Noah's Flood: when did it occur?

[thatkidakayoungguy]

Since Noah's Flood (as described in Scripture) occurs at the same time and location as the Sumerian deluge described in Mesopotamian literature, I am convinced that the Scriptural account of Noah's Flood and the Sumerian deluge legend are basically referring to the same historical event. (even if the descriptions are not identical).

ExtraScriptural Sumerian literature confirms the Scriptural time and location for Noah's Flood, as occurring in Mesopotamia around 3000 BC.

Genesis 4 (which occurs BEFORE Noah's Flood) describes behavior that took place during the Neolithic Revolution in Mesopotamia, so I don't think a pre Neolithic Revolution date for the Flood is even viable from a Scriptural perspective.

So since internal Scriptural evidence and external extraScriptural evidence from Sumerian history both point to around 3000 BC...
Then I go with sometime around 3000 BC.

There's evidence people farmed much before then...https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 144709.htm
there's a book out somewhere that speculates if farming had been done 40,000 years ago, with apparently evidence to support it.

Even if that is the case, how is that relevant to the timing of Noah's Flood?

Take a quick read through Genesis 4 again.
Do you believe that there is evidence to support the premise that ALL the behavior described in Genesis 4 took place before Mesopotamian Neolithic Revolution?

No, not yet. But enough of it is there to support the premise. The main thing that throws it off is that Tubal Cain is the first to work with Bronze and Iron, though I figured he was just some dude way ahead of his time.

How about Cain building a city?
Is there any evidence of any cities in Mesopotamia prior to 5000 BC?
A study of Genesis 4 and human cultural development in the Levant convinced me that it is Scripturally impossible for Noah to predate the Neolithic Revolution...
... and extremely unlikely that Adam and Eve predated the Neolithic Revolution as well, since Cain built a city in Mesopotamia and the first Mesopotamian cities were built in the 4000 BC to 5000 BC time frame.

Good point, I forgot.
But I do remember a city that existed in or near the Mississippi River Valley 4000 years ago, and it consisted of a bunch of buildings and was a hunter gatherer. It had huts for buildings, surprisingly.
While that isn't entirely relevant, I'm saying it's possible there were cities beforehand.
Of course, you are entitled to your opinion.

[DBowling]

There's evidence people farmed much before then...https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 144709.htm
there's a book out somewhere that speculates if farming had been done 40,000 years ago, with apparently evidence to support it.

Even if that is the case, how is that relevant to the timing of Noah's Flood?

Take a quick read through Genesis 4 again.
Do you believe that there is evidence to support the premise that ALL the behavior described in Genesis 4 took place before Mesopotamian Neolithic Revolution?

No, not yet. But enough of it is there to support the premise. The main thing that throws it off is that Tubal Cain is the first to work with Bronze and Iron, though I figured he was just some dude way ahead of his time.

How about Cain building a city?
Is there any evidence of any cities in Mesopotamia prior to 5000 BC?
A study of Genesis 4 and human cultural development in the Levant convinced me that it is Scripturally impossible for Noah to predate the Neolithic Revolution...
... and extremely unlikely that Adam and Eve predated the Neolithic Revolution as well, since Cain built a city in Mesopotamia and the first Mesopotamian cities were built in the 4000 BC to 5000 BC time frame.

Good point, I forgot.
But I do remember a city that existed in or near the Mississippi River Valley 4000 years ago, and it consisted of a bunch of buildings and was a hunter gatherer. It had huts for buildings, surprisingly.
While that isn't entirely relevant, I'm saying it's possible there were cities beforehand.
Of course, you are entitled to your opinion.

The question at hand becomes...
What evidence are our opinions built on...

I have pointed out the evidence to support my opinion.
1. The cultural behaviors described in Genesis 4 indicate that the Flood took place after the Mesopotamian Neolithic Revolution.
2. The Mesopotamian deluge legends match the time and location of the Scriptural account of Noah's Flood.

You have acknowledged that there is 'not yet' evidence to support the premise that All of the behaviors described in Genesis 4 took place prior to the Neolithic Revolution.
Based on your response to my post I think you are agreeing that there is no evidence of Mesopotamian cities prior to 5000 BC.
So let me ask this question...
What Scriptural or archaeological evidence is leading you to your opinion that Noah's Flood took place before the Mesopotamian Neolithic Revolution?

[RickD]

What books or writers inspired you to become an OEC?

I think the first book that inspired me was A Biblical Case For An Old Earth, by David Snoke.

And believe it or not, when I reread The Genesis Flood, by Henry Morris, it got me to study OEC more, because I saw how Morris misrepresented what Old Earth Creationists actually believed. So, more than any old earth book, certain young earth creationists themselves, drove me away from YEC.

