Are You Are Skeptic or In Denial?

[Justhuman]

justhuman wrote:

Atheists do not ask who created God, but they do ask how God came to be. And always there is this unclaimable answer that God is eternal, had no beginning, has no end. That is something you believe in with blind fate.

I think you mean blind faith.

We don't believe God is eternal because of blind faith. We believe God is eternal because of logic.

See Aquinas' Five ways, for example.

Yes, fate/faith, silly mistake, haven't seen that.

Logic and truth are not necessarily the same. You cannot deduct truth from what seems to be logical statements. To accept those statements as truth needs faith.
To accept something just because someone said so needs blind faith.

You seem to have the same problem that Kenny has. You need to understand what you're arguing against, before you argue against it.

Saying that those that believe in Aquinas' 5 ways, believe because of blind faith, shows you have no idea what you're arguing against. If you can't be honest enough to make an attempt to understand the other side's argument, you're just wasting our time.

Aquinas made his points based on assumptions. Thus his assumptions need to be right. If the assumptions are wrong, the conclusions are wrong.
The same goes for making a wrong twist to some seemingly logical conclusions. That's stacking the deck.
Since his 5 ways are philosophical of nature, believing it takes faith. Believing it without questioning whether he is right takes blind faith.

I wonder, do you attempt to understand the materialistic worldview? Can you understand it?

[RickD]

justhuman wrote:

Atheists do not ask who created God, but they do ask how God came to be. And always there is this unclaimable answer that God is eternal, had no beginning, has no end. That is something you believe in with blind fate.

I think you mean blind faith.

We don't believe God is eternal because of blind faith. We believe God is eternal because of logic.

See Aquinas' Five ways, for example.

Yes, fate/faith, silly mistake, haven't seen that.

Logic and truth are not necessarily the same. You cannot deduct truth from what seems to be logical statements. To accept those statements as truth needs faith.
To accept something just because someone said so needs blind faith.

You seem to have the same problem that Kenny has. You need to understand what you're arguing against, before you argue against it.

Saying that those that believe in Aquinas' 5 ways, believe because of blind faith, shows you have no idea what you're arguing against. If you can't be honest enough to make an attempt to understand the other side's argument, you're just wasting our time.

Aquinas made his points based on assumptions. Thus his assumptions need to be right. If the assumptions are wrong, the conclusions are wrong.
The same goes for making a wrong twist to some seemingly logical conclusions. That's stacking the deck.
Since his 5 ways are philosophical of nature, believing it takes faith. Believing it without questioning whether he is right takes blind faith.

I wonder, do you attempt to understand the materialistic worldview? Can you understand it?

Then simply show where they are wrong.

[abelcainsbrother]

I think that we Christians need a whole new strategy when it comes to dealing with atheists.We do not need to try to convince atheists God is real to atheists but instead we should work on trying to teach atheists to go by evidence in order to get to the truth of any issue and that is how important it is to go by evidence in order to determine the truth of a matter.

Because atheists don't realize how much atheism hinders a person from going by evidence.I know this will sound offensive to atheists because it can be like an insult to you personally when your wold view is chalkenged just like with religions.It is the same for atheists.But atheism hinders a person from going by evidence to determine the truth.

This is because atheists admit that they have no evidence that atheism is true.And this is the case with only atheists as far as I know. But the moment a person chooses a world view like atheism where there is no evidence it is true it causes the person to go on how they feel instead of evidence.Atheists accept atheism and then are told you don't need any evidence and so any person who accepts this kind if thinking starts to go on how they feel rather than evidence.

There is something wrong with somebody that asks for proof God exists but then has accepted a world view they know has no evidence,muchless proof it is the correct choice to make. The only way to determine truth and facts is to go by evidence though and so atheists are not going on evidence but how they feel about a god instead.

So that all they can do is come up with reasons for not believing in a god but it is not based on evidence but how they feel towards gods. We cannot reach people with evidence for God with atheists thinking like this because they are not going by evidence but how they feel. So instead of providing evidence for God our focus should be on teaching atheists the importance of going by evidence to determine what is true or not because until they choose to go by evidence and let the evidence take them where it will lead to and be willing to change their mind and admit they are wrong evidence will not be convincing to them.

