Why I am not an Atheist

[Justhuman]

... But I'm curious, JH, what things do you believe make the God of the Bible makes impossible to exist?

First of all let me state that I believe the Bible is a valid historic document, describing actual persons and events. But it is also a 'colored' version of theistic writers. It is not an unbiased document.
If you believe in the biblical God, the events written in the Bible must be true. For example: how did the first writer get the knowledge of creation? The only answer is that it must have been God that told that to him (... or to the very first persons He told it to, which handed the spoken word of Him over to the following generation, until it reached the writer), for only God could have known that events. So, what if that by God Himself spoken explanation turns out not to be what science tells us? Either what was written down is not what God told (which would make everything else in the Bible questionable), or... God does not exist and what was written down was only the thoughts and interpretations of the writers, making God a figment of human non-understanding in his evolutionary origin. Having concluded this way that God is a mere figment of humanity is one aspect why I think God does not exist.

Does that make Him impossible to exist?
Concluding something is a figment makes thinking about that 'something' philosophical. Whitout hard evidence for the (non)-physical presence of an immaterial being it probably will always be philosophical.

[Justhuman]

... But I'm curious, JH, what things do you believe make the God of the Bible makes impossible to exist?

First of all let me state that I believe the Bible is a valid historic document, describing actual persons and events. But it is also a 'colored' version of theistic writers. It is not an unbiased document.
If you believe in the biblical God, the events written in the Bible must be true. For example: how did the first writer get the knowledge of creation? The only answer is that it must have been God that told that to him (... or to the very first persons He told it to, which handed the spoken word of Him over to the following generation, until it reached the writer), for only God could have known that events. So, what if that by God Himself spoken explanation turns out not to be what science tells us? Either what was written down is not what God told (which would make everything else in the Bible questionable), or... God does not exist and what was written down was only the thoughts and interpretations of the writers, making God a figment of human non-understanding in his evolutionary origin. Since disproving that very first biblical event does question all that is written in the Bible, it questions also the very existence of God. I concluded therefore God does not exist.

Does that make Him impossible to exist?
Concluding something is a figment makes thinking about that 'something' philosophical. Whitout hard evidence for the (non)-physical presence of an immaterial being it probably will always be philosophical.

[Kenny]

What I'm certain of is I at least and definitely do not believe that (a) God exists.

I’m curious; what do you mean when you say “you don’t believe that (a) God exist”?
The problem with speaking about God, is there isn’t a consensus of what or who God is. To say you don’t believe in the existence of Santa, Fairies, elves, etc. everybody knows exactly what you are talking about because there is a consensus of what those things are; everybody agrees on who/what Santa, Fairies, and elves are. But with God its different; there are countless concepts people have and continue to have of God. So for you to say you don’t believe God exist, are you saying

*Of all the concepts people have ever had of God, none of them exist?

*That you have an idea of a being that you would call God, and that being doesn’t exist?

*Or perhaps the person you are discussing with has a concept of who God is, and you are speaking specifically of that particular God as not existing?

Or something else? What do you mean when you say you don’t believe God exist?

Ken

*Of all the concepts people have ever had of God, none of them exist?

I do not know all concepts of God that people ever had, so I can't judge about all of those god-views, but generally speaking: yes, I do not believe in the concept of a god, therefore I think no god exists, or ever existed.

In our billion years old earthly history I do not see any presence of a god until some early humans explained natural phenomena by 'creating' supernatural entities that were inflicting those phenomena.

You seem to have this view that God equals the God described in the Bible. That isn’t true. As I mentioned in my earlier post, there is no consensus of who God is; there are those who worship nature, the Sun, or even people who are as human as you or I. The Royal Kumari of Nepal is worshipped by Hindus as God, Haile Selassie of Ethiopia was worshipped as God by Rastafarians, (Haile died in the 1970’s but Kumari is still alive today) These people are as human as you or I. Don’t cha think it would be foolish to claim what Hindu or Rastafarians may call God doesn’t exist simply because they choose to call them God? I believe in the Bible there were those who worshipped a Golden Calf. What is a Golden Calf? A big chunk of metal. If people can convince themselves to worship a big chunk of metal, they can worship anything IMO.

