Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

[PaulSacramento]

Scripture does NOT mention what demons are or where they come from.

Where does Scripture indicate they are anything other than the angels that followed Satan in rebellion? And we do know where they originated, as they are created beings. And unless they are fallen angels, then they aren't discussed.

I don't understand what you are stating here...

[RickD]

Scripture does NOT mention what demons are or where they come from.
There are various views ranging from fallen angels to the dead spirits of the nephilim to simply spirits.

I always thought demons was just another name for fallen angels. And a simple google search backs that up.

Where is the origin of demons talked about in the OT or NT?

I'm not sure what you're asking. Assuming that demons are fallen angels, then are you looking for the origin of their fallen state, or the origin of their existence as good angels?

I'm sure you would know the answer in either of these cases.

[DBowling]

Scripture does NOT mention what demons are or where they come from.
There are various views ranging from fallen angels to the dead spirits of the nephilim to simply spirits.

I always thought demons was just another name for fallen angels. And a simple google search backs that up.

Where is the origin of demons talked about in the OT or NT?

We don't have a whole lot of detail about the origin of the demons, but Scripture does drop us some clues.

Revelation 12:3-4

3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. 4 And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.

Revelation 12 indicates that Satan gathered a third of the angels as his followers and they were thrown to the earth.

Jude 1:6

6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,

Jude 1:6 indicates that the fall of Satan's angels involved 'abandoning their proper abode'.

Matthew 12:24-27

24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”
25 And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand? 27 If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out?

In Matthew 12 Jesus refers to Satan's angelic followers as demons.

Matthew 25:41

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

In Matthew 25 Jesus refers to Satan's angelic followers as the devil's 'angels'

So Jesus refers to the angels who abandoned their proper abode to follow Satan as both demons and the devil's angels.

[Philip]

If, as it seems, that Ezekiel 28:12 is also describing Satan (“You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty"), it almost makes for a kind of great influence, thought not determinism. People who are born to great physical beauty and or wealth, so often are vain and filled with pride, arrogant - and as a consequence don't seem to think they need God as their lives seem pretty great. It's almost as if too much of such things is almost a certainty to doom a person to only follow their own narcissism. Whatever the case, Satan wasn't created with horns and a forked tail. Incredible how so many think he is in hell and runs the place.

[PaulSacramento]

Ok...not to be an ass about this guys but nowhere in any of that are fallen angels called demons.
Nowhere does any of that describe the origins of demons.
I mean we can assume a few things and read into them BUT haven't we be warning against do that this whole thread ?

Is there any explicit statement saying: "fallen angels are demons"?
or "angels that rebel are demons"?
And if they are and the rebellion happened at Christ;s birth and reign, as Revelation implies, does that mean there were no demons prior to that?

[RickD]

Ok...not to be an *** about this guys but nowhere in any of that are fallen angels called demons.
Nowhere does any of that describe the origins of demons.
I mean we can assume a few things and read into them BUT haven't we be warning against do that this whole thread ?

Is there any explicit statement saying: "fallen angels are demons"?
or "angels that rebel are demons"?
And if they are and the rebellion happened at Christ;s birth and reign, as Revelation implies, does that mean there were no demons prior to that?

Paul,

I'd think you'd agree that demons are evil spirits, correct?

And unless you know of any other evil spirits(spiritual beings) besides fallen angels, isn't it logical to believe that demons are fallen angels?

Anyways, what does this have to do with what we're discussing?

Where in Revelation does it say that angels rebelled(became fallen) at the birth of Christ?

[DBowling]

Ok...not to be an *** about this guys but nowhere in any of that are fallen angels called demons.

I think I have shown above that Jesus appears to use the terms 'demons' and the devil's 'angels' interchangeably.

And since Jesus appears to use the terms interchangeably, that is my starting point. Unless someone can find a Scripture that differentiates between demons and fallen angels... and there are none.

Nowhere does any of that describe the origins of demons.

I would submit that Rev 12:3-4 and Jude 1:6 do reference the fall of Satan's angels/demons

And nowhere does Scripture provide an alternative origin for demons other than the fall of Satan's angels.

Is there any explicit statement saying: "fallen angels are demons"?

No... but as I noted above, Jesus does appear to use the term demons and the devil's angels interchangeably
And until someone provides a legitimate Scriptural alternative, that's the best I've got to go on.

And if they are and the rebellion happened at Christ;s birth and reign, as Revelation implies, does that mean there were no demons prior to that?