We should only provide evidence to ake a point that we can but not to convince them God is real.

Also for fellow Christians there is a cause for this kind of thinking in our world and I believe it has to do with the teaching of evolution as true science.The theory of evolution has hurt the way we do science and so we need to do everything we can to defeat evolution once and for all.Now Christians have done tried everything else except the Gap Theory when it comes to evolution and it has not worked and so if we really do desire to defeat evolution we must change what we have been doing and we must use the Gap Theory to do it.Let's just try it knowing that no creation interpretation is a salvation issue.If you are a Christian who rejects evolution I want to challenge you to stop using the creation interpretation you have been using and use the Gap Theory instead when dealing with evolutionists and I believe you will see and realize how much more effective it is over the one you have been using. Just try it for some time and I think you'll see how effective it is against evolution.

Well, it is enough to write once we atheists do not need evidence, or should go by evidence, instead of repeating it a dozen times in different phrasing. We get the point.

Besides I disagree we atheists do not have any evidence and/or proof for our case. Though it probably will be evidence/proof you are not willing to accept because it is in contradiction with your belief.

I am not repeating it for no reason.I was only repeating it to point out how I gave evidence for our eternal God since Kenny denied I did.Well ask atheists for evidence atheism is true then and they'll tell you they don't have to have any evidence.Bottom line is I gave Kenny evidence he just refuses to acknowledge the facts for some reason.I'm all about evidence so if you have evidence atheism is true then give it,most atheists explain why they don't have to have any evidence.You should ask them for evidence and you'll see what I mean.

[abelcainsbrother]

I already gave you evidence and you chock it up to me just declaring something is true and then expecting you to just believe it.

I guess we have a different concept of what constitutes evidence huh?

You don't go by evidence though and when I give it to you what you really want is proof God did it and not evidence.

Actually I was looking for a link to a scientific website or something other than your word to back up your claim.

If you don't know that things are caused in our world and things that are caused are caused by something else then you are just denying reality.

C’mon bro! You went a little further than claiming “things are caused in our world, and things that are caused are caused by something else”. If that was the extent of your claims, I would not be arguing with you.

This is why I have challenged you before to make a list of things in our world that do not apply to these facts and you never did.

As I said before, Just because I don’t know of “X” happening doesn’t mean it has never happened.

Because this is what I did in order to see the fact that an uncaused first cause is a must when it comes to our world and universe. This is not just "God of the gaps" like you imply this is accepting the facts so that I can determine who is telling the truth and who isn't.

As I mentioned to you in a previous debate, mankind only knows of 4% of the Universe; that means 96% we have no clue about. To claim God who exist outside the Universe (including that 96% we have no clue about) is responsible for the Universe, to me it makes just as much sense to assume somewhere in the 96% that we have no clue about could be responsible. Now don’t get me wrong; I’m not claiming this is true, I’m just not going to accept that your claim is true. I’m perfectly willing to admit I don’t know

There is a difference between proof and evidence and you don't go by evidence as an atheist because there is no evidence atheism is the correct world view

Atheism a world view? According to my understanding, a world view is a comprehensive philosophy of life encompassing a wide range of beliefs on mortality methodology, and so forth.
Atheism is a philosophical position pertaining to ONE particular belief; the belief in God. While it may or may not be a part of ones world view, or perhaps even have an effect on ones world view in a variety of ways, Atheism is definitely insufficient in and of itself to be considered a world view.
A point of comparison; a person might be a communist concerning the issue of economics, but communism isn’t their worldview, just their position on a specific topic. It is an aspect of their world view.

and you chose to accept it anyway. I cannot think like you.I go by evidence to determine who is telling the truth and who is'nt.But if you make a list of things in our world where these facts I presented to you do not apply then you could point it out,but you cannot.

IOW if I can’t come up with an alternative explanation, I should accept yours? No thank you.

And since you don't go by evidence you cannot tell who is telling you the truth and who is'nt and don't really care.

