The Delusion of "Free Will"

[Byblos]

God knows the future of... us. But does He also know His own future?

Did you think of that question all on your own or did you borrow it from a less fortunate fella? Do tell, what do you exactly mean when you reference the "future" of an eternal IS?

Whom would I have borrowed it from?

Also for an eternal being there is a passing of 'time', or 'events', or whatever they call it. God created our world (universe?) in six days, that means a sequential progress. However long one of those days may be. So, I conclude that God did one after the other. He might have foreseen everything happening in our universe, but does He foresee also everything in His eternal realm?

For God to create space and time, by definition he must be outside of space and outside of time. Therefore, He just IS.

Can you then theistically PROOF any of God's characteristics?

Since you're asking for proof I'm assuming you mean metaphysically, not theistically. And the answer is yes.

[Justhuman]

God knows the future of... us. But does He also know His own future?

Did you think of that question all on your own or did you borrow it from a less fortunate fella? Do tell, what do you exactly mean when you reference the "future" of an eternal IS?

Whom would I have borrowed it from?

Also for an eternal being there is a passing of 'time', or 'events', or whatever they call it. God created our world (universe?) in six days, that means a sequential progress. However long one of those days may be. So, I conclude that God did one after the other. He might have foreseen everything happening in our universe, but does He foresee also everything in His eternal realm?

For God to create space and time, by definition he must be outside of space and outside of time. Therefore, He just IS.

Can you then theistically PROOF any of God's characteristics?

Since you're asking for proof I'm assuming you mean metaphysically, not theistically. And the answer is yes.

For God to create space and time, by definition he must be outside of space and outside of time. Therefore, He just IS.

Yes yes, 'He just is' and 'outside space and time' are the easy answers (btw, 'space' and 'time' are the same).
So God is static, living in one moment? He doesn't know/have any kind of 'future'?

... And the answer is yes.

And the proof is...? (I meant theisticly)

[Philip]

JustHuman:

Also for an eternal being there is a passing of 'time', or 'events', or whatever they call it. God created our world (universe?) in six days, that means a sequential progress. However long one of those days may be. So, I conclude that God did one after the other. He might have foreseen everything happening in our universe, but does He foresee also everything in His eternal realm?

Speculate as you will per your own personal construct of God. But there is NO debate of what the Bible teaches of the Christian God: He is ALL knowing! And all means ALL! His knowledge encompasses perfect understandings of all events and actions, past, present and future. That includes, EVERY future action, thought or decision He will ever make, He fully knows everything about them - in fact, there never has been a moment in which He did not know about them. Of course, this seems incomprehensible for finite beings of such limited knowledge to fathom. So, the questions should be: A) Does the God of the Bible exist? B) Is He as is described in Scripture? C) What possible evidences are there for the first two questions.

[Justhuman]

JustHuman:

Also for an eternal being there is a passing of 'time', or 'events', or whatever they call it. God created our world (universe?) in six days, that means a sequential progress. However long one of those days may be. So, I conclude that God did one after the other. He might have foreseen everything happening in our universe, but does He foresee also everything in His eternal realm?

Speculate as you will per your own personal construct of God. But there is NO debate of what the Bible teaches of the Christian God: He is ALL knowing! And all means ALL! His knowledge encompasses perfect understandings of all events and actions, past, present and future. That includes, EVERY future action, thought or decision He will ever make, He fully knows everything about them - in fact, there never has been a moment in which He did not know about them. Of course, this seems incomprehensible for finite beings of such limited knowledge to fathom. So, the questions should be: A) Does the God of the Bible exist? B) Is He as is described in Scripture? C) What possible evidences are there for the first two questions.

Does the Bible realy state that God knows His own 'future'?
That is not so much as incomprehensable, as it is absurd. If He knows eveything that was and ever will be, including Himself, what's the point in doing something? That leaves Him no choice in His actions, because He already knows what choice He ever will make. He would be a slave to His own all-knowing being.

[Philip]

JustHuman: Does the Bible realy state that God knows His own 'future'?

God's own future would include ANY future thing HE ever does or says - this is why prophecies like those in Revelation are known to us - because GOD knows it. This is summed up in one of the names of God: "The Great I Am" - He is simply IS all that He is. If God could gain in knowledge, that would mean A) He couldn't perfectly know the future, and it means He would change and become more knowledgeable as time and events go by. But He never was nor will ever be any less or more knowledgeable.

JustHuman: That is not so much as incomprehensable, as it is absurd. If He knows eveything that was and ever will be, including Himself, what's the point in doing something?

For God, ALL things are in the moment - He sees ALL things ALL at once. There is not buildup, anticipation, emotional or intellectual payoff that He hasn't always had. He does not live in time like we do. This is why you can't understand it.