Rev 12:1-4 happens before the birth of Christ.
However, a legitimate argument can be made that Rev 12:7-9 takes place after the birth of Christ.

I do reject the intertestamental tradition that demons are the dead spirits of the Nephilim who were killed in the Flood.
I've read Heiser's claim here, and it relies on the same intertestamental documents as the assertion that "sons of God" in Genesis 6 refers to fallen angels. As I noted earlier, these intertestamental documents (like Enoch) directly contradict Scripture in multiple places and they were written thousands of years after the fact, so they cannot be embraced as reliable sources for historic events that occurred thousands of years before they were written.

The assertion that demons are the spirits of the Nephilim who died in the Flood has the same basic problem as the assertion that "sons of God" in Genesis 6 refers to fallen angels.
Both assertions are a function of intertestamental tradition and neither assertion is supported by Scripture.

[Philip]

Really, getting upset about this debate is rather silly.

Satan is described as a star - the "Morning Star" - Isaiah 14:12: “How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!” (NIV). The KJV and NKJV both translate “morning star” as “Lucifer, son of the morning.” And the rest of the passage refers to Satan’s fall from heaven (Luke 10:18). Revelation 12:4 tells of the rest of the stars that fell with him: "His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth."

Satan himself testifies to where he's been (Job 1:7): "roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it." The NT has quite a few stories of unclean spirit beings and demons being cast out. We know that Satan is here and his fellow fallen angels - as they were "a third" of what that fell: "Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and HIS angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven" (Revelation 12:7-8).

So, what other entities do we know of that were once in of Heaven, cast out, that have been roaming the earth? What Scriptural evidence do we have for believing that some other evil spiritual entities have long been on earth, other than those swept down with the devil? Seems that even questioning that they are not the same is to fit some theorized speculations.

[B. W.]

Ok...not to be an *** about this guys but nowhere in any of that are fallen angels called demons.
Nowhere does any of that describe the origins of demons.
I mean we can assume a few things and read into them BUT haven't we be warning against do that this whole thread ?

Is there any explicit statement saying: "fallen angels are demons"?
or "angels that rebel are demons"?
And if they are and the rebellion happened at Christ;s birth and reign, as Revelation implies, does that mean there were no demons prior to that?

Again, you need to read what the writers of the bible and Peter and Jude knew and understood about this subject. Proper bible study indeed includes the historical aspect of what these folks who wrote the bible knew and read.

They read writings like Enoch as Enoch is quoted in the NT so is the Book of Jubilees and the Book of Jasher. Book of Enoch mentions that demons, according to the traditions of the 2nd Temple era Judaism are the spirits of the Nephilim - the mixed breed of human and angelic beings, left to wonder about the earth as well as in the current hell.

Also writing like Enoch mentions that at least 200 of the leading falling angels were sent to hell - Matt 25:41 - there to await judgment day for the crimes they committed against God and the Human race. However the head Leader was not. He had a scapegoat named Azazel who was sent to hell with the promises that after Satan defeated God, he would be sprung from hell or that at a later time, he could be conjured out of hell to finish the job of corrupting humanity and defeating God. This would involve, creating an offspring to inhabit or have influenced to be part of the plan on earth to defeat God.

Amazingly, the deep occult actually are trying to to do this conjurer up this being or his demon offspring. This offspring is mentioned in the book of Revelation concerning the antichrsit and false prophet.

I find it really tragic that this is not taught in churches today due the the de-supernaturalization of the bible currently en vogue today. Many Christians will not know what will hit them

Yes it is silly to get upset over this as it come to pride - the pride that desires to teach that the supernatural element of the bible is not current because God grew up and stopped his own supernatural dealing with humanity to agree with man's idea of 'normal' and 'rational' wholeheartedly should look like and be.

Basically - that is what this boils down too. Does the supernatural world exist?

God of the bible is a supernatural God who parted the red sea, rained manna from heaven, brought forth water from a rock in the dry desert, made a donkey speak, rained fire out of heaven, sent forth an aspect of trinity nature into humanity to die on a cross to pay the price for our sins, who healed people, cast our demons, calmed the storms, raised from the dead, ascended into heaven, sent forth the Holy Spirit as flames of fire on people, gave an open vision to Peter, called John and Ezekiel into heaven, sent an angel to free Peter from a prison, and the list goes on - such as warning people that we are in a great spiritual war.

Though we believe in a supernatural God who did these things many now say to God, NO, to his supernatural acts today and No to his dealings within history - all due to human pride - period.

