possible. A vicious circle.

The limits are those things we do not yet know, because they are unknown. Not because we cannot understand them.

To state we cannot understand God, we would first have to know God. And we don't.

On the other hand it would be bold for me to state our understanding is limitless. There are always limits. I just don 't know where it stops.

No one is saying you can't understand God AT ALL, just not fully.

Do you understand ALL of quantum physics?
Would the smartest of scientists from the 18th century understand ALL of a cell phone?

[Justhuman]

Neither an amoeba nor an ant are unique in their fellow microbial or insect habitat. Even animals aren't unique, for most just run on instinct. Man is neither an ant, nor an amoeba, nor an animal. Mankind is unique for it's imagination, it's capability for reasoning in cause and effect, and beyond.

To limit ourselves beforehand we cannot understand 'something' is to erect a self created barrier. It blocks our free will to think. It is like teaching ourselves it is impossible because... well, it's just not possible. A vicious circle.

The limits are those things we do not yet know, because they are unknown. Not because we cannot understand them.

To state we cannot understand God, we would first have to know God. And we don't.

On the other hand it would be bold for me to state our understanding is limitless. There are always limits. I just don 't know where it stops.

No one is saying you can't understand God AT ALL, just not fully.

Do you understand ALL of quantum physics?
Would the smartest of scientists from the 18th century understand ALL of a cell phone?

Well, if you mean ALL, then no, of course I cannot know all. But your ALL is a bit of a mean statement, because it is impossible to know all. Maybe even for God.

[PaulSacramento]

Neither an amoeba nor an ant are unique in their fellow microbial or insect habitat. Even animals aren't unique, for most just run on instinct. Man is neither an ant, nor an amoeba, nor an animal. Mankind is unique for it's imagination, it's capability for reasoning in cause and effect, and beyond.

To limit ourselves beforehand we cannot understand 'something' is to erect a self created barrier. It blocks our free will to think. It is like teaching ourselves it is impossible because... well, it's just not possible. A vicious circle.

The limits are those things we do not yet know, because they are unknown. Not because we cannot understand them.

To state we cannot understand God, we would first have to know God. And we don't.

On the other hand it would be bold for me to state our understanding is limitless. There are always limits. I just don 't know where it stops.

No one is saying you can't understand God AT ALL, just not fully.

Do you understand ALL of quantum physics?
Would the smartest of scientists from the 18th century understand ALL of a cell phone?

Well, if you mean ALL, then no, of course I cannot know all. But your ALL is a bit of a mean statement, because it is impossible to know all. Maybe even for God.

Seems to me that you need to brush up on some classical theism because you make statements ( like it may be impossible for God to know all) that show that you are not very familiar at all with what/who God is.

God, by the very definition of being God, knows ALL or else He would NOT be God.

[Justhuman]

Neither an amoeba nor an ant are unique in their fellow microbial or insect habitat. Even animals aren't unique, for most just run on instinct. Man is neither an ant, nor an amoeba, nor an animal. Mankind is unique for it's imagination, it's capability for reasoning in cause and effect, and beyond.

To limit ourselves beforehand we cannot understand 'something' is to erect a self created barrier. It blocks our free will to think. It is like teaching ourselves it is impossible because... well, it's just not possible. A vicious circle.

The limits are those things we do not yet know, because they are unknown. Not because we cannot understand them.

To state we cannot understand God, we would first have to know God. And we don't.

On the other hand it would be bold for me to state our understanding is limitless. There are always limits. I just don 't know where it stops.

No one is saying you can't understand God AT ALL, just not fully.

Do you understand ALL of quantum physics?
Would the smartest of scientists from the 18th century understand ALL of a cell phone?

Well, if you mean ALL, then no, of course I cannot know all. But your ALL is a bit of a mean statement, because it is impossible to know all. Maybe even for God.