There is a big difference between judging the existence of what some may call God, vs judging whether it is God or not. You can recognize the existence of Kumari, or Haile, without calling them God; thus you are still atheist towards Hindu and Rastafarian. You can recognize the existence of Jesus as a historic person without believing what Christians say about Jesus thus making you atheist towards Christianity. You can even believe Yahweh, or Allah, may have existed (perhaps as evolved beings from another planet for example) and not believe them to be God, and still be Atheist towards those religions as well. IOW, just because you are Atheist, doesn’t mean you can’t recognize what some may choose to call God may exist. Does this make sense to you? If not, please explain.

Ken

[RickD]

Kenny,

As explained numerous times before, if a being does not have all of the attributes listed here, he/it cannot be God.

Until you understand that, you'll continue repeating the same error, as you're repeating now.

[RickD]

Kenny,

Start with one of the basics.

God must be being itself. In other words, God must be eternal, and uncreated.

If the god you are trying to describe isn't eternally existing, then something created your god. Which would mean that whatever created your god, is more powerful than your god. And therefore, your god is not God.

[Kenny]

Kenny,

As explained numerous times before, if a being does not have all of the attributes listed here, he/it cannot be God.

Until you understand that, you'll continue repeating the same error, as you're repeating now.

That’s the Christian/Western concept; what about some of the Eastern concepts, or of other religions? There have been plenty of Deities through out history, and even today that don’t fit that category. This is what I was trying to point out.

Ken

[Justhuman]

What I'm certain of is I at least and definitely do not believe that (a) God exists.

I’m curious; what do you mean when you say “you don’t believe that (a) God exist”?
The problem with speaking about God, is there isn’t a consensus of what or who God is. To say you don’t believe in the existence of Santa, Fairies, elves, etc. everybody knows exactly what you are talking about because there is a consensus of what those things are; everybody agrees on who/what Santa, Fairies, and elves are. But with God its different; there are countless concepts people have and continue to have of God. So for you to say you don’t believe God exist, are you saying

*Of all the concepts people have ever had of God, none of them exist?

*That you have an idea of a being that you would call God, and that being doesn’t exist?

*Or perhaps the person you are discussing with has a concept of who God is, and you are speaking specifically of that particular God as not existing?

Or something else? What do you mean when you say you don’t believe God exist?

Ken

*Of all the concepts people have ever had of God, none of them exist?

I do not know all concepts of God that people ever had, so I can't judge about all of those god-views, but generally speaking: yes, I do not believe in the concept of a god, therefore I think no god exists, or ever existed.

In our billion years old earthly history I do not see any presence of a god until some early humans explained natural phenomena by 'creating' supernatural entities that were inflicting those phenomena.

You seem to have this view that God equals the God described in the Bible. That isn’t true. As I mentioned in my earlier post, there is no consensus of who God is; there are those who worship nature, the Sun, or even people who are as human as you or I. The Royal Kumari of Nepal is worshipped by Hindus as God, Haile Selassie of Ethiopia was worshipped as God by Rastafarians, (Haile died in the 1970’s but Kumari is still alive today) These people are as human as you or I. Don’t cha think it would be foolish to claim what Hindu or Rastafarians may call God doesn’t exist simply because they choose to call them God? I believe in the Bible there were those who worshipped a Golden Calf. What is a Golden Calf? A big chunk of metal. If people can convince themselves to worship a big chunk of metal, they can worship anything IMO.

There is a big difference between judging the existence of what some may call God, vs judging whether it is God or not. You can recognize the existence of Kumari, or Haile, without calling them God; thus you are still atheist towards Hindu and Rastafarian. You can recognize the existence of Jesus as a historic person without believing what Christians say about Jesus thus making you atheist towards Christianity. You can even believe Yahweh, or Allah, may have existed (perhaps as evolved beings from another planet for example) and not believe them to be God, and still be Atheist towards those religions as well. IOW, just because you are Atheist, doesn’t mean you can’t recognize what some may choose to call God may exist. Does this make sense to you? If not, please explain.

Ken

It makes sense.
I'm not trying to, nor do I want to, judge about the individual opinion of anyone. Anyone can believe what they want, and they have my 'blessing', as long as they respect the same in other people.
The discussion therefore should not address what an individual believes, but the concept behind that belief.

