Despite objections,why the Gap Theory is true.

[abelcainsbrother]

In my previous post I went back and added more to a previous post so you may need to re-read the latter one that is updated and includes more information than the previous post.
I'm now going to pick up where I left off going through Genesis chapter 1.It is important to notice and remember the difference between the words MADE and CREATED as we go through Genesis 1.So far God has only made and has not created anything new since Genesis 1:1.It is important you see that God is only restoring the earth or working on it to make it habitable again in order to create man and woman.As we go forward you will see that God only created 3 times in Genesis 1.

Genesis 1:14-19"And God said,Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night;and let them be for signs,and for seaons,and for days,and years.And let them be for lights in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth:and it was so.And God MADE two great lights;the greater light to rule the day,and the lesser light to rule the night:he MADE the stars also.And God set them in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth.And to rule over the day and over the night,and to divide the light from darkness:and God saw that it was good.And the evening and the morning were the fourth day."

Notice that God did not create anything in the fourth day.He worked on the stars and placed them back into the firmament.He is just making,not creating anything new.Based on the hebrew word "asah" used here it means these were not new things and based on the fact the heavens and earth were flooded as I've already showed you it is possible that because of the water that flooded the heavens it put out the stars and so God just turns them back on by working on them,some think that God just moved everything back into place as it was before because the hebrew word "asah" denotes just working on something that already existed or exists but needs work.But no creating new things is happening here.

Genesis 1:20-23 "And God said,Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life,and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.And God CREATED great whales,and every living creature that moveth,which the waters brought forth abundantly,after their kind,and every winged fowl after his kind:and God saw that it was good.And God blessed them,saying,Be fruiful,and multiply,and fill the waters in the seas,and let fowl multiply in the earth.And the evening and the morning were the fifth day."

We finally see God creating new things here on this day and notice that God created whales,living creatures,every winged kind,fowl,etc after their kind or after its kind. This means this is new life based on life that existed before in the former world that perished.It is important that you understand this, the difference between the words created and made from reading and studying Genesis 2:1-4.This is why Moses wanted us to know the difference netween these two words because as you can see it opens up greater understanding when we read Genesis 1.We totally overlook this if we overlook Genesis 2:1-4 and just read Genesis 1 without knowing the difference.We don't get the full picture and near as much detail of what God did.

Genesis 1:24-26"And God said,Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind,cattle,and creeping thing,and the beast of the earth after his kind:and it was so.And God MADE the beast of the earth after his kind,and cattle after their kind,and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind:and saw it was good."

Notice God did not create new life here on this day,he MADE this life after its kind,notice the kinds of life that was made after its kind or after his kind. This means this is not new life but is life that existed before and God is simply making it again after its kind.I believe the fossil record will bear this out also.

Genesis 1:27-28 "So God CREATED man in his own image,in the image of God CREATED he him;male and female CREATED he them.And God blessed them,and God said unto them,Be fruitful,and multiply,and REPLENISH the earth,and subdue it:and have dominion over the fish of the sea,and over the fowl of the air,and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Notice God created man new.Man had never been created before and so those Neanderthals and hominids are not man and are not related to man,yet we know they existed in the former world and were pre-Adamite races that lived in the former world before it perished.They did not evolve into man and are not DNA related to man.The reasons are because the Hominids and Neanderthals lived in the former world and the former world perished completely,then there was a Gap of time when the earth sat in a without form and void state in water and frozen but also because man was created and that means he was new.They may be similar to man but are not man.Evolutionists are looking at the evidence all wrong blending evolution imagination into the evidence while making up myths. It is possible that Neanderthals lived in this world and were the race of Cain after he murdered Abel.I have heard this theory but don't quite accept it,but it is possible.Neanderthals have a big brow that potrudes from their forehead and some think this was the mark God put on Cain,also Neanderthals were brutes compared to man.A man would not have wanted to shake hands with a Neanderthal and some think that this is how God changed Cain so that nobody would kill him for vengeance of Abel.But I'm just not sure about this and it is easier to just place them in the former world with the hominids because they would have died in Noah's flood anyway and I think they would just decay away after drowning in the flood.Also it is important that you notice God told man and woman to be fruitful and REPLENISH the earth. This again shows that life had existed before in the former world.It also is more evidence of an old earth and not a young earth.