And of course I loved A Matter of Days, by Hugh Ross.

[thatkidakayoungguy]

DBowling, that the races we have today have spread out over the past 60K years mostly, and with the Neanderthal and Denisovan subspecies mixing with our subspecies, but not all of our subspecies.

[thatkidakayoungguy]

There are genetic markers such as through MtDNA as well as archaeological sites that help support the migration of humanity.

[Jasonf8676]

What books or writers inspired you to become an OEC?

I think the first book that inspired me was A Biblical Case For An Old Earth, by David Snoke.

And believe it or not, when I reread The Genesis Flood, by Henry Morris, it got me to study OEC more, because I saw how Morris misrepresented what Old Earth Creationists actually believed. So, more than any old earth book, certain young earth creationists themselves, drove me away from YEC.

And of course I loved A Matter of Days, by Hugh Ross.

David Snoke's book was an influence in my life, too. How ironic that YECs drove you to OEC!
I didn't discover Reasons To Believe until a few years later.

[Jasonf8676]

Why 300,000 years ago? I'm interested in how you came to that conclusion.

The evidence that the modern races came and started spreading around 50-90K, our subspecies started at about 200K, and the fact that the Neanderthal and Denisovan subspecies mixed with some of our races would indicate they're human, imo. They both came around at least 3-400K years ago. Actually, I wouldn't say 300K is when the flood happened (which was a supernatural event, so we don't need evidence from fossils and rocks), but just sometime in the distant past.
Also, it wouldn't surprise me if there has been different civilizations that have been lost-as Genesis and other ancient stories say- complete with cities and farming, such as Enoch and Babel. I mean, Neanderthals had the intelligence of early modern humans, it's possible they farmed, though highly unlikely due to the climate most of them lived in, for example.
So, ultimately, I let science teach what it teaches and Scripture teach what it teaches.
There are many ways to get around the two.

Would I be correct in saying that you believe modern humans (homo sapiens sapiens) descended from Neanderthals?
Also, I have a theory (for now) that the Flood happened ~13,000 years ago, with modern humans (Adam and Eve, etc.) starting around 40,000--45,000 years ago, from the archaeological evidence I've been able to dig up in online journals and articles (pun intended)

[DBowling]

DBowling, that the races we have today have spread out over the past 60K years mostly, and with the Neanderthal and Denisovan subspecies mixing with our subspecies, but not all of our subspecies.

Ok... but I ask again... what does that have to do with the timing of Noah's Flood?

What Scriptural evidence do you believe indicates that Noah's Flood occurred before the Neolithic Revolution?
What extraScriptural evidence do you believe indicates that Noah's Flood occurred before the Neolithic Revolution?

[thatkidakayoungguy]

Why 300,000 years ago? I'm interested in how you came to that conclusion.

The evidence that the modern races came and started spreading around 50-90K, our subspecies started at about 200K, and the fact that the Neanderthal and Denisovan subspecies mixed with some of our races would indicate they're human, imo. They both came around at least 3-400K years ago. Actually, I wouldn't say 300K is when the flood happened (which was a supernatural event, so we don't need evidence from fossils and rocks), but just sometime in the distant past.
Also, it wouldn't surprise me if there has been different civilizations that have been lost-as Genesis and other ancient stories say- complete with cities and farming, such as Enoch and Babel. I mean, Neanderthals had the intelligence of early modern humans, it's possible they farmed, though highly unlikely due to the climate most of them lived in, for example.
So, ultimately, I let science teach what it teaches and Scripture teach what it teaches.
There are many ways to get around the two.

Would I be correct in saying that you believe modern humans (homo sapiens sapiens) descended from Neanderthals?
Also, I have a theory (for now) that the Flood happened ~13,000 years ago, with modern humans (Adam and Eve, etc.) starting around 40,000--45,000 years ago, from the archaeological evidence I've been able to dig up in online journals and articles (pun intended)

No, though both subspecies had fertile children (apparently infertile ones as well). We seem to have a common ancestor who's called archaic Homo Sapiens, or Homo Heidelbergensis, who looked sort of like Neanderthals but they were on average taller than both of us.
Genetic evidence shows Adam and Eve had to live at least 200K years ago. The oldest ethnicity still around is the San of South Africa at a whopping 195K years. The oldest culture still around, though, is the Australian Aborigine, at about 40-60K years.

[thatkidakayoungguy]

DBowling, that the races we have today have spread out over the past 60K years mostly, and with the Neanderthal and Denisovan subspecies mixing with our subspecies, but not all of our subspecies.

