There is no Hope without Jesus

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
Kenny
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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Post by Kenny »

RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
There is a difference between not believing in God vs believing God doesn’t exist.
I'd love to hear what the difference is.

Would that be the same as saying there's a difference between not believing in the tooth fairy vs believing the tooth fairy doesn't exist?
Not quite. There is a consistent view of what qualifies as the tooth fairy; the same cannot be said for God. The reality is; different people will bring a different concept of God to the table and unless I know what concept they are bringing, I have no business claiming it doesn't exist! You gotta describe what you are calling God before I can tell you if I believe it exists or not; otherwise the best I can do is tell you whatever it is you call God; I do not. Does that make sense to you?
I don't see how that explains the difference between not believing in God, and believing God doesn't exist. Since you made the assertion, I'll let you define God. For the sake of this particular discussion, you don't even need to tell me your definition of God. While thinking to yourself, your definition of God, tell me the difference between not believing in God vs believing God doesn’t exist.

Maybe that will help me understand.
I recognize what you may choose to call God may indeed exist. Just because I may know he exist doesn’t mean I believe in him (believing in him means to believe what is claimed about him)
In theory, I could believe Yahweh exists, but if I don’t believe he is God; (perhaps I think he is an evolved being from another planet) I am atheist towards the God of the bible.
think of it this way; Halle Selassie is worshipped as a God in the Rastafarian religion. You may know him as the ex president of Ethiopia. You know what Rastafarians call God existed, even though you don't call him God.
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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Post by RickD »

Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
There is a difference between not believing in God vs believing God doesn’t exist.
I'd love to hear what the difference is.

Would that be the same as saying there's a difference between not believing in the tooth fairy vs believing the tooth fairy doesn't exist?
Not quite. There is a consistent view of what qualifies as the tooth fairy; the same cannot be said for God. The reality is; different people will bring a different concept of God to the table and unless I know what concept they are bringing, I have no business claiming it doesn't exist! You gotta describe what you are calling God before I can tell you if I believe it exists or not; otherwise the best I can do is tell you whatever it is you call God; I do not. Does that make sense to you?
I don't see how that explains the difference between not believing in God, and believing God doesn't exist. Since you made the assertion, I'll let you define God. For the sake of this particular discussion, you don't even need to tell me your definition of God. While thinking to yourself, your definition of God, tell me the difference between not believing in God vs believing God doesn’t exist.

Maybe that will help me understand.
I recognize what you may choose to call God may indeed exist. Just because I may know he exist doesn’t mean I believe in him (believing in him means to believe what is claimed about him)
In theory, I could believe Yahweh exists, but if I don’t believe he is God; (perhaps I think he is an evolved being from another planet) I am atheist towards the God of the bible.
think of it this way; Halle Selassie is worshipped as a God in the Rastafarian religion. You may know him as the ex president of Ethiopia. You know what Rastafarians call God existed, even though you don't call him God.
Ok. I'm still not seeing a difference. Let's try it this way. Since we're on a Christian board, we'll define God as the God of the Bible. Tell me the difference between not believing in God vs believing God doesn’t exist.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Kenny
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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Post by Kenny »

RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote: I'd love to hear what the difference is.

Would that be the same as saying there's a difference between not believing in the tooth fairy vs believing the tooth fairy doesn't exist?
Not quite. There is a consistent view of what qualifies as the tooth fairy; the same cannot be said for God. The reality is; different people will bring a different concept of God to the table and unless I know what concept they are bringing, I have no business claiming it doesn't exist! You gotta describe what you are calling God before I can tell you if I believe it exists or not; otherwise the best I can do is tell you whatever it is you call God; I do not. Does that make sense to you?
I don't see how that explains the difference between not believing in God, and believing God doesn't exist. Since you made the assertion, I'll let you define God. For the sake of this particular discussion, you don't even need to tell me your definition of God. While thinking to yourself, your definition of God, tell me the difference between not believing in God vs believing God doesn’t exist.

