Animals Complex Emotions

[kateliz]

I think that the first ape painting in quality is above that of a middle income year and a half old kid.

Income won't affect a kid that young! The paintings are not of anything. They are blobs of colour and mixing of colours.

You want to find what is not there.

[kateliz]

Yes they can. They can debate about the concept- therefore they can fathom it.

[Believer]

numeral2_5, anyway you cut it, slice it, or dice it, this is going in complete 360 degree circles. Your information is not even to the level to be called sufficient, you have provided no proof let alone evidence that apes have COMPLEXITIES in abstract and emotional thinking. I have seen this stuff, they don't show it, they ignore things, a lot of the time.

[numeral2_5]

Agnostics don't understand the concept of a god; I know, most of my family are agnostics.

[kateliz]

If they can talk about it, they do.

[Believer]

Agnostics don't understand the concept of a god; I know, most of my family are agnostics.

Yes, they DO understand the concept of God, they just cannot know if one exists. What does this have to do with the original point of this thread?

[numeral2_5]

They are like children; they may have fleeting attention but they can become interested and concentrate on what they are doing.

[numeral2_5]

Back to the point, I think many animals are capable of jealousy and shame.

[kateliz]

That's true, but those are feelings, not abstract thoughts.

[numeral2_5]

I personally don't understand the concept of god or know if he or she exists; the thing that stops me is if god created everyting because everything is so complex; than who created the even more complex god himself and so on.

[numeral2_5]

That's true, but those are feelings, not abstract thoughts.

The initial conversation was just about feelings.

[kateliz]

But you're the one who brought up the abstract thought. I'm refuting you.

[numeral2_5]

I personally don't understand the concept of god or know if he or she exists; the thing that stops me is if god created everyting because everything is so complex; than who created the even more complex god himself and so on.

I feel no matter what way you cut it you have the inconceivable concept of infinity and it is impossible to know the truth.

[numeral2_5]

Again there is limited evidence that these things happen like in the brain due to the fact that animals have limited consciousness. If these things were true, we'd see things like:

<li> Animals creating actual cities, towns, etc.
<li> Animals pursuing goals beyond basic survival tactics
<li> Animals worshipping God
<li> Animals creating REAL art
<li> Animals getting married
<li> Animals having birthdays
<li> Animals commemorating the dead
<li> Animals praying
<li> Animals dying for faith
<li> Animals commited to a religion
<li> Animals believing in God
<li> Animals living by moral codes
<li> Animals commiting deliberate suicide
<li> Animals pursuing understanding of creation and life
<li> Animals creating peace treaties

Need I go on? I might add some more later.
Animals can experience submission and depression but whether or not they really experience jealousy or guilt simultaneously is difficult to say because of their level of awareness/conciousness and moral understanding. And if these things exist then why don't they show more of these other kinds of emotions?

He brought up abstract thought.

[Believer]

I personally don't understand the concept of god or know if he or she exists; the thing that stops me is if god created everyting because everything is so complex; than who created the even more complex god himself and so on.

I feel no matter what way you cut it you have the inconceivable concept of infinity and it is impossible to know the truth.

Look into the evidence, you apparently are not looking into it. I know the concept of infinity, it goes on forever and ever, that is a concept. You have a concept of God by acknowledging that he/she could be a creator of life and so on. I find your posts very lacking whilst holding minor truth whilst holding minor truth, but there is nothing you have provided that is proof or evidence for what you are debating. This is going in circles and has gone off topic, end of discussion.