Ok... but I ask again... what does that have to do with the timing of Noah's Flood?

What Scriptural evidence do you believe indicates that Noah's Flood occurred before the Neolithic Revolution?
What extraScriptural evidence do you believe indicates that Noah's Flood occurred before the Neolithic Revolution?

We can trace the races, that are still here, to that time I mentioned.
So, Noah and the dispersal at Babel had to be at least that long ago.
I will ask you a question: if Noah and the flood happened 3000BC, then what about the millions of people alive at that time?
Sure, in the mid Ice Age there were more than 8 people, which is why I don't exactly pinpoint a date down. Plus with the idea that it was a miraculous event that 8 chosen people could repopulate earth, it is easier to say they were around that far back since there is less evidence of human habitation. 3000BC there was cities that still exist, civilizations and cultures that still exist. Writing was even around.
Fyi, good evidence shows boat use was around at that time, even Homo Erectus made simple boats or rafts.

[DBowling]

DBowling, that the races we have today have spread out over the past 60K years mostly, and with the Neanderthal and Denisovan subspecies mixing with our subspecies, but not all of our subspecies.

Ok... but I ask again... what does that have to do with the timing of Noah's Flood?

What Scriptural evidence do you believe indicates that Noah's Flood occurred before the Neolithic Revolution?
What extraScriptural evidence do you believe indicates that Noah's Flood occurred before the Neolithic Revolution?

We can trace the races, that are still here, to that time I mentioned.
So, Noah and the dispersal at Babel had to be at least that long ago.

I think the issue here revolves around the meaning of the Hebrew word 'erets'.

When we see the English word earth in the Bible, we (based on our cultural perspective) tend to think of the whole planet earth.
However, the Hebrew 'erets' which is translated 'earth' in Genesis 10 and 11 also means 'land'.
As a thought experiment read through Genesis 10 and 11 and mentally substitute the word 'land' for 'earth'.
See if that gives a different perspective to what is going on in Gen 10:32 and Gen 11:1-9.

While you are in Genesis 11, how about a quick math experiment.
In Genesis 11:10-26 we have the genealogy from Noah's son, Shem to Abraham.

According to Gen 11 how many years passed between the time of Shem and the time of Abraham?
When do you think Shem lived?
When do you think Abraham lived?
Do you see the problem?

I will ask you a question:

Fair enough

if Noah and the flood happened 3000BC, then what about the millions of people alive at that time?

Well getting back to the flood itself, if you try the thought experiment I mentioned above and substitute 'land' where you see 'earth' in Gen 6-8, you will get a more accurate understanding of the Scriptural scope of Noah's Flood.

If you haven't read it, I would highly recommend the following article by Rich Deem.
The Genesis Flood - Why the Bible Says It Must be Local
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... flood.html

Bottom line...
Scripture doesn't claim that Noah's Flood covered the whole planet
Scripture doesn't claim that Noah's Flood wiped out all of humanity.
Scripture doesn't claim that all the races are descended from Noah.
Scripture does claim that Noah's Flood wiped out all the people 'in the land'.
And the geographical context of Genesis 2-9 (Tigris, Euphrates, Ararat) tells us that 'the land' in question is the Land of Mesopotamia.

If we understand that 'erets' = 'the land' and not the whole planet, then there is no need to presume that Noah's Flood predated the Neolithic Revolution, and the Scriptural conflicts with Genesis 4 and Genesis 11:10-26 disappear.

[DBowling]

What books or writers inspired you to become an OEC?

I think the first book that inspired me was A Biblical Case For An Old Earth, by David Snoke.

And believe it or not, when I reread The Genesis Flood, by Henry Morris, it got me to study OEC more, because I saw how Morris misrepresented what Old Earth Creationists actually believed. So, more than any old earth book, certain young earth creationists themselves, drove me away from YEC.

And of course I loved A Matter of Days, by Hugh Ross.

I was also raised and educated in a Young Earth environment.

The following books by Hugh Ross were key to my transition from Young Earther to the Old Earth position.
Creation and Time
A Matter of Days
Navigating Genesis

However, I do currently have significant disagreements with Ross on issues regarding Anthropology, Adam and Eve, and Noah.
The following two books have played a significant role in my current understanding of the Historical Adam and Eve, and Noah.
Legend The Genesis of Civilisation by David Rohl
Historical Genesis From Adam to Abraham by Richard Fischer

[Jasonf8676]

What books or writers inspired you to become an OEC?

I think the first book that inspired me was A Biblical Case For An Old Earth, by David Snoke.