No, I go by evidence; just not by what YOU call evidence. My standard of evidence is MUCH different than yours.

You prove me correct when I explained earlier how you don't go by evidence but how you feel.And because you don't go by evidence you are willing to go outside reality and assume things are possible that has no basis in reality and this is exactly what you're doing.You totally disregard the evidence I gave and by blind faith assume things are possible despite the evidence I gave that shows what you assume is possible without an uncaused first cause cannot happen because things are caused in our world and all things that are caused are caused by something else.You cannot get around these facts and alter reality just because you ignore the facts.
No Exclusions. For you.
https://youtu.be/fswX_wJ63cc

[Kenny]

I think that we Christians need a whole new strategy when it comes to dealing with atheists.We do not need to try to convince atheists God is real to atheists but instead we should work on trying to teach atheists to go by evidence in order to get to the truth of any issue and that is how important it is to go by evidence in order to determine the truth of a matter.

Because atheists don't realize how much atheism hinders a person from going by evidence.I know this will sound offensive to atheists because it can be like an insult to you personally when your wold view is chalkenged just like with religions.It is the same for atheists.But atheism hinders a person from going by evidence to determine the truth.

This is because atheists admit that they have no evidence that atheism is true.And this is the case with only atheists as far as I know. But the moment a person chooses a world view like atheism where there is no evidence it is true it causes the person to go on how they feel instead of evidence.Atheists accept atheism and then are told you don't need any evidence and so any person who accepts this kind if thinking starts to go on how they feel rather than evidence.

There is something wrong with somebody that asks for proof God exists but then has accepted a world view they know has no evidence,muchless proof it is the correct choice to make. The only way to determine truth and facts is to go by evidence though and so atheists are not going on evidence but how they feel about a god instead.

So that all they can do is come up with reasons for not believing in a god but it is not based on evidence but how they feel towards gods. We cannot reach people with evidence for God with atheists thinking like this because they are not going by evidence but how they feel. So instead of providing evidence for God our focus should be on teaching atheists the importance of going by evidence to determine what is true or not because until they choose to go by evidence and let the evidence take them where it will lead to and be willing to change their mind and admit they are wrong evidence will not be convincing to them.

We should only provide evidence to ake a point that we can but not to convince them God is real.

Also for fellow Christians there is a cause for this kind of thinking in our world and I believe it has to do with the teaching of evolution as true science.The theory of evolution has hurt the way we do science and so we need to do everything we can to defeat evolution once and for all.Now Christians have done tried everything else except the Gap Theory when it comes to evolution and it has not worked and so if we really do desire to defeat evolution we must change what we have been doing and we must use the Gap Theory to do it.Let's just try it knowing that no creation interpretation is a salvation issue.If you are a Christian who rejects evolution I want to challenge you to stop using the creation interpretation you have been using and use the Gap Theory instead when dealing with evolutionists and I believe you will see and realize how much more effective it is over the one you have been using. Just try it for some time and I think you'll see how effective it is against evolution.

Well, it is enough to write once we atheists do not need evidence, or should go by evidence, instead of repeating it a dozen times in different phrasing. We get the point.

Besides I disagree we atheists do not have any evidence and/or proof for our case. Though it probably will be evidence/proof you are not willing to accept because it is in contradiction with your belief.

I am not repeating it for no reason.I was only repeating it to point out how I gave evidence for our eternal God since Kenny denied I did.Well ask atheists for evidence atheism is true then and they'll tell you they don't have to have any evidence.Bottom line is I gave Kenny evidence he just refuses to acknowledge the facts for some reason.I'm all about evidence so if you have evidence atheism is true then give it,most atheists explain why they don't have to have any evidence.You should ask them for evidence and you'll see what I mean.

ACB I have been asking you for evidence to back up your many claims for as long as I've been discussing with you and all you do is proclaim something is true, with nothing to back it up, then you call your claim evidence. Sorry it doesn't work that way. To claim something is true, with nothing to back it up is called an empty claim. Evidence is an outside source. If you have any evidence, once again, please present it.

Ken

[Kenny]

You prove me correct when I explained earlier how you don't go by evidence but how you feel.

