Morality

[Kenny]

Why do you call it "unfortunate"? I don't see it as unfortunate, you just need to step up your game perhaps to ensure you're one of these many. You live in the US which provides many social opportunities that can be taken advantage of. I have such in my own country too. So then, if we decide to remain one of flock rather than rising up to become say a shepherd, then it's our own fault.

Our situation, if it be a poor one in life, isn't "unfortunate" at all. Rather, it is likely due to our own stupidity and not stepping up, and even on other people, to get to the top. There is so much freedom to be had, even playing legally, when you no longer need to subscribe to these apparent social norms but use them to your advantage.

I call it unfortunate because it goes against my values.

Whose values? No, not really your values. Values that happened to somehow evolve within us, or which are more likely vestiges of religion and belief in God/gods that have seeped down from one generation to the next which allows those in positions of authority to control the masses. You just think they're "your values", however you've just been indoctrinated by society. Such keeps you inline and behaving like a good little lamb rather than acting in your own best interests.

Not sure what you mean by “acting like a lamb”, but how do you know this behavior (whatever it is) is not what I believe is in my best interest? And for people like you who look forward to going to heaven, isn’t acting like a lamb in store for you there? If acting like a lamb is good enough for you, why would you assume it isn’t good enough for me?

Ken

[Kenny]

Stealing is a fine example because in no culture and in no point of recorded history has stealing been viewed as good.
That stealing is not good is not subjective because no one agrees that it is good, so we have at least ONE case of a SPECIFIC act that is objectively NOT GOOD.

I think the problem with the claim that stealing is wrong, is the question then becomes; What constitutes stealing? When I commit action “X”, you might call it stealing, whereas I might call it taking what is rightfully mine. That is where the subjectivity comes in.

Ken

No according to all recorded world history and common rational reasoning.
Never once has any culture ever viewed stealing ( taking what belongs to another) as right.
It may be condoned but never viewed as right.

So your definition of stealing is to take what belongs to another? Okay; I can agree with that! So are you claiming that never in the history of mankind has there ever been a culture who felt some people were entitled to another mans property/wealth/earnings? Is this what you are saying?

[PaulSacramento]

Stealing is a fine example because in no culture and in no point of recorded history has stealing been viewed as good.
That stealing is not good is not subjective because no one agrees that it is good, so we have at least ONE case of a SPECIFIC act that is objectively NOT GOOD.

I think the problem with the claim that stealing is wrong, is the question then becomes; What constitutes stealing? When I commit action “X”, you might call it stealing, whereas I might call it taking what is rightfully mine. That is where the subjectivity comes in.

Ken

No according to all recorded world history and common rational reasoning.
Never once has any culture ever viewed stealing ( taking what belongs to another) as right.
It may be condoned but never viewed as right.

So your definition of stealing is to take what belongs to another? Okay; I can agree with that! So are you claiming that never in the history of mankind has there ever been a culture who felt some people were entitled to another mans property/wealth/earnings? Is this what you are saying?

I am saying that you don't find any culture that views stealing as good.
In other words, you may find a culture that things taking from another is fine ( vikings plundering for example) BUT they don't think that it is good if it happens TO THEM.
No culture has ever said that "when people take what is ours without our permission, this is good".

[Kenny]

Stealing is a fine example because in no culture and in no point of recorded history has stealing been viewed as good.
That stealing is not good is not subjective because no one agrees that it is good, so we have at least ONE case of a SPECIFIC act that is objectively NOT GOOD.

I think the problem with the claim that stealing is wrong, is the question then becomes; What constitutes stealing? When I commit action “X”, you might call it stealing, whereas I might call it taking what is rightfully mine. That is where the subjectivity comes in.

Ken

No according to all recorded world history and common rational reasoning.
Never once has any culture ever viewed stealing ( taking what belongs to another) as right.
It may be condoned but never viewed as right.

So your definition of stealing is to take what belongs to another? Okay; I can agree with that! So are you claiming that never in the history of mankind has there ever been a culture who felt some people were entitled to another mans property/wealth/earnings? Is this what you are saying?