Seems to me that you need to brush up on some classical theism because you make statements ( like it may be impossible for God to know all) that show that you are not very familiar at all with what/who God is.

God, by the very definition of being God, knows ALL or else He would NOT be God.

That is a self justifying statement. Unprovable, unverifiable. Only acceptable.

I know how theists see God, but that doesn't mean I have too agree with it. Some things I can accept, other things not. Like the Knowing.

To state that God knows all one should know IF He knows all. For maybe, on His level of existence, there might be unknown things for Him too. Things that even He might still learn.

Where does knowledge end? Does it end? Thats why I stated that it is even for God imposible to know all.

[Philip]

JustHuman: I know how theists see God, but that doesn't mean I have too agree with it. Some things I can accept, other things not. Like the Knowing.

The reality of the matter - whether there is a God of the Bible - does not depend upon one's opinions. If He exists as Scripture tells us, then the reality makes one's opinions worthless.

JustHuman: To state that God knows all one should know IF He knows all. For maybe, on His level of existence, there might be unknown things for Him too. Things that even He might still learn.

If this is the God of the Bible you're speaking of - again, you should familiarize yourself with key, specific FULFILLED prophecies - they show God does know the future. Yes, this is mind-blowing - but so is His Creation and how it arrived!

[Justhuman]

God knows the future of... us. But does He also know His own future?

[PaulSacramento]

That is a self justifying statement. Unprovable, unverifiable. Only acceptable.

See, that is your problem right there.
You decided to define God YOUR way and that doesn't work.
To discuss the classical theist God, the God of Israel and Christianity, you MUST discuss God AS defined by Theism.
God is, not by mine or your definition, GOD and that means He MUST have the attributes of God ( like a human has the attributes of being human).
Saying a human is rational is stating an attribute of what it is to be human, like a triangle having 3 sides.
You statement that it is unprofitable is a MATERIALISTIC statement and not one based on reason and deduction.
You might as well state that consciousness is unprovable.

[Byblos]

God knows the future of... us. But does He also know His own future?

Did you think of that question all on your own or did you borrow it from a less fortunate fella? Do tell, what do you exactly mean when you reference the "future" of an eternal IS?

[Justhuman]

That is a self justifying statement. Unprovable, unverifiable. Only acceptable.

See, that is your problem right there.
You decided to define God YOUR way and that doesn't work.
To discuss the classical theist God, the God of Israel and Christianity, you MUST discuss God AS defined by Theism.
God is, not by mine or your definition, GOD and that means He MUST have the attributes of God ( like a human has the attributes of being human).
Saying a human is rational is stating an attribute of what it is to be human, like a triangle having 3 sides.
You statement that it is unprofitable is a MATERIALISTIC statement and not one based on reason and deduction.
You might as well state that consciousness is unprovable.

See, that is your problem right there.

I have no problem. What use would be my writings here if I complete and utterly agree with you.

You decided to define God YOUR way and that doesn't work.

I do not define anything. I only question some of characteristics and properties of God.

God is, not by mine or your definition, GOD and that means He MUST have the attributes of God ( like a human has the attributes of being human).

That is a rather static way of approach. He is once (a long time ago) defined like 'this', and forever He shall be like 'this'. New insights or not, God is unchangeable (or at least to christian theists).

You statement that it is unprofitable is a MATERIALISTIC statement and not one based on reason and deduction.

Can you then theistically PROOF any of God's characteristics?

[Justhuman]

God knows the future of... us. But does He also know His own future?

Did you think of that question all on your own or did you borrow it from a less fortunate fella? Do tell, what do you exactly mean when you reference the "future" of an eternal IS?

Whom would I have borrowed it from?

Also for an eternal being there is a passing of 'time', or 'events', or whatever they call it. God created our world (universe?) in six days, that means a sequential progress. However long one of those days may be. So, I conclude that God did one after the other. He might have foreseen everything happening in our universe, but does He foresee also everything in His eternal realm?