Okay; what evidence do you want? Whatever claim I’ve made, I will back it up with evidence.

And because you don't go by evidence you are willing to go outside reality and assume things are possible that has no basis in reality and this is exactly what you're doing.

When have I ever gone outside reality to assume things are possible?

You totally disregard the evidence I gave and by blind faith assume things are possible despite the evidence I gave that shows what you assume is possible without an uncaused first cause cannot happen because things are caused in our world and all things that are caused are caused by something else.

Things are caused in this world, and those things that are caused are caused by something else? When have I ever denied that?

You cannot get around these facts and alter reality just because you ignore the facts.

Have you actually listened to what I’ve been saying?

[PaulSacramento]

All Christians believe in an All knowing, All powerful God Ken.
So your view(s) are not consistent with that.

Who said anything about all knowing or all powerful? that wasn't even a part of the conversation

K

When I'm dealing with muslims one of the questions I like to ask is,What did Allah do about man's sin?Because I know he did absolutely nothing about sin.He seems like the kind of god you entertained though.

No; the type of God I would prefer would be the kind that rewards you for your works (good behavior) rather than belief.

Ken

You prefer a God that rewards REGARDLESS as to WHY people do things?
Good luck with that.

[PaulSacramento]

All Christians believe in an All knowing, All powerful God Ken.
So your view(s) are not consistent with that.

Who said anything about all knowing or all powerful? that wasn't even a part of the conversation

K

Yes it was Ken, YOU brought up the Christian God and THAT God IS all that.

[abelcainsbrother]

I think that we Christians need a whole new strategy when it comes to dealing with atheists.We do not need to try to convince atheists God is real to atheists but instead we should work on trying to teach atheists to go by evidence in order to get to the truth of any issue and that is how important it is to go by evidence in order to determine the truth of a matter.

Because atheists don't realize how much atheism hinders a person from going by evidence.I know this will sound offensive to atheists because it can be like an insult to you personally when your wold view is chalkenged just like with religions.It is the same for atheists.But atheism hinders a person from going by evidence to determine the truth.

This is because atheists admit that they have no evidence that atheism is true.And this is the case with only atheists as far as I know. But the moment a person chooses a world view like atheism where there is no evidence it is true it causes the person to go on how they feel instead of evidence.Atheists accept atheism and then are told you don't need any evidence and so any person who accepts this kind if thinking starts to go on how they feel rather than evidence.

There is something wrong with somebody that asks for proof God exists but then has accepted a world view they know has no evidence,muchless proof it is the correct choice to make. The only way to determine truth and facts is to go by evidence though and so atheists are not going on evidence but how they feel about a god instead.

So that all they can do is come up with reasons for not believing in a god but it is not based on evidence but how they feel towards gods. We cannot reach people with evidence for God with atheists thinking like this because they are not going by evidence but how they feel. So instead of providing evidence for God our focus should be on teaching atheists the importance of going by evidence to determine what is true or not because until they choose to go by evidence and let the evidence take them where it will lead to and be willing to change their mind and admit they are wrong evidence will not be convincing to them.

We should only provide evidence to ake a point that we can but not to convince them God is real.

Also for fellow Christians there is a cause for this kind of thinking in our world and I believe it has to do with the teaching of evolution as true science.The theory of evolution has hurt the way we do science and so we need to do everything we can to defeat evolution once and for all.Now Christians have done tried everything else except the Gap Theory when it comes to evolution and it has not worked and so if we really do desire to defeat evolution we must change what we have been doing and we must use the Gap Theory to do it.Let's just try it knowing that no creation interpretation is a salvation issue.If you are a Christian who rejects evolution I want to challenge you to stop using the creation interpretation you have been using and use the Gap Theory instead when dealing with evolutionists and I believe you will see and realize how much more effective it is over the one you have been using. Just try it for some time and I think you'll see how effective it is against evolution.

Well, it is enough to write once we atheists do not need evidence, or should go by evidence, instead of repeating it a dozen times in different phrasing. We get the point.