I am saying that you don't find any culture that views stealing as good.
In other words, you may find a culture that things taking from another is fine ( vikings plundering for example) BUT they don't think that it is good if it happens TO THEM.
No culture has ever said that "when people take what is ours without our permission, this is good".

I see. If you look at my original point; I said:

I think the problem with the claim that stealing is wrong, is the question then becomes; What constitutes stealing? When I commit action “X”, you might call it stealing, whereas I might call it taking what is rightfully mine. That is where the subjectivity comes in.

I think you are making my point.

[PaulSacramento]

No Ken, you are missing the point that stealing - taking what belongs to another without permission is never viewed as good, even if it may be viewed as acceptable or even necessary.
Can you show me one case of a culture, since the beginning of recorded history, where theft is viewed as good?
Every culture has had a penalty for stealing ( even if they at some point they condone stealing from others), hence every culture has viewed stealing is wrong.

[Kenny]

No Ken, you are missing the point that stealing - taking what belongs to another without permission is never viewed as good, even if it may be viewed as acceptable or even necessary.
Can you show me one case of a culture, since the beginning of recorded history, where theft is viewed as good?
Every culture has had a penalty for stealing ( even if they at some point they condone stealing from others), hence every culture has viewed stealing is wrong.

I like this part:

Every culture has had a penalty for stealing ( even if they at some point they condone stealing from others), hence every culture has viewed stealing is wrong.

Do you see a contradiction in that statement? My mama used to say; “actions speak louder than words”. If they condone something, they probably don’t see it as wrong, in spite of what they say.
You defied stealing as taking what belongs to another. If you were to go to the City of Seattle (the city council even) there are plenty of people in Government who feel if you have more, you should give to those who have less; and if you refuse to give to those who have less, the government should take from you and give to those who have less; because equity is far more important than equality. And it isn’t just my city, its many big cities in the USA. If this isn’t the definition you gave for stealing, what do you call it?

[Kurieuo]

Hypothetical Kenny. If you died, then woke up before God who appears to be judging everyone according to their moral conscience, do you think you'd pass? Anticipating your honesty in saying "No", why is it that apparently "your" own morality presses against you and stands against you? Could you change it to be otherwise? If not, then subjective doesn't seem the right term when it really doesn't feel like we could change this morality which so presses up against ourselves even where we wish to ignore it and do otherwise. It's not like we choose it, rather we just seem to have it.

[Kenny]

Hypothetical Kenny. If you died, then woke up before God who appears to be judging everyone according to their moral conscience, do you think you'd pass?

Hypothetically speaking, if I were judged according to your God’s standards, from what I am told; nobody would pass, not even me.

Anticipating your honesty in saying "No", why is it that apparently "your" own morality presses against you and stands against you?

If “morality presses against me and stands against me” means what I think it means, this would only happen if this hypothetical you speak of were true. Also if the hypothetical of everybody being judged by Gods morality were true, under such a hypothetical; such a morality would probably be objective.

Could you change it to be otherwise?

Could I change my own morality? If somebody else's moral ideas were imposed on me, I could change my actions to mirror these imposed rules; though I would still disagree with the moral rules imposed on me

If not, then subjective doesn't seem the right term when it really doesn't feel like we could change this morality which so presses up against ourselves even where we wish to ignore it and do otherwise.

What do you mean when you say “morality pressed against us?” does it man “imposed on us? Perhaps something else? It sounds like you’re using some type of foreign slang that I’m not familiar with. Perhaps you can phrase it differently so I can understand what you mean.

not like we choose it, rather we just seem to have it.

[Kurieuo]

Hypothetical Kenny. If you died, then woke up before God who appears to be judging everyone according to their moral conscience, do you think you'd pass?

Hypothetically speaking, if I were judged according to your God’s standards, from what I am told; nobody would pass, not even me.

Re-read more carefully what I wrote.

[PaulSacramento]

No Ken, you are missing the point that stealing - taking what belongs to another without permission is never viewed as good, even if it may be viewed as acceptable or even necessary.
Can you show me one case of a culture, since the beginning of recorded history, where theft is viewed as good?
Every culture has had a penalty for stealing ( even if they at some point they condone stealing from others), hence every culture has viewed stealing is wrong.