The scope, when referring to all that different approaches to (a) god is the same, a being or entity equal to an absolute power. Although I must admit I'm not an expert at all in all the different religions, so cannot judge about all those different forms of god-ness. But if one worships a human as a god, he is not a god, but still a human.

Most here on this forum refer to God as the Christian God, so that's what I'm mostly refering too. It can be more or less extrapolated to other forms of God believes.

[RickD]

Kenny,

As explained numerous times before, if a being does not have all of the attributes listed here, he/it cannot be God.

Until you understand that, you'll continue repeating the same error, as you're repeating now.

That’s the Christian/Western concept; what about some of the Eastern concepts, or of other religions? There have been plenty of Deities through out history, and even today that don’t fit that category. This is what I was trying to point out.

Ken

It's the same in all of the 3 Abrahamic religions. God is eternal, and uncreated.
Hinduism teaches one Supreme creator God, with many names.

Buddhists simply don't believe in God.

You need to understand the basics about who God must be, if He is God.

Or you can just keep spinning your wheels, talking about false gods, as if they could be God, just because someone believes in them.

[Philip]

That’s the Christian/Western concept; what about some of the Eastern concepts, or of other religions? There have been plenty of Deities through out history, and even today that don’t fit that category. This is what I was trying to point out.

Ken

So what ABOUT Eastern concepts of God? Hinduism, and all of the New Age religions, etc. basically teach that the entire universe is part of one nterconnected chain, and thus collectively, part of god, and that good and evil are basically two sides of the same coin, that reality is merely perception. But the universe can't be God, as it at one point (prior to the Big Bang), it did not exist - meaning, the universe had to come from another Source, as a non-existing thing cannot create ANYTHING, much less ITSELF. So Eastern concepts of God must be false! And, as Rick asserted, whatever pre-existed all things had to be eternal and uncreated / self-existing!

[Kenny]

What I'm certain of is I at least and definitely do not believe that (a) God exists.

I’m curious; what do you mean when you say “you don’t believe that (a) God exist”?
The problem with speaking about God, is there isn’t a consensus of what or who God is. To say you don’t believe in the existence of Santa, Fairies, elves, etc. everybody knows exactly what you are talking about because there is a consensus of what those things are; everybody agrees on who/what Santa, Fairies, and elves are. But with God its different; there are countless concepts people have and continue to have of God. So for you to say you don’t believe God exist, are you saying

*Of all the concepts people have ever had of God, none of them exist?

*That you have an idea of a being that you would call God, and that being doesn’t exist?

*Or perhaps the person you are discussing with has a concept of who God is, and you are speaking specifically of that particular God as not existing?

Or something else? What do you mean when you say you don’t believe God exist?

Ken

*Of all the concepts people have ever had of God, none of them exist?

I do not know all concepts of God that people ever had, so I can't judge about all of those god-views, but generally speaking: yes, I do not believe in the concept of a god, therefore I think no god exists, or ever existed.

In our billion years old earthly history I do not see any presence of a god until some early humans explained natural phenomena by 'creating' supernatural entities that were inflicting those phenomena.

You seem to have this view that God equals the God described in the Bible. That isn’t true. As I mentioned in my earlier post, there is no consensus of who God is; there are those who worship nature, the Sun, or even people who are as human as you or I. The Royal Kumari of Nepal is worshipped by Hindus as God, Haile Selassie of Ethiopia was worshipped as God by Rastafarians, (Haile died in the 1970’s but Kumari is still alive today) These people are as human as you or I. Don’t cha think it would be foolish to claim what Hindu or Rastafarians may call God doesn’t exist simply because they choose to call them God? I believe in the Bible there were those who worshipped a Golden Calf. What is a Golden Calf? A big chunk of metal. If people can convince themselves to worship a big chunk of metal, they can worship anything IMO.

