Why I am not an Atheist

[PaulSacramento]

Conscious thought/imagination/the mind is immaterial.
Everything that it creates comes from the immaterial.

What we call "the mind" is actually just the thinking function of the brain. The brain is material, and it is a part of the body which is also material. Unless one has telekinetic powers, the mind is not what controls the material world.

Ken

Please show me the material imagination, please show me the thought you are having now, please show me your self-awareness, anything like that.
Not the electrical impulses that show brain activity, you could be farting for all that shows, nope, show me your actual mind contemplating what you wil have for dinner tonight.

[PaulSacramento]

Besides that, I don't believe in any form of immaterial power that can create, or control, a material realm.

I think you have that back-to-front. I'd point out we experience precisely that immediately and directly with ourselves, an extertion of our will over the natural and material realm.

I'd have to reread the "delusions of free will" posts to refreshen my mind...

Do you mean that the will controls material substances directly?
To me our will is merely the computational result of neural and biological processes, which is confined whithin the thought patterns in the brain. It is not an immaterial extension of ourselves.
Besides, how can something immaterial control something material?

Thoughts are immaterial and they control your body.

[Kenny]

Conscious thought/imagination/the mind is immaterial.
Everything that it creates comes from the immaterial.

What we call "the mind" is actually just the thinking function of the brain. The brain is material, and it is a part of the body which is also material. Unless one has telekinetic powers, the mind is not what controls the material world.

Ken

Please show me the material imagination, please show me the thought you are having now, please show me your self-awareness, anything like that.
Not the electrical impulses that show brain activity, you could be farting for all that shows, nope, show me your actual mind contemplating what you wil have for dinner tonight.

And how does thoughts, imagination and self awareness alone; control the material world? These are all functions of the brain, thus it is the brain that controls the body.

Ken

[Kurieuo]

Besides that, I don't believe in any form of immaterial power that can create, or control, a material realm.

I think you have that back-to-front. I'd point out we experience precisely that immediately and directly with ourselves, an exterion of our will over the natural and material realm.

I'd have to reread the "delusions of free will" posts to refreshen my mind...

Do you mean that the will controls material substances directly?

I believe the mind to be a faculty of the soul that, for us as physical beings, requires certain physical states to obtain in the brain and central nervous system before the mind can function.

To me our will is merely the computational result of neural and biological processes, which is confined whithin the thought patterns in the brain. It is not an immaterial extension of ourselves.

Some might consider one’s brain being touched with an electrode causing a memory to occur as evidence for such. Yet, such doesn't show mental states are reducible to physical states. Rather this only demonstrates that the mind is causally connected to the brain and not that they are identical.

Given the distinctiveness of mental and physical properties, there is a reason to embrace the two as difference substances however interlinked and connected they might be.

Besides, how can something immaterial control something material?

Why isn't it a problem to you that the material (physical) control the immaterial (conciousness), yet the other way around presents some problem? Lack of knowledge about how something works, doesn't mean it can't work. In any case, I think it's a false dilemma. The relationship as I see between mind and matter appears direct and immediate.

Consider the question of how turning a key can start a car? It starts the car because there is an system inbetween the key and the car’s engine such that turning the key causes the engine to start. The "How” question is a request to describe that intermediate mechanism.

Yet, as far as I experience, my control over my fingers as I type this message is rather direct and immediate. I don't really think much, yet I have thoughts, develop an intention to communicate a message, and just start typing. Everything just happens, my mind (will, thoughts, desires, intention) and body (brain, neurology, fingers) is so intimately tied together.

Furthermore, many philosophically inclined Theists who consider the ontology of reality are often Idealists. In a manner of speaking, everything is running on "God's mind" so-to-speak, such that what we call physical reality is simply that which we experience in the mind-constructed world. Consider how at quantum levels particles behave with observation changing the result (e.g., double-slit experiment). It mightn't be that "minds" or consciousness run on the physical order, but on the most fundamental levels the physical order running on mind.

In fact, there is quite a bit of research that shows that our mental force changes to our brain chemistry with OCD patients and what-not. The brain appears plastic and can change. People via pure will power can rewire brain neurology.

As a side, here's a video that makes a case for the "soul".

[Philip]

Please show me the material imagination, please show me the thought you are having now, please show me your self-awareness, anything like that.
Not the electrical impulses that show brain activity, you could be farting for all that shows, nope, show me your actual mind contemplating what you will have for dinner tonight.

I'm pretty sure it was:

[PaulSacramento]

Conscious thought/imagination/the mind is immaterial.
Everything that it creates comes from the immaterial.