[RickD]

ACB wrote:
Notice that God did not create anything in the fourth day.He worked on the stars and placed them back into the firmament.He is just making,not creating anything new.Based on the hebrew word "asah" used here it means these were not new things and based on the fact the heavens and earth were flooded as I've already showed you it is possible that because of the water that flooded the heavens it put out the stars and so God just turns them back on by working on them,some think that God just moved everything back into place as it was before because the hebrew word "asah" denotes just working on something that already existed or exists but needs work.But no creating new things is happening here.

Let me preface my response to what I underlined in your post, with Proverbs 27:17.

ACB,

You constantly talk about how evolution would be defeated if only Christians would debate Evolutionists from a Gap Theory point of view. When you say things, especially like the part I underlined in your paragraph above, your Gap Theory becomes a laughing stock, not only with the atheists you claim you are trying to reach, but also with your brothers and sisters in Christ.

I know no other way to tell you this, other than by just bluntly saying it, as your brother in Christ.

[Philip]

Rick: You constantly talk about how evolution would be defeated if only Christians would debate Evolutionists from a Gap Theory point of view. When you say things, especially like the part I underlined in your paragraph above, your Gap Theory becomes a laughing stock, not only with the atheists you claim you are trying to reach, but also with your brothers and sisters in Christ.

Exactly! ACB, when you constantly assert views that next to no Christian scholars or scientists hold - that, in fact, they enormously and overwhelmingly criticize, the Christian scholars per Scripture, the Christian (and secular) scientists per geologic evidences, then - particularly with non-Christians (which is FAR more important and impacting than your right to spout some unprovable wild theory) - you're killing your Christian witness and credibility. Remember, this is your Christian brothers lovingly trying to convey this to you - why would you want to spew unprovable nonsense when the result to and impact upon non-Christians only furthers their beliefs that Christianity isn't credible?

[abelcainsbrother]

ACB wrote:
Notice that God did not create anything in the fourth day.He worked on the stars and placed them back into the firmament.He is just making,not creating anything new.Based on the hebrew word "asah" used here it means these were not new things and based on the fact the heavens and earth were flooded as I've already showed you it is possible that because of the water that flooded the heavens it put out the stars and so God just turns them back on by working on them,some think that God just moved everything back into place as it was before because the hebrew word "asah" denotes just working on something that already existed or exists but needs work.But no creating new things is happening here.

Let me preface my response to what I underlined in your post, with Proverbs 27:17.

ACB,

You constantly talk about how evolution would be defeated if only Christians would debate Evolutionists from a Gap Theory point of view. When you say things, especially like the part I underlined in your paragraph above, your Gap Theory becomes a laughing stock, not only with the atheists you claim you are trying to reach, but also with your brothers and sisters in Christ.

I know no other way to tell you this, other than by just bluntly saying it, as your brother in Christ.

Thanks for the advice and I understand that some of what I explained does not make sense and does not make sense scientifically.But if God did flood the heavens like this interpretation says this would be why there is no light in Genesis 1:2.I cannot know how it truthfully happened but God did not create the stars new and just try to imagine how it would effect the heavens if God flooded it with water.And from a scientific perspective there would not be any evidence of it anyway because on the 2nd day God removed these waters made the firmament that goes all the way to the crystal sea in heaven.But perhaps I should just leave out assuming how it effected the heavens and just point out that God just worked on the stars.I do like contructive criticism and I can very well see how what i described would'nt make sense scientifically,however can you imagine the impact on science if it was the Gap Theory that became more believable that the theory of evolution? People would realize scientists were wrong.Bottom line a former lost world still better fits the evidence that has been dug out of the earth than evolution does.This is why I believe the Gap Theory over Theistic Evolution.It is based on evidence.I'm not concerned that much about what science presently believes and teaches as scientific theories.I'm mostly focused on what God's word says over what man says. Man has been wrong many times throughout history.

[abelcainsbrother]

Rick: You constantly talk about how evolution would be defeated if only Christians would debate Evolutionists from a Gap Theory point of view. When you say things, especially like the part I underlined in your paragraph above, your Gap Theory becomes a laughing stock, not only with the atheists you claim you are trying to reach, but also with your brothers and sisters in Christ.