Maybe that will help me understand.
I recognize what you may choose to call God may indeed exist. Just because I may know he exist doesn’t mean I believe in him (believing in him means to believe what is claimed about him)
In theory, I could believe Yahweh exists, but if I don’t believe he is God; (perhaps I think he is an evolved being from another planet) I am atheist towards the God of the bible.
think of it this way; Halle Selassie is worshipped as a God in the Rastafarian religion. You may know him as the ex president of Ethiopia. You know what Rastafarians call God existed, even though you don't call him God.
Ok. I'm still not seeing a difference. Let's try it this way. Since we're on a Christian board, we'll define God as the God of the Bible. Tell me the difference between not believing in God vs believing God doesn’t exist.
To not believe in God:
Whatever claims you make about the God of the bible, I don’t believe them

To believe God doesn’t exist:
I don’t believe the God of the bible exist.
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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Post by RickD »

Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote: Not quite. There is a consistent view of what qualifies as the tooth fairy; the same cannot be said for God. The reality is; different people will bring a different concept of God to the table and unless I know what concept they are bringing, I have no business claiming it doesn't exist! You gotta describe what you are calling God before I can tell you if I believe it exists or not; otherwise the best I can do is tell you whatever it is you call God; I do not. Does that make sense to you?
I don't see how that explains the difference between not believing in God, and believing God doesn't exist. Since you made the assertion, I'll let you define God. For the sake of this particular discussion, you don't even need to tell me your definition of God. While thinking to yourself, your definition of God, tell me the difference between not believing in God vs believing God doesn’t exist.

Maybe that will help me understand.
I recognize what you may choose to call God may indeed exist. Just because I may know he exist doesn’t mean I believe in him (believing in him means to believe what is claimed about him)
In theory, I could believe Yahweh exists, but if I don’t believe he is God; (perhaps I think he is an evolved being from another planet) I am atheist towards the God of the bible.
think of it this way; Halle Selassie is worshipped as a God in the Rastafarian religion. You may know him as the ex president of Ethiopia. You know what Rastafarians call God existed, even though you don't call him God.
Ok. I'm still not seeing a difference. Let's try it this way. Since we're on a Christian board, we'll define God as the God of the Bible. Tell me the difference between not believing in God vs believing God doesn’t exist.
To not believe in God:
Whatever claims you make about the God of the bible, I don’t believe them

To believe God doesn’t exist:
I don’t believe the God of the bible exist.
That's what I thought. No difference. Thanks for explaining Kenny. :D
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Kenny
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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Post by Kenny »

RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote: I don't see how that explains the difference between not believing in God, and believing God doesn't exist. Since you made the assertion, I'll let you define God. For the sake of this particular discussion, you don't even need to tell me your definition of God. While thinking to yourself, your definition of God, tell me the difference between not believing in God vs believing God doesn’t exist.

Maybe that will help me understand.
I recognize what you may choose to call God may indeed exist. Just because I may know he exist doesn’t mean I believe in him (believing in him means to believe what is claimed about him)
In theory, I could believe Yahweh exists, but if I don’t believe he is God; (perhaps I think he is an evolved being from another planet) I am atheist towards the God of the bible.
think of it this way; Halle Selassie is worshipped as a God in the Rastafarian religion. You may know him as the ex president of Ethiopia. You know what Rastafarians call God existed, even though you don't call him God.
Ok. I'm still not seeing a difference. Let's try it this way. Since we're on a Christian board, we'll define God as the God of the Bible. Tell me the difference between not believing in God vs believing God doesn’t exist.
To not believe in God:
Whatever claims you make about the God of the bible, I don’t believe them

To believe God doesn’t exist:
I don’t believe the God of the bible exist.
That's what I thought. No difference. Thanks for explaining Kenny. :D
Really? You don't see the difference between the two? If somebody told me you had an IQ of 140, and I said I don't believe you do, does that equal a belief that you don't exist?
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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Post by RickD »

Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
I recognize what you may choose to call God may indeed exist. Just because I may know he exist doesn’t mean I believe in him (believing in him means to believe what is claimed about him)
In theory, I could believe Yahweh exists, but if I don’t believe he is God; (perhaps I think he is an evolved being from another planet) I am atheist towards the God of the bible.
think of it this way; Halle Selassie is worshipped as a God in the Rastafarian religion. You may know him as the ex president of Ethiopia. You know what Rastafarians call God existed, even though you don't call him God.
Ok. I'm still not seeing a difference. Let's try it this way. Since we're on a Christian board, we'll define God as the God of the Bible. Tell me the difference between not believing in God vs believing God doesn’t exist.
To not believe in God:
Whatever claims you make about the God of the bible, I don’t believe them

To believe God doesn’t exist:
I don’t believe the God of the bible exist.
That's what I thought. No difference. Thanks for explaining Kenny. :D
Really? You don't see the difference between the two? If somebody told me you had an IQ of 140, and I said I don't believe you do, does that equal a belief that you don't exist?
Kenny, the first claim I make about the God of the Bible, is that He is existence. In other words, He exists.

So, you don't believe my claim that's God exists, and you don't believe God exists.

Same thing!
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Kenny
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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Post by Kenny »

Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote: Ok. I'm still not seeing a difference. Let's try it this way. Since we're on a Christian board, we'll define God as the God of the Bible. Tell me the difference between not believing in God vs believing God doesn’t exist.
To not believe in God:
Whatever claims you make about the God of the bible, I don’t believe them

To believe God doesn’t exist:
I don’t believe the God of the bible exist.
That's what I thought. No difference. Thanks for explaining Kenny. :D
Really? You don't see the difference between the two? If somebody told me you had an IQ of 140, and I said I don't believe you do, does that equal a belief that you don't exist?
RickD wrote:Kenny, the first claim I make about the God of the Bible, is that He is existence. In other words, He exists.
Humm…. So because I exist, he is existence? So because you and I exist we are existence? Sounds like improper english to me; but moving along…..
RickD wrote:So, you don't believe my claim that's God exists, and you don't believe God exists.

Same thing!
Sounds like more improper english to me…. my head is starting to hurt; how about if I just take your word for it.
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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Post by RickD »

Kenny wrote:
Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
RickD wrote: Ok. I'm still not seeing a difference. Let's try it this way. Since we're on a Christian board, we'll define God as the God of the Bible. Tell me the difference between not believing in God vs believing God doesn’t exist.
To not believe in God:
Whatever claims you make about the God of the bible, I don’t believe them

To believe God doesn’t exist:
I don’t believe the God of the bible exist.
That's what I thought. No difference. Thanks for explaining Kenny. :D
Really? You don't see the difference between the two? If somebody told me you had an IQ of 140, and I said I don't believe you do, does that equal a belief that you don't exist?
RickD wrote:Kenny, the first claim I make about the God of the Bible, is that He is existence. In other words, He exists.
Humm…. So because I exist, he is existence? So because you and I exist we are existence? Sounds like improper english to me; but moving along…..
RickD wrote:So, you don't believe my claim that's God exists, and you don't believe God exists.

Same thing!
Sounds like more improper english to me…. my head is starting to hurt; how about if I just take your word for it.
No Kenny, it's not improper English to say God is existence, while saying we exist.
Why it's correct to say that God is existence, instead of saying that God exists, is explained beautifully, in layman terms here:
https://cmmorrison.files.wordpress.com/ ... imple1.pdf
I really don't expect that you're going to read it because I really don't think you want to know the truth. But maybe I'm wrong and you will read it.

Just for once, prove me wrong. Show me that you actually want to discuss something as it actually is, instead of what you think it is.