Besides I disagree we atheists do not have any evidence and/or proof for our case. Though it probably will be evidence/proof you are not willing to accept because it is in contradiction with your belief.

I am not repeating it for no reason.I was only repeating it to point out how I gave evidence for our eternal God since Kenny denied I did.Well ask atheists for evidence atheism is true then and they'll tell you they don't have to have any evidence.Bottom line is I gave Kenny evidence he just refuses to acknowledge the facts for some reason.I'm all about evidence so if you have evidence atheism is true then give it,most atheists explain why they don't have to have any evidence.You should ask them for evidence and you'll see what I mean.

ACB I have been asking you for evidence to back up your many claims for as long as I've been discussing with you and all you do is proclaim something is true, with nothing to back it up, then you call your claim evidence. Sorry it doesn't work that way. To claim something is true, with nothing to back it up is called an empty claim. Evidence is an outside source. If you have any evidence, once again, please present it.

Ken

Yes,you ask for evidence, I give you evidence and you ignore it and reject it despite having no evidence to reject the evidence I gave you.I give you evidence you ignore it then claim I'm just declaring something true and that you can't accept it because I'm just declaring something true.But that is not true because I'm giving you evidence that an uncaused first cause is requied because things are caused in our world and things that are caused are caused by something else.You know this is true too but for some reason stop at some point for no reason or evidence to stop.

It is because you do not go by evidence but how you feel about things and this causes you to speculate and imagine that some things are not caused and that not all things that are caused by something else are caused by something else in order to deny an eternal God is required.

You have no evidence to think like you do but just don't want to allow the evidence to lead you to the truth that an uncaused first cause is required and thus an eternal God. It is you doing what you're claiming I'm doing except you're just telling yourself that an uncaused first cause is not needed by just declaring it true to yourself.

[Kenny]

I think that we Christians need a whole new strategy when it comes to dealing with atheists.We do not need to try to convince atheists God is real to atheists but instead we should work on trying to teach atheists to go by evidence in order to get to the truth of any issue and that is how important it is to go by evidence in order to determine the truth of a matter.

Because atheists don't realize how much atheism hinders a person from going by evidence.I know this will sound offensive to atheists because it can be like an insult to you personally when your wold view is chalkenged just like with religions.It is the same for atheists.But atheism hinders a person from going by evidence to determine the truth.

This is because atheists admit that they have no evidence that atheism is true.And this is the case with only atheists as far as I know. But the moment a person chooses a world view like atheism where there is no evidence it is true it causes the person to go on how they feel instead of evidence.Atheists accept atheism and then are told you don't need any evidence and so any person who accepts this kind if thinking starts to go on how they feel rather than evidence.

There is something wrong with somebody that asks for proof God exists but then has accepted a world view they know has no evidence,muchless proof it is the correct choice to make. The only way to determine truth and facts is to go by evidence though and so atheists are not going on evidence but how they feel about a god instead.

So that all they can do is come up with reasons for not believing in a god but it is not based on evidence but how they feel towards gods. We cannot reach people with evidence for God with atheists thinking like this because they are not going by evidence but how they feel. So instead of providing evidence for God our focus should be on teaching atheists the importance of going by evidence to determine what is true or not because until they choose to go by evidence and let the evidence take them where it will lead to and be willing to change their mind and admit they are wrong evidence will not be convincing to them.

We should only provide evidence to ake a point that we can but not to convince them God is real.

Also for fellow Christians there is a cause for this kind of thinking in our world and I believe it has to do with the teaching of evolution as true science.The theory of evolution has hurt the way we do science and so we need to do everything we can to defeat evolution once and for all.Now Christians have done tried everything else except the Gap Theory when it comes to evolution and it has not worked and so if we really do desire to defeat evolution we must change what we have been doing and we must use the Gap Theory to do it.Let's just try it knowing that no creation interpretation is a salvation issue.If you are a Christian who rejects evolution I want to challenge you to stop using the creation interpretation you have been using and use the Gap Theory instead when dealing with evolutionists and I believe you will see and realize how much more effective it is over the one you have been using. Just try it for some time and I think you'll see how effective it is against evolution.