And believe it or not, when I reread The Genesis Flood, by Henry Morris, it got me to study OEC more, because I saw how Morris misrepresented what Old Earth Creationists actually believed. So, more than any old earth book, certain young earth creationists themselves, drove me away from YEC.

And of course I loved A Matter of Days, by Hugh Ross.

I was also raised and educated in a Young Earth environment.

The following books by Hugh Ross were key to my transition from Young Earther to the Old Earth position.
Creation and Time
A Matter of Days
Navigating Genesis

However, I do currently have significant disagreements with Ross on issues regarding Anthropology, Adam and Eve, and Noah.
The following two books have played a significant role in my current understanding of the Historical Adam and Eve, and Noah.
Legend The Genesis of Civilisation by David Rohl
Historical Genesis From Adam to Abraham by Richard Fischer

One of the reviews of Richard Fischer's book on Amazon says that Fischer claims that Adam wasn't the original progenitor of the human race, and that, although modern humans did originate 50,000 years ago, that Adam didn't appear until 6,000 years ago. Do you believe this?

[DBowling]

What books or writers inspired you to become an OEC?

I think the first book that inspired me was A Biblical Case For An Old Earth, by David Snoke.

And believe it or not, when I reread The Genesis Flood, by Henry Morris, it got me to study OEC more, because I saw how Morris misrepresented what Old Earth Creationists actually believed. So, more than any old earth book, certain young earth creationists themselves, drove me away from YEC.

And of course I loved A Matter of Days, by Hugh Ross.

I was also raised and educated in a Young Earth environment.

The following books by Hugh Ross were key to my transition from Young Earther to the Old Earth position.
Creation and Time
A Matter of Days
Navigating Genesis

However, I do currently have significant disagreements with Ross on issues regarding Anthropology, Adam and Eve, and Noah.
The following two books have played a significant role in my current understanding of the Historical Adam and Eve, and Noah.
Legend The Genesis of Civilisation by David Rohl
Historical Genesis From Adam to Abraham by Richard Fischer

One of the reviews of Richard Fischer's book on Amazon says that Fischer claims that Adam wasn't the original progenitor of the human race, and that, although modern humans did originate 50,000 years ago, that Adam didn't appear until 6,000 years ago. Do you believe this?

Yes... and I believe that Scripture also agrees with this...
Or I guess the more appropriate way to phrase it is I agree with Scripture.

I've made extensive posts on the Scriptural support for this position on these boards.
To summarize.
1. Scripture never claims that Adam and Eve are the genetic progenitors of the human race.
Scripture does claim that Adam and Eve are the first humans to have relationship with God, and they are the genetic progenitors of God's covenant people.
2. If Genesis 1 and 2 are read sequentially (and there are textual reasons to believe that they should be), Scripture indicates that humans existed before Adam and Eve (ie Gen 1:26-27 takes place sequentially before Genesis 2:7). And there are indicators that there were other humans at the time of Adam and Eve who are not identified as descendants of Adam and Eve, the most famous being Cain's wife.

Here are a couple of links where Michael Heiser explores the Scriptural claims regarding this issue.
http://drmsh.com/genesis-13-face-compat ... -research/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmvWnqijFs0

[Philip]

I, like Heiser, see the possibilities between the wording of the text, the questions of Genesis 1 and 2. But what should we make of these verses, IF the text is saying there were pre-Adamic men?

Genesis 3: 20: "The man called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living."

Of course, this is written by Moses looking back in time, and post flood - which would make the statement true of all people living at the time Moses wrote the text - as he's looking back in time. It doesn't say, ALL people ever to live came from Eve - at least not explicitly.

And this one - Romans 5:12-21: "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned."

What WORLD is Moses speaking of - the world existing since the flood, through Adam's line, that also would have encompassed all people in Noah's day? And certainly any men existing before Adam would have sinned.

There is also the question of the scale of the flood - did it only wipe out humanity in that ancient Mesopotamian region, or was a greater humanity spared?

So, is it an English translation issue, in that, upon creating (pre-Adam?) humanity in Genesis 1, God refers to them as man, and yet, in Genesis 5 (as it refers to Adam's line), the text reveals that God also (just happened to?) name them "man?"

Genesis 1:26-27: " Then God said, o "Let us make man 8 in our image, p after our likeness. And q let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
r male and female he created them."

Genesis 5:2: "1This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. 2 Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man[a] when they were created."

There are many mysteries to all of this. There's the apparent continuity of civilizations far outside of ancient Mesopotamia, in which even a generous padding of missing people in the line of the genealogies given of Christ line, doesn't seem reconcilable.

All I know is, SOMEHOW, the text is true.