JustHuman: That leaves Him no choice in His actions, because He already knows what choice He ever will make. He would be a slave to His own all-knowing being.

As well, there is NO before and after to God's decisions - His decisions include and come from WHO and WHAT He is - and thus His judgments and actions are perfect. There is not regret or "slavery" - yours are human concepts based upon finite creatures. Perfect means PERFECT. God does not make mistakes. He does not need to learn from experience - His experiences is all things, ALL at once. Your statement insinuates that God could eventually wish He'd done something differently, even though He'd known of His actions for eternity past.

[Justhuman]

But, does the bible specifically state God knows also His future?
Where do you get that knowledge from?

There is a difference for God knowing all thats going on in our human world (including it's future) and what's going on in His realm. How can we, with our finite understanding, know anything for sure about God's realm?

[PaulSacramento]

Can you then theistically PROOF any of God's characteristics?

That is a question asked by a person with no concept of what God MUST be.

Look, forget your idea of God for a moment, He is not some uber-powerful being with a white beard floating around in the cosmos on a throne.

Try to grasp this:
God doesn't exist, He IS existence.
This is not an opinion but a pure statement of deductive reasoning.
As creator and sustainer ( The Uncaused cause of all that is caused and the unmoved mover of all that moves/changes) of all the exists, God MUST be the following:
All Powerful ( because He is pure actuality)
All Knowing ( Because He is not bound by "time" He knows all -past, present and future)
All loving ( There can be no hate in God because that would make Him lacking someting, ie: love, so He can't be God)
All present ( because He is the Uncaused first cause and the unmoved mover He must be everywhere at every time).

These are things that God MUST be if He is God and He is God because there is existence.

[Justhuman]

I know (more or less) the definition of God, 'I grasp that'. Kurieo wrote some very enlightening posts about that.
To accept 'your' God is accepting it with a BIG leap of faith. There is no science involved in that leap. Just the concept of God. Whether it's logical, whether it makes sense, that all seem to not matter. And I will not accept explanations like 'beyond our understanding' or 'it's to incomprehensible for our human minds'. Even besides our limit in understanding, we also have our imagination, which can transcend understanding.

[PaulSacramento]

If you understood what I wrote you would realize that Faith has nothing to do with it and that science proves it.
Without it, science would not work at all.

[Byblos]

I know (more or less) the definition of God, 'I grasp that'. Kurieo wrote some very enlightening posts about that.
To accept 'your' God is accepting it with a BIG leap of faith. There is no science involved in that leap. Just the concept of God. Whether it's logical, whether it makes sense, that all seem to not matter. And I will not accept explanations like 'beyond our understanding' or 'it's to incomprehensible for our human minds'. Even besides our limit in understanding, we also have our imagination, which can transcend understanding.

Dear Lord man (or woman, sorry, I don't know your gender) you are all over the place. So which one do you want, logic, science, or faith? If you're looking for a proof, then you'd better steer clear of science since science is not in the business of proving anything, but in the business of providing evidence. There are plenty of evidence-based (scientific that is) material we can quote in support of the existence of God but they would be just that, evidence, not proof. If proof you're looking for then it MUST be the metaphysical kind, and that, my dear friend, is nothing but logic. Nowhere you will find in those proofs anything remotely resembling a conclusion in the form of 'beyond our understanding'.

So again, what is it exactly that you're looking for? We aim to please.

[Philip]

JustHuman, first, you ignore that the universe had to have an all-powerful, immensely intelligent, and ETERNAL Source. Those attributes all match up with the God of the Bible. Sciences says their was a BEGINNING - so does Scripture. You also ignore history that validates impossible to know prophecies, made LONG before they were fulfilled. The prophecies concerning the Messiah to come (Jesus), key events involving Israel - these are specific and undeniably fulfilled - as well as collectively amazing. Anyone thinking these were random, made-up "lucky guesses" - really, JH, you need to study these things.

Here's a good start on the prophecies that were fulfilled: http://www.equip.org/article/jesus-is-the-messiah/ - each, a matter of a known historical, validate, before and after!

[Justhuman]

I know (more or less) the definition of God, 'I grasp that'. Kurieo wrote some very enlightening posts about that.
To accept 'your' God is accepting it with a BIG leap of faith. There is no science involved in that leap. Just the concept of God. Whether it's logical, whether it makes sense, that all seem to not matter. And I will not accept explanations like 'beyond our understanding' or 'it's to incomprehensible for our human minds'. Even besides our limit in understanding, we also have our imagination, which can transcend understanding.