Exactly! ACB, hen you constantly assert views that next to no Christian scholars or scientists hold - that, in fact, they enormously criticize, the Christian scholars per Scripture, the scientist per geologic evidences, then - particularly with non-Christians (which is FAR more important and impacting than your right to spout some unprovable wild theory) - you're killing your Christian witness and credibility. Remember, this is your Christian brothers lovingly trying to convey this to you - why would you want to spew unprovable nonsense when the result to and impact upon non-Christians only furthers their beliefs that Christianity isn't credible?

If you think it is unprovable then put the theory of evolution up against the Gap Theory because that is how scientific minded people look at everything.Go ahead and try to use say the fossils as evidence life evolves.Let's go through every fossil found and there is no evidence of transitioning or evolving,they all show fully formed creatures that lived in a former world different than this world.But go ahead and try to use say the fossils for evidence life evolves which is what evolutionists do.This is just one example.And once I point out that there is no credible mechanism for how life evolves and point out that scientists don't even know if life evolves after 150 years and that there is no real evidence for speciation there will be no reason to blend evolution into the fossil evidence and a former lost world different than this world becomes more believable.Based on the evidence.

[Philip]

ACB: Thanks for the advice and I understand that some of what I explained does not make sense and does not make sense scientifically.But if God did flood the heavens like this interpretation says this would be why there is no light in Genesis 1:2.I cannot know how it truthfully happened but God did not create the stars new and just try to imagine how it would effect the heavens if God flooded it with water.

ACB, "if" God flooded the heavens???? If, if, IF! You are doing the same thing that the evolutionists have - you see evidences that you glue together without proof, while well knowing there are other possibilities that ALSO fit Scripture. But your problem is bigger/two-fold: You've been acutely made aware that Christian scholars' overwhelming consensus is that the text does not allow for your theory. You've go NO proof of your "IF," on either a scientific or Biblical text consensus. You are a man alone on the moon, on this issue - really, you're coming off like a flat-earther and it's harmful to your Christian testimony!

ACB: I can very well see how what i described would'nt make sense scientifically,however can you imagine the impact on science if it was the Gap Theory that became more believable that the theory of evolution?

First place, non-believers who embrace Godless versions evolution don't look to the Bible at ALL! Do you really think they are going to wake up and suddenly say, "Wow, that GAP Theory isn't looking so crazy after all. I mean, as you don't have but the tiniest number of qualified Christians on board with your theory, how deluded can you be that GT is going to be a witness to unbelievers? And most people don't come to Christ because they think science has proven the Bible - but they are often very skeptical to see a Christian totally deny an absence of strongly, Scripturally, correlating scientific evidences.

ACB: I'm not concerned that much about what science presently believes and teaches as scientific theories.I'm mostly focused on what God's word says over what man says. Man has been wrong many times throughout history.

Yes, but you SHOULD pay attention to what the scientific evidences DO refute, because Scripture tells us that there is ANOTHER powerful testimony of His: The Creation itself!

If you think it is unprovable then put the theory of evolution up against the Gap Theory because that is how scientific minded people look at everything. Go ahead and try to use say the fossils as evidence life evolves.Let's go through every fossil found and there is no evidence of transitioning or evolving,they all show fully formed creatures...

And so both Godless and evolution AND GAP Theory are wrong! It's not a situations that it must be an either/or scenario. Just because Godless evolution is true doesn't do a thing to make GT the solution.

[Philip]

Here, MIchael Heiser walks us through the Hebrew grammar issues for several theories, including GAP.

http://www.michaelsheiser.com/Genesis%2 ... eation.pdf

You simply cannot get around the issue of the correct ancient Hebrew grammar and how its clauses either stand alone or are dependent, and what they can or can't support. Get these wrong, and GT cannot fit! Period!

[abelcainsbrother]

Here, MIchael Heiser walks us through the Hebrew grammar issues for several theories, including GAP.

http://www.michaelsheiser.com/Genesis%2 ... eation.pdf

You simply cannot get around the issue of the correct ancient Hebrew grammar and how its clauses either stand alone or are dependent, and what they can or can't support. Get these wrong, and GT cannot fit! Period!