There is a big difference between judging the existence of what some may call God, vs judging whether it is God or not. You can recognize the existence of Kumari, or Haile, without calling them God; thus you are still atheist towards Hindu and Rastafarian. You can recognize the existence of Jesus as a historic person without believing what Christians say about Jesus thus making you atheist towards Christianity. You can even believe Yahweh, or Allah, may have existed (perhaps as evolved beings from another planet for example) and not believe them to be God, and still be Atheist towards those religions as well. IOW, just because you are Atheist, doesn’t mean you can’t recognize what some may choose to call God may exist. Does this make sense to you? If not, please explain.

Ken

Most here on this forum refer to God as the Christian God, so that's what I'm mostly refering too. It can be more or less extrapolated to other forms of God believes.

Fair enough. It sounds like if we go back to the original question I asked you, you would pick the third option; that you are referring to a specific God (Christian God) when you say “you don’t believe God exists”. Is that correct?

Ken

[Kenny]

Kenny,

As explained numerous times before, if a being does not have all of the attributes listed here, he/it cannot be God.

Until you understand that, you'll continue repeating the same error, as you're repeating now.

That’s the Christian/Western concept; what about some of the Eastern concepts, or of other religions? There have been plenty of Deities through out history, and even today that don’t fit that category. This is what I was trying to point out.

Ken

It's the same in all of the 3 Abrahamic religions. God is eternal, and uncreated.

This is true of those specific religions, but not all religions are Abrahamic religions; I’m sure you’ve heard of Osiris, Dionysus, or even Zeus; many of those Deities are born, they die, and don’t fit the category that you previously described.

Hinduism teaches one Supreme creator God, with many names.

Not quite. In Hinduism Brahman the Creator is their Supreme Deity, but the other deities like Shiva (for example) are completely separate beings not just another name for Brahman

Buddhists simply don't believe in God.

You need to understand the basics about who God must be, if He is God.

Or you can just keep spinning your wheels, talking about false gods, as if they could be God, just because someone believes in them.

As a Christian, for you to say “God must be “X” (“X” being attributes that apply to your God) otherwise he isn’t God”, is pretty much the same as saying the God you worship is real, the others that people worship are fake; a position all Christians should be expected to take, but I am sure you are aware is not a position shared by all.
The person I was responding to was not responding from a Christian perspective, he was responding from his Atheist perspective.

Ken

[Kenny]

That’s the Christian/Western concept; what about some of the Eastern concepts, or of other religions? There have been plenty of Deities through out history, and even today that don’t fit that category. This is what I was trying to point out.

Ken

So what ABOUT Eastern concepts of God? Hinduism, and all of the New Age religions, etc. basically teach that the entire universe is part of one nterconnected chain, and thus collectively, part of god, and that good and evil are basically two sides of the same coin, that reality is merely perception. But the universe can't be God, as it at one point (prior to the Big Bang), it did not exist - meaning, the universe had to come from another Source, as a non-existing thing cannot create ANYTHING, much less ITSELF. So Eastern concepts of God must be false! And, as Rick asserted, whatever pre-existed all things had to be eternal and uncreated / self-existing!

Brahman the Creator is not the Universe, he is the Creator of the Universe. The idea that he didn’t exist prior to the Big Bang is not Hindu teaching.

[Philip]

There are different schools of pantheism, each viewing all of reality as part of God, and that the reality we see is but an illusion, and are parts of God. As we know the universe had a beginning, a physical universe which is all part of god, could not have previously existed. Of course, what one thinks of that has to do with whether they think the reality we witness is real or not - or rather, whether it is as it appears to be. If it is not, there isn't really anything we can know for certain, and all that you could know is merely some unverifiable story we've been told.

[Kenny]

There are different schools of pantheism, each viewing all of reality as part of God, and that the reality we see is but an illusion, and are parts of God. As we know the universe had a beginning, a physical universe which is all part of god, could not have previously existed. Of course, what one thinks of that has to do with whether they think the reality we witness is real or not - or rather, whether it is as it appears to be. If it is not, there isn't really anything we can know for certain, and all that you could know is merely some unverifiable story we've been told.

I was just pointing out that the Universe as we know it began at the Big Bang is a scientific theory, not something taught in Hinduism.

[Philip]

Ken: the Universe as we know it began at the Big Bang is a scientific theory, not something taught in Hinduism

No doubt about THAT! The BB event is a rather inconvenient challenge to pantheism.