Well, it is enough to write once we atheists do not need evidence, or should go by evidence, instead of repeating it a dozen times in different phrasing. We get the point.

Besides I disagree we atheists do not have any evidence and/or proof for our case. Though it probably will be evidence/proof you are not willing to accept because it is in contradiction with your belief.

I am not repeating it for no reason.I was only repeating it to point out how I gave evidence for our eternal God since Kenny denied I did.Well ask atheists for evidence atheism is true then and they'll tell you they don't have to have any evidence.Bottom line is I gave Kenny evidence he just refuses to acknowledge the facts for some reason.I'm all about evidence so if you have evidence atheism is true then give it,most atheists explain why they don't have to have any evidence.You should ask them for evidence and you'll see what I mean.

ACB I have been asking you for evidence to back up your many claims for as long as I've been discussing with you and all you do is proclaim something is true, with nothing to back it up, then you call your claim evidence. Sorry it doesn't work that way. To claim something is true, with nothing to back it up is called an empty claim. Evidence is an outside source. If you have any evidence, once again, please present it.

Ken

Yes,you ask for evidence, I give you evidence and you ignore it and reject it despite having no evidence to reject the evidence I gave you.I give you evidence you ignore it then claim I'm just declaring something true and that you can't accept it because I'm just declaring something true.But that is not true because I'm giving you evidence that an uncaused first cause is requied because things are caused in our world and things that are caused are caused by something else.You know this is true too but for some reason stop at some point for no reason or evidence to stop.

It is because you do not go by evidence but how you feel about things and this causes you to speculate and imagine that some things are not caused and that not all things that are caused by something else are caused by something else in order to deny an eternal God is required.

You have no evidence to think like you do but just don't want to allow the evidence to lead you to the truth that an uncaused first cause is required and thus an eternal God. It is you doing what you're claiming I'm doing except you're just telling yourself that an uncaused first cause is not needed by just declaring it true to yourself.

Running out of material? The last 4 replies you gave were pretty much the same thing,
*You have evidence,
*I ignore your evidence because I don’t care about the truth
*I don’t have evidence that atheist is true

And you say all of this without providing any evidence! Do you think if you say the same thing over and over again eventually I will believe it? Or have you just run out of material. It might be time for some new talking points my friend! Just a suggestion!!!

Ken

[RickD]

Kenny and ACB,


You guys are just talking past each other.

On one hand, ACB, you're offering proof of God's existence through Aquinas.

Kenny is asking for evidence, while refusing to accept the proof.

Kenny is refusing to accept logical proof, so you're just wasting your time.

And yes, Kenny can't offer proof that God doesn't exist, because there isn't any. Nor is there any evidence that God doesn't exist.

This is something that some atheists do. They cowardly hide behind an atheistic worldview, claim it's not a worldview, then claim they don't need to offer proof or evidence of their belief that God doesn't exist.

It's just a waste of time talking to such people.

[Kenny]

Kenny and ACB,


You guys are just talking past each other.

On one hand, ACB, you're offering proof of God's existence through Aquinas.

Kenny is asking for evidence, while refusing to accept the proof.

Kenny is refusing to accept logical proof, so you're just wasting your time.

And yes, Kenny can't offer proof that God doesn't exist, because there isn't any. Nor is there any evidence that God doesn't exist.

This is something that some atheists do. They cowardly hide behind an atheistic worldview, claim it's not a worldview, then claim they don't need to offer proof or evidence of their belief that God doesn't exist.

It's just a waste of time talking to such people.

What proof did ACB offer?

K

[RickD]

[Kenny]

This is not the argument ACB presented, (even though I find more holes in it than swiss cheese) but even if he did, the men in the video themselves don’t claim the points discussed as proof of God, they simply call it “a good reason to believe God exists.

Ken

[RickD]

This is not the argument ACB presented, (even though I find more holes in it than swiss cheese) but even if he did, the men in the video themselves don’t claim the points discussed as proof of God, they simply call it “a good reason to believe God exists.

Ken

I'm glad you actually watched the video.

I'd love to hear the holes you see in it.