What I find interesting is that I must conform to what some folks think who do not know what it means to do proper research and connect the dots that God left us....

"It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out," Pro 25:2 ESV
-
-
-

[PaulSacramento]

Guys, I think we all agree that the bible is full of supernatural events and that the supernatural world is real.
The point I was making it that it seems perfectly find to assume and interpret that fallen angels are demons ( which I have no problem with) even though there is NO explicit statement to that effect BUT it isn't fine to do that with the sons of god in Genesis being fallen angels even though the same line and track is used to get to that conclusion.
Lets be honest here and admit that the notion of fallen angels being demons is from tradition and we are reading it back into the bible ( and that is ok by the way since tradition is to help illuminate the bible).

By the way, in the NT period, the greek term for demons was applied to any incorporeal spirit, regardless of them being good or bad, so the one trait that all demons have would be they are incorporeal spirits.

That said, this is stuff for a different thread for sure.

[PaulSacramento]

Rev 12:1-4 happens before the birth of Christ.
However, a legitimate argument can be made that Rev 12:7-9 takes place after the birth of Christ.

Some interpretations view Rev 12 as the birth of Christ ( others as the analogy for the birth of the church) and if that is so:

The Woman and the Dragon
12 And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule[a] all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.

Satan Thrown Down to Earth
7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. 12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood[c] on the sand of the sea.

As you can see, the fall happens after the ( possible interpretation of ) the birth of Christ.

[DBowling]

Rev 12:1-4 happens before the birth of Christ.
However, a legitimate argument can be made that Rev 12:7-9 takes place after the birth of Christ.

Some interpretations view Rev 12 as the birth of Christ ( others as the analogy for the birth of the church) and if that is so:

The Woman and the Dragon
12 And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule[a] all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.

Satan Thrown Down to Earth
7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. 12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood[c] on the sand of the sea.

As you can see, the fall happens after the ( possible interpretation of ) the birth of Christ.

I believe that the woman is the 'faithful remnant of Israel' and that the male child is Jesus.

Satan sweeping 1/3 of the stars out of heaven takes place in Rev 12:3-4.
The birth of the male child occurs in Rev 12:5.
So the birth of Jesus takes place after the Fall of Satan and his followers.

The sequential relationship between Rev 12:1-2 and Rev 12:3-4 is ambiguous because they describe different signs.
However, the sequence of events of the Rev 12 narrative indicates that Rev 12:3-4 takes place sequentially before Rev 12:5.

[PaulSacramento]

Code: Select all

Satan sweeping 1/3 of the stars out of heaven takes place in Rev 12:3-4.
The birth of the male child occurs in Rev 12:5.
So the birth of Jesus takes place after the Fall of Satan and his followers.

The sequential relationship between Rev 12:1-2 and Rev 12:3-4 is ambiguous because they describe different signs.
However, the sequence of events of the Rev 12 narrative indicates that Rev 12:3-4 takes place sequentially before Rev 12:5.

Hmmm...

So, that fall, the birth and then the war in Heaven?
SO the fall was before the war in which Satan and his angels were cast out?

[abelcainsbrother]

ACB: It contaminated God's creation with hybrids in order to try to prevent the birth of Jesus.

That is about the wackiest comment I've ever seen on G&S! Please tell me how these fallen angels would have read God's mind? The demonic and Satan do not have knowledge of all things as does God. They would have had NO way of knowing that God planned to one day take on human form. What, you think God informed Satan of this plan? REALLY???!!!

They did'nt have to read God's mind and yes God informed Satan. Read Genesis 3:15.After God told Satan this Satan sent fallen angels in Genesis 6 to try to prevent this from happening by producing hybrid giants/Nephilim to contaminate God's creation.

[RickD]

Code: Select all

Satan sweeping 1/3 of the stars out of heaven takes place in Rev 12:3-4.
The birth of the male child occurs in Rev 12:5.
So the birth of Jesus takes place after the Fall of Satan and his followers.

The sequential relationship between Rev 12:1-2 and Rev 12:3-4 is ambiguous because they describe different signs.
However, the sequence of events of the Rev 12 narrative indicates that Rev 12:3-4 takes place sequentially before Rev 12:5.

Hmmm...

So, that fall, the birth and then the war in Heaven?
SO the fall was before the war in which Satan and his angels were cast out?

The war in heaven(verse 7) is a future war, not the war where Satan was thrown out of heaven,originally.