Michael Heiser cannot be right based on how the evidence refutes evolution and confirms a former world different than this world with different kinds of life in it than this world did indeed exist.Michael Heiser might be a bible scholar but he lacks scientific knowledge and cannot see how the evidence even of Pre-Adamite races confirms the Gap Theory interpretation correct over the theory of evolution which is how all scientific minded people look at the evidence.It was prophecied by Gap Theorists that pre-Adamite races would be found and they were all basing it on reading the bible from the GapTheory pov. Remember Christians back then read the KJV bible and they saw the word "replenish" when God created man and woman and so they knew pre-Adamite races would be found and they were.Even if you choose to ignore the evidence and believe Heiser the evidence confirms this interpretation correct just like it did in the 17 and 18 hundreds by Christians who started modern day science and realized the evidence confrmed the Gap Theory interpretation. The only real problem these Christians ran into was evidence for Noah's flood which is still a problem even today which is why some come up with the idea of a local flood.But it confirmed the Gap Theory correct until Charles Darwin came along with his seductive evolution theory.In order to reach scientific minded people we have atleast got to show them how the evidence does indeed confirm the Gap Theory interpretation is correct over the Theory of Evolution.

[abelcainsbrother]

ACB: Thanks for the advice and I understand that some of what I explained does not make sense and does not make sense scientifically.But if God did flood the heavens like this interpretation says this would be why there is no light in Genesis 1:2.I cannot know how it truthfully happened but God did not create the stars new and just try to imagine how it would effect the heavens if God flooded it with water.

ACB, "if" God flooded the heavens???? If, if, IF! You are doing the same thing that the evolutionists have - you see evidences that you glue together without proof, while well knowing there are other possibilities that ALSO fit Scripture. But your problem is bigger/two-fold: You've been acutely made aware that Christian scholars' overwhelming consensus is that the text does not allow for your theory. You've go NO proof of your "IF," on either a scientific or Biblical text consensus. You are a man alone on the moon, on this issue - really, you're coming off like a flat-earther and it's harmful to your Christian testimony!

ACB: I can very well see how what i described would'nt make sense scientifically,however can you imagine the impact on science if it was the Gap Theory that became more believable that the theory of evolution?

First place, non-believers who embrace Godless versions evolution don't look to the Bible at ALL! Do you really think they are going to wake up and suddenly say, "Wow, that GAP Theory isn't looking so crazy after all. I mean, as you don't have but the tiniest number of qualified Christians on board with your theory, how deluded can you be that GT is going to be a witness to unbelievers? And most people don't come to Christ because they think science has proven the Bible - but they are often very skeptical to see a Christian totally deny an absence of strongly, Scripturally, correlating scientific evidences.

ACB: I'm not concerned that much about what science presently believes and teaches as scientific theories.I'm mostly focused on what God's word says over what man says. Man has been wrong many times throughout history.

Yes, but you SHOULD pay attention to what the scientific evidences DO refute, because Scripture tells us that there is ANOTHER powerful testimony of His: The Creation itself!

If you think it is unprovable then put the theory of evolution up against the Gap Theory because that is how scientific minded people look at everything. Go ahead and try to use say the fossils as evidence life evolves.Let's go through every fossil found and there is no evidence of transitioning or evolving,they all show fully formed creatures...

And so both Godless and evolution AND GAP Theory are wrong! It's not a situations that it must be an either/or scenario. Just because Godless evolution is true doesn't do a thing to make GT the solution.

What would make you believe God cannot flood the heavens and put the earth in water? Because the earth is in waters(plural)in Genesis 1:2. If people do not come to believe in God based on evidence then how come we do apologetics as Christians defending our faith from skeptics? We do not determine truth based on consensus.I mean you're using the same arguments evolutionists use that the vast majority of scientists accept evolution and yet I think we know it is not true.You also overlook that up until about the 1970's most bible scholars,theologions and even Christians believed the Gap Theory to be true or they accepted it as a viable interpretation. It has only been since about the 1970's it changed and it changed because of young earth creationism too. And yet you disregard them somehow thinking that modern scholars are all right and that they somehow understand hebrew and greek and the bible better than those of the past.Yes creation is a powerful testimony for God and Gap Theorist believe in creation.