What we call "the mind" is actually just the thinking function of the brain. The brain is material, and it is a part of the body which is also material. Unless one has telekinetic powers, the mind is not what controls the material world.

Ken

Please show me the material imagination, please show me the thought you are having now, please show me your self-awareness, anything like that.
Not the electrical impulses that show brain activity, you could be farting for all that shows, nope, show me your actual mind contemplating what you wil have for dinner tonight.

And how does thoughts, imagination and self awareness alone; control the material world? These are all functions of the brain, thus it is the brain that controls the body.

Ken

Exactly.
"...controls the body". ie: a thought (immaterial) controls the body (something material).

Glad we all agree.

[Kenny]

Conscious thought/imagination/the mind is immaterial.
Everything that it creates comes from the immaterial.

What we call "the mind" is actually just the thinking function of the brain. The brain is material, and it is a part of the body which is also material. Unless one has telekinetic powers, the mind is not what controls the material world.

Ken

Please show me the material imagination, please show me the thought you are having now, please show me your self-awareness, anything like that.
Not the electrical impulses that show brain activity, you could be farting for all that shows, nope, show me your actual mind contemplating what you wil have for dinner tonight.

And how does thoughts, imagination and self awareness alone; control the material world? These are all functions of the brain, thus it is the brain that controls the body.

Ken

Exactly.
"...controls the body". ie: a thought (immaterial) controls the body (something material).

Glad we all agree.

If I hire engineers and designers to design a house for me, then take those designs to a construction company with crew and pay them to build the house on my property, did I build that house? I was in control of it all, but did I actually build anything? Did I actually create anything?

Ken

[Philip]

Ken: If I hire engineers and designers to design a house for me, then take those designs to a construction company with crew and pay them to build the house on my property, did I build that house? I was in control of it all, but did I actually build anything? Did I actually create anything?

What's the point? What you would have done is provided the idea/plan, the financing, and recruited the builders, to end up with the house YOU first had in your mind. Would THAT specific house have been built if you did not do so or make it possible via plans and money. No. Again, I don't see the point.

[PaulSacramento]

If I hire engineers and designers to design a house for me, then take those designs to a construction company with crew and pay them to build the house on my property, did I build that house? I was in control of it all, but did I actually build anything? Did I actually create anything?

Ken

That would only really be relevant is someone said that EVERYTHING that is material comes from/is controlled by the immaterial.

No one said that.
What was point out was that the immaterial ( like a thought) and control the material ( like a body).

[Kenny]

Ken: If I hire engineers and designers to design a house for me, then take those designs to a construction company with crew and pay them to build the house on my property, did I build that house? I was in control of it all, but did I actually build anything? Did I actually create anything?

What's the point? What you would have done is provided the idea/plan, the financing, and recruited the builders, to end up with the house YOU first had in your mind. Would THAT specific house have been built if you did not do so or make it possible via plans and money. No. Again, I don't see the point.

He seems to be implying that conscious thought and imagination can create things in the physical world. My point is, you can employ all the grey matter in the world if you want, but unless you lay hands on a project, nothing gets done.

K

[Kenny]

If I hire engineers and designers to design a house for me, then take those designs to a construction company with crew and pay them to build the house on my property, did I build that house? I was in control of it all, but did I actually build anything? Did I actually create anything?

Ken

That would only really be relevant is someone said that EVERYTHING that is material comes from/is controlled by the immaterial.

No; it would be revenant if SOMETHINGS material are created by immaterial; which is what you seem to be claiming.

No one said that.
What was point out was that the immaterial ( like a thought) and control the material ( like a body).

Oh! So now you are adding the body into it? Before you only said; conscious thought and imagination can create physical things; now are you agreeing with me that the body is required as well?

[Justhuman]

Besides that, I don't believe in any form of immaterial power that can create, or control, a material realm.

I think you have that back-to-front. I'd point out we experience precisely that immediately and directly with ourselves, an exterion of our will over the natural and material realm.

I'd have to reread the "delusions of free will" posts to refreshen my mind...

Do you mean that the will controls material substances directly?

I believe the mind to be a faculty of the soul that, for us as physical beings, requires certain physical states to obtain in the brain and central nervous system before the mind can function.

To me our will is merely the computational result of neural and biological processes, which is confined whithin the thought patterns in the brain. It is not an immaterial extension of ourselves.

Some might consider one’s brain being touched with an electrode causing a memory to occur as evidence for such. Yet, such doesn't show mental states are reducible to physical states. Rather this only demonstrates that the mind is causally connected to the brain and not that they are identical.