Dear Lord man (or woman, sorry, I don't know your gender) you are all over the place. So which one do you want, logic, science, or faith? If you're looking for a proof, then you'd better steer clear of science since science is not in the business of proving anything, but in the business of providing evidence. There are plenty of evidence-based (scientific that is) material we can quote in support of the existence of God but they would be just that, evidence, not proof. If proof you're looking for then it MUST be the metaphysical kind, and that, my dear friend, is nothing but logic. Nowhere you will find in those proofs anything remotely resembling a conclusion in the form of 'beyond our understanding'.

So again, what is it exactly that you're looking for? We aim to please.

The discussions.godandscience.org way.

[Justhuman]

JustHuman, first, you ignore that the universe had to have an all-powerful, immensely intelligent, and ETERNAL Source. Those attributes all match up with the God of the Bible. Sciences says their was a BEGINNING - so does Scripture. You also ignore history that validates impossible to know prophecies, made LONG before they were fulfilled. The prophecies concerning the Messiah to come (Jesus), key events involving Israel - these are specific and undeniably fulfilled - as well as collectively amazing. Anyone thinking these were random, made-up "lucky guesses" - really, JH, you need to study these things.

Here's a good start on the prophecies that were fulfilled: http://www.equip.org/article/jesus-is-the-messiah/ - each, a matter of a known historical, validate, before and after!

No. You keep repeating that "...the universe had to have an all-powerful, immensely intelligent, and ETERNAL Source.", like there is and cannot be any alternative. And ok, maybe in your view there isn't any other alternative possible. But have you even tried to understand the evolutionary version of the universe? I mean really grasp the theory and science behind it? And of course there are questions, gaps and unknown issues that need further exploration and explanation, like the ones I ask about Gods world.

[Hortator]

I know (more or less) the definition of God, 'I grasp that'. Kurieo wrote some very enlightening posts about that.
To accept 'your' God is accepting it with a BIG leap of faith. There is no science involved in that leap. Just the concept of God. Whether it's logical, whether it makes sense, that all seem to not matter. And I will not accept explanations like 'beyond our understanding' or 'it's to incomprehensible for our human minds'. Even besides our limit in understanding, we also have our imagination, which can transcend understanding.

Dear Lord man (or woman, sorry, I don't know your gender) you are all over the place. So which one do you want, logic, science, or faith? If you're looking for a proof, then you'd better steer clear of science since science is not in the business of proving anything, but in the business of providing evidence. There are plenty of evidence-based (scientific that is) material we can quote in support of the existence of God but they would be just that, evidence, not proof. If proof you're looking for then it MUST be the metaphysical kind, and that, my dear friend, is nothing but logic. Nowhere you will find in those proofs anything remotely resembling a conclusion in the form of 'beyond our understanding'.

So again, what is it exactly that you're looking for? We aim to please.

The discussions.godandscience.org way.

I think you're looking for the validate my world view way.

In which case, there are many other websites to choose from for that.

I have to say though, I'm surprised you're still here. Most atheists are aware of when they are getting beaten up very badly in debate.

[Justhuman]

I know (more or less) the definition of God, 'I grasp that'. Kurieo wrote some very enlightening posts about that.
To accept 'your' God is accepting it with a BIG leap of faith. There is no science involved in that leap. Just the concept of God. Whether it's logical, whether it makes sense, that all seem to not matter. And I will not accept explanations like 'beyond our understanding' or 'it's to incomprehensible for our human minds'. Even besides our limit in understanding, we also have our imagination, which can transcend understanding.

Dear Lord man (or woman, sorry, I don't know your gender) you are all over the place. So which one do you want, logic, science, or faith? If you're looking for a proof, then you'd better steer clear of science since science is not in the business of proving anything, but in the business of providing evidence. There are plenty of evidence-based (scientific that is) material we can quote in support of the existence of God but they would be just that, evidence, not proof. If proof you're looking for then it MUST be the metaphysical kind, and that, my dear friend, is nothing but logic. Nowhere you will find in those proofs anything remotely resembling a conclusion in the form of 'beyond our understanding'.

So again, what is it exactly that you're looking for? We aim to please.

The discussions.godandscience.org way.

I think you're looking for the validate my world view way.

In which case, there are many other websites to choose from for that.

I have to say though, I'm surprised you're still here. Most atheists are aware of when they are getting beaten up very badly in debate.

Ha! Beaten! Not by far! If your answers are like "because He is God, it cannot be any other way", then that is no debate, it is a mere re-statement of a circular reasoning.

When I ask whether God knows His own future you (theists in general) state that because He is God, He does. Over and over the same answer. And I understand that reasoning very well, for you have no choice other than believing in those pillars of God-ness. If one of those pillars even gets the slightest dent, the whole God-ness would colapse.