[Philip]

ACB: Michael Heiser cannot be right based on how the evidence refutes evolution and confirms a former world different than this world with different kinds of life in it than this world did indeed exist.Michael Heiser might be a bible scholar but he lacks scientific knowledge and cannot see how the evidence even of Pre-Adamite races confirms the Gap Theory interpretation correct over the theory of evolution which is how all scientific minded people look at the evidence.

So, you're going to believe YOUR view of the geologic and archaeological evidence over the overwhelming consensus of Christians who are also scientists. Please show me what scientists believe in a former world. But you are also holding YOUR interpretation of the science data over the how Scholars interpret ancient Hebrew - which has strict rules. But don't let that stop you, eh? So your also throwing away the vast consensus of Christian textual and Hebrew scholarship?

ACB: ... so they knew pre-Adamite races would be found and they were.

Really, do you know precisely WHEN Adam existed? WHAT pre-Adamic me have been PROVEN? That is pure speculation. While I personally have wondered if the text might support such pre-Adamic people - and that is uncertain - but even if it does, I realize such people are unproven. Because, first, one must define precisely when Adam lived - and you cannot do that. I've seen where Hugh Ross asserts Adam lived between 50,000 and 100,000 years ago. We also have to be careful with defining "men" - when looking at the fossil record.

ADB: Even if you choose to ignore the evidence and believe Heiser the evidence confirms this interpretation correct just like it did in the 17 and 18 hundreds by Christians who started modern day science and realized the evidence confrmed the Gap Theory interpretation.

WRONG! There is a HUGE difference between the physical evidence fitting a THEORY, and in PROVING it.

ACB: The only real problem these Christians ran into was evidence for Noah's flood which is still a problem even today which is why some come up with the idea of a local flood. But it confirmed the Gap Theory correct.

GT has NEVER been confirmed - it has a myriad of problems!

ACB: Until Charles Darwin came along with his seductive evolution theory.In order to reach scientific minded people we have at least got to show them how the evidence does indeed confirm the Gap Theory interpretation is correct over the Theory of Evolution.

Which you'll never do. You can't prove GT! VERY few Christians are qualified to weigh in on it, from both a scientific view and a textual scholar view, next to none currently believe it. If you can't convince Christian scholars, how the heck do you think you will convince unbelievers. GT's truth or falsity has not one thing to do with what people believe about evolution. Both could be wrong, or one (but not both) true. And you've just dismissed the Hebrew scholarship because it clashes with your theory - which is a huge mistake!

[abelcainsbrother]

ACB: Michael Heiser cannot be right based on how the evidence refutes evolution and confirms a former world different than this world with different kinds of life in it than this world did indeed exist.Michael Heiser might be a bible scholar but he lacks scientific knowledge and cannot see how the evidence even of Pre-Adamite races confirms the Gap Theory interpretation correct over the theory of evolution which is how all scientific minded people look at the evidence.

So, you're going to believe YOUR view of the geologic and archaeological evidence over the overwhelming consensus of Christians who are also scientists. Please show me what scientists believe in a former world. But you are also holding YOUR interpretation of the science data over the how Scholars interpret ancient Hebrew - which has strict rules. But don't let that stop you, eh? So your also throwing away the vast consensus of Christian textual and Hebrew scholarship?

ACB: ... so they knew pre-Adamite races would be found and they were.

Really, do you know precisely WHEN Adam existed? WHAT pre-Adamic me have been PROVEN? That is pure speculation. While I personally have wondered if the text might support such pre-Adamic people - and that is uncertain - but even if it does, I realize such people are unproven. Because, first, one must define precisely when Adam lived - and you cannot do that. I've seen where Hugh Ross asserts Adam lived between 50,000 and 100,000 years ago. We also have to be careful with defining "men" - when looking at the fossil record.

ADB: Even if you choose to ignore the evidence and believe Heiser the evidence confirms this interpretation correct just like it did in the 17 and 18 hundreds by Christians who started modern day science and realized the evidence confrmed the Gap Theory interpretation.

WRONG! There is a HUGE difference between the physical evidence fitting a THEORY, and in PROVING it.

ACB: The only real problem these Christians ran into was evidence for Noah's flood which is still a problem even today which is why some come up with the idea of a local flood. But it confirmed the Gap Theory correct.