I like this part:

Every culture has had a penalty for stealing ( even if they at some point they condone stealing from others), hence every culture has viewed stealing is wrong.

Do you see a contradiction in that statement? My mama used to say; “actions speak louder than words”. If they condone something, they probably don’t see it as wrong, in spite of what they say.
You defied stealing as taking what belongs to another. If you were to go to the City of Seattle (the city council even) there are plenty of people in Government who feel if you have more, you should give to those who have less; and if you refuse to give to those who have less, the government should take from you and give to those who have less; because equity is far more important than equality. And it isn’t just my city, its many big cities in the USA. If this isn’t the definition you gave for stealing, what do you call it?

I see you don't understand that difference between something being condoned and it be right.

[Kenny]

Hypothetical Kenny. If you died, then woke up before God who appears to be judging everyone according to their moral conscience, do you think you'd pass?

After reading it again; let me give a different answer. Yes of course I would pass! After all, it is my moral conscience that I am being judged by

Ken

[Kurieuo]

Hypothetical Kenny. If you died, then woke up before God who appears to be judging everyone according to their moral conscience, do you think you'd pass?

After reading it again; let me give a different answer. Yes of course I would pass! After all, it is my moral conscience that I am being judged by

Wow, I'm not sure I've met someone who's never had a guilty conscience over doing something wrong.

[Kenny]

No Ken, you are missing the point that stealing - taking what belongs to another without permission is never viewed as good, even if it may be viewed as acceptable or even necessary.
Can you show me one case of a culture, since the beginning of recorded history, where theft is viewed as good?
Every culture has had a penalty for stealing ( even if they at some point they condone stealing from others), hence every culture has viewed stealing is wrong.

I like this part:

Every culture has had a penalty for stealing ( even if they at some point they condone stealing from others), hence every culture has viewed stealing is wrong.

Do you see a contradiction in that statement? My mama used to say; “actions speak louder than words”. If they condone something, they probably don’t see it as wrong, in spite of what they say.
You defied stealing as taking what belongs to another. If you were to go to the City of Seattle (the city council even) there are plenty of people in Government who feel if you have more, you should give to those who have less; and if you refuse to give to those who have less, the government should take from you and give to those who have less; because equity is far more important than equality. And it isn’t just my city, its many big cities in the USA. If this isn’t the definition you gave for stealing, what do you call it?

I see you don't understand that difference between something being condoned and it be right.

I think you are missing my point. My point is, any society that will say stealing (taking something that doesn’t belong to you) is wrong, will make countless exceptions of when taking something that doesn’t belong to you is okay.
Any society that will say killing (ending life) is wrong will make countless exceptions of when taking a life is okay
Any society that will say lying (purposely giving false information) is wrong, will make countless exceptions of when giving false information is okay.
See where this is going? These exceptions are generally going to be based on personal feelings, and extenuating circumstances. That is subjectivity; not objectivity.

Ken

[Kenny]

Hypothetical Kenny. If you died, then woke up before God who appears to be judging everyone according to their moral conscience, do you think you'd pass?

After reading it again; let me give a different answer. Yes of course I would pass! After all, it is my moral conscience that I am being judged by

Wow, I'm not sure I've met someone who's never had a guilty conscience over doing something wrong.

My moral conscience would not require perfection in order to pass. I recognize I am not perfect, and it would be foolish and or cruel to require perfection from an imperfect person

[RickD]

Hypothetical Kenny. If you died, then woke up before God who appears to be judging everyone according to their moral conscience, do you think you'd pass?

After reading it again; let me give a different answer. Yes of course I would pass! After all, it is my moral conscience that I am being judged by

Wow, I'm not sure I've met someone who's never had a guilty conscience over doing something wrong.

My moral conscience would not require perfection in order to pass. I recognize I am not perfect, and it would be foolish and or cruel to require perfection from an imperfect person

It's a good thing that this hypothetical god grades on a curve!