Given the distinctiveness of mental and physical properties, there is a reason to embrace the two as difference substances however interlinked and connected they might be.

Besides, how can something immaterial control something material?

Why isn't it a problem to you that the material (physical) control the immaterial (conciousness), yet the other way around presents some problem? Lack of knowledge about how something works, doesn't mean it can't work. In any case, I think it's a false dilemma. The relationship as I see between mind and matter appears direct and immediate.

Consider the question of how turning a key can start a car? It starts the car because there is an system inbetween the key and the car’s engine such that turning the key causes the engine to start. The "How” question is a request to describe that intermediate mechanism.

Yet, as far as I experience, my control over my fingers as I type this message is rather direct and immediate. I don't really think much, yet I have thoughts, develop an intention to communicate a message, and just start typing. Everything just happens, my mind (will, thoughts, desires, intention) and body (brain, neurology, fingers) is so intimately tied together.

Furthermore, many philosophically inclined Theists who consider the ontology of reality are often Idealists. In a manner of speaking, everything is running on "God's mind" so-to-speak, such that what we call physical reality is simply that which we experience in the mind-constructed world. Consider how at quantum levels particles behave with observation changing the result (e.g., double-slit experiment). It mightn't be that "minds" or consciousness run on the physical order, but on the most fundamental levels the physical order running on mind.

In fact, there is quite a bit of research that shows that our mental force changes to our brain chemistry with OCD patients and what-not. The brain appears plastic and can change. People via pure will power can rewire brain neurology.

As a side, here's a video that makes a case for the "soul".

Thoughts are not immaterial in the sense of the opposite to material stuff. Thoughts are virual, they do not reside anywhere else than whithin the neural patterns of our brain. So thoughts do not control anything, our brain does.

[Philip]

JustHuman: Thoughts are not immaterial in the sense of the opposite to material stuff. Thoughts are virual, they do not reside anywhere else than whithin the neural patterns of our brain. So thoughts do not control anything, our brain does.

To have thoughts, a brain must first exist. But if the brain controlled everything INDEPENDENT of the person / owner of it, that would be hard determinism - which would mean we are just helpless robots without responsibility for our own desires and actions. Which would also mean that all moral debates are pointless! Our brain can have all manner of random thoughts, but it also can decide how we wish to respond to them (our will), and what actions we desire in response. We are not controlled by our random thoughts - some of which are often hideous. So, we can control our brains response to thoughts and impulses. The entire idea of evil actions revolves around the belief that we are not controlled by the terrible thoughts we might have - of course, unless one's brain is malfunctioning and thus one's self control is altered or limited.

[Kenny]

JustHuman: Thoughts are not immaterial in the sense of the opposite to material stuff. Thoughts are virual, they do not reside anywhere else than whithin the neural patterns of our brain. So thoughts do not control anything, our brain does.

To have thoughts, a brain must first exist. But if the brain controlled everything INDEPENDENT of the person / owner of it, that would be hard determinism

Nobody is saying that. We are refuting the claim that immaterial creates material. The point is, all thoughts and ideas come from the brain, which is a part of the person. The person is material thus when a person uses his brain/mind to create, this is not an example of non material creating material.

Ken

[Justhuman]

JustHuman: Thoughts are not immaterial in the sense of the opposite to material stuff. Thoughts are virual, they do not reside anywhere else than whithin the neural patterns of our brain. So thoughts do not control anything, our brain does.

To have thoughts, a brain must first exist. But if the brain controlled everything INDEPENDENT of the person / owner of it, that would be hard determinism - which would mean we are just helpless robots without responsibility for our own desires and actions. Which would also mean that all moral debates are pointless! Our brain can have all manner of random thoughts, but it also can decide how we wish to respond to them (our will), and what actions we desire in response. We are not controlled by our random thoughts - some of which are often hideous. So, we can control our brains response to thoughts and impulses. The entire idea of evil actions revolves around the belief that we are not controlled by the terrible thoughts we might have - of course, unless one's brain is malfunctioning and thus one's self control is altered or limited.

I don't understand why hard determinism results in "helpless robots". Anyway we look at it, all our actions are determined by previous actions, whether one is a theist or an atheist, or whatever (non)religion. Even if hard determinism is what it is, it doesn't matter unless you exactly know what happens next. Until the time it is possible to predict the exact future based on past and current state, our future is undetermined and ignorant to us.
A thought is not something which resides in some immaterial realm, detached from.our brain. Thoughts are a physical and intricate part of neural brain patterns, and are as such in fact material of origin.