GT has NEVER been confirmed - it has a myriad of problems!

ACB: Until Charles Darwin came along with his seductive evolution theory.In order to reach scientific minded people we have at least got to show them how the evidence does indeed confirm the Gap Theory interpretation is correct over the Theory of Evolution.

Which you'll never do. You can't prove GT! VERY few Christians are qualified to weigh in on it, from both a scientific view and a textual scholar view, next to none currently believe it. If you can't convince Christian scholars, how the heck do you think you will convince unbelievers. GT's truth or falsity has not one thing to do with what people believe about evolution. Both could be wrong, or one (but not both) true. And you've just dismissed the Hebrew scholarship because it clashes with your theory - which is a huge mistake!

I never said the Gap Theory can be proven.You are raising the bar so high that you make it unfair to the rest of the bible.I'm talking about evidence this interpretation is correct.Pre-Adamite races have been confirmed correct when hominids and Neanderthals were found who were pre-Adamite races before man.Even science teaches they were before men including Hugh Ross.He has them in this world prior to man though,where we have them in the former world. If we are going to get into science then we must realize that either evolution is true or that there was simply a former world that perished before God made this world.It can only be one or the other when it comes to science.And I'm saying that based on the evidence a former world better represents what the geological and archeological evidence shows.You are defending evolution even when I think you know it is not true.And it is not fair that you defend evolution without being able to get into the evidence to confirm it correct compared to the Gap Theory.

[Philip]

ACB: I never said the Gap Theory can be proven.You are raising the bar so high that you make it unfair to the rest of the bible.I'm talking about evidence this interpretation is correct.Pre-Adamite races have been confirmed correct when hominids and Neanderthals were found who were pre-Adamite races before man.

Yes, but all of those were not men - while there's speculation about some of them. Course I know of the hominid debate.

ACB: If we are going to get into science then we must realize that either evolution is true or that there was simply a former world that perished before God made this world.

You are making the same mistake the evolutionists make, it's just that you apply the fossils to another world. The evolutionists insists links between species, which progressive evolutionists deny. So, that same fossil record need not reveal a former world. Scripture says the animals came first. Period. And that is what the fossil record shows.

ACB: You are defending evolution even when I think you know it is not true.

How in the world am I defending evolution - which I do not hold to (macro)??? ACB, you seem to think the choice is ONLY between GT and evolution. And, of course, there are other Scriptural possibilities concerning the texts - that rule out both.

[abelcainsbrother]

ACB: I never said the Gap Theory can be proven.You are raising the bar so high that you make it unfair to the rest of the bible.I'm talking about evidence this interpretation is correct.Pre-Adamite races have been confirmed correct when hominids and Neanderthals were found who were pre-Adamite races before man.

Yes, but all of those were not men - while there's speculation about some of them. Course I know of the hominid debate.

ACB: If we are going to get into science then we must realize that either evolution is true or that there was simply a former world that perished before God made this world.

You are making the same mistake the evolutionists make, it's just that you apply the fossils to another world. The evolutionists insists links between species, which progressive evolutionists deny. So, that same fossil record need not reveal a former world. Scripture says the animals came first. Period. And that is what the fossil record shows.

ACB: You are defending evolution even when I think you know it is not true.

How in the world am I defending evolution - which I do not hold to (macro)??? ACB, you seem to think the choice is ONLY between GT and evolution. And, of course, there are other Scriptural possibilities concerning the texts - that rule out both.

Yes I do believe either the theory of evolution is correct or there was a former world that existed that perished before God made this world.I believe the evidence confirms the former world.Instead of blending evolution into the evidence so that you have everything in this world,stop,and know that the former world perished because there was a gap in them billions of years and since life does not evolve it cannot be related to the life in this world.Also it is not just the fossils that confirm there was a former world they are just part of the evidence,even the plant life was different in the former world.Instead of blending evolution into the evidence we should be looking at it as if there were two differant worlds and comparing both worlds and this is how we should be looking at the evidence and not evolution.

[Philip]

SIGH

[abelcainsbrother]

SIGH

One of these days you'll be smiling when you actually see what happens when an evolutionist tangles with a knowledgable Gap Theorist and is totally defeated,unlike with YEC or ID.Some people just have to see it to believe it.