At the very least, you'll learn to understand something before you try to argue against it. And at the most, you'll read one of the best books I've ever read, and you'll be forced to admit the truth about the God who loves you, died for you, and rose from the dead so that you may have eternal life if you believe.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Post by Mallz »

Kenny wrote:
Welcome back my friend! Ya had me worried for a minute; thought you had gone away!
So your idea of God is that which everything else came from? Suppose that which everything came from was not intelligent, conscious, or capable of thought? Would you still call it God? Or does it also have to be good, smart, powerful, etc. etc. and all the other stuff described in the Bible
Haven't gone, just haven't been able to respond. I can be spotty (sorry) and if you feel enough time has past please pm me as a reminder! I don't mean to ignore you, or anyone.
Yes, God could be not intelligent, conscious or capable of thought. And if that is all that God is, then that is God.
Kenny wrote: Something coming from something makes sense to me; something coming from nothing does not.
Something comes from nothing=Atheism, and necessarily so. If people believe something comes from something, they believe in God (w/e it is; including the non-intelligent, non-conscious existence which existence sprouts from).
Kenny wrote: Actually there are 4. Those who believe based off knowledge are Gnostic Theists. This link explains it in a way that I agree with
http://www.neatorama.com/2013/09/25/Ath ... nosticism/
There's too many subsets :p. I prefer to break things down to their basics. I never liked the term 'agnosticism' as it really means 'I don't know enough to have an educated conclusion but I'm honest enough about it', whereas atheism is 'God doesn't exist and I believe I have enough knowledge for that conclusion'. Doubtful atheists are in the same camp as doubtful Christians to me (or doubtful w/e).
Kenny wrote: Where I fall is a bit more complicated. I don’t like the definition of atheism as one who claims God doesn’t exist. There is a difference between not believing in God vs believing God doesn’t exist. There are people as real as you and I who are worshipped as Gods. I don’t see these people as Gods, but it would be foolish to say they don’t exist. IOW I realize what you or others might choose to call God may exist, but because I don’t call it (or anything else) God I am atheist. According to the link, that would probably put me closer to the category of a gnostic atheist.
Can we simplify it? I don't see a difference between 'not believing in God' vs 'believing God doesn't exist'. Belief takes our rational consent, whether or not it's backed by knowledge or fantasy. I'd say you're an atheist if you believe you have enough reasoning (based on knowledge or not) to disbelieve the existence of God. Just because you're open to being wrong, well, doesn't mean much to your position, just your own honesty. From what you describe, it seems you fall into the atheist camp, but you're willing to be proven wrong. But from my position in reality, do you see how I see atheism as a truly small camp that not many people fit into? And it's interesting engaging with what I consider to be a 'real atheist' which is someone who believes something comes from nothing. What I can't get past, is the atheist philosophy because it's so gnostic at the basics of reality and takes great faith. But all this supposes that God is the something (w/e that is), which is what the idea of God should start at, not the identity, yeah?
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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Post by Kurieuo »

RickD wrote:https://cmmorrison.files.wordpress.com/ ... imple1.pdf
I really don't expect that you're going to read it because I really don't think you want to know the truth. But maybe I'm wrong and you will read it.
I'd second that Kenny. Jac did an alright job of trying to explain certain concepts you consider "broken English" (and there is a lot of philosophical terms that can seem that way). You know, don't expect it will change your opinion much, but if you do want to understand what Theists mean when they say God is existence, God is being, God is goodness, etc rather than such attributes being something God possesses, then Jac's little book may help. It is deeper than you might give it credit for.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Post by Kenny »

Kenny wrote:
Welcome back my friend! Ya had me worried for a minute; thought you had gone away!
So your idea of God is that which everything else came from? Suppose that which everything came from was not intelligent, conscious, or capable of thought? Would you still call it God? Or does it also have to be good, smart, powerful, etc. etc. and all the other stuff described in the Bible
Mallz wrote: Haven't gone, just haven't been able to respond. I can be spotty (sorry) and if you feel enough time has past please pm me as a reminder! I don't mean to ignore you, or anyone.
Yes, God could be not intelligent, conscious or capable of thought. And if that is all that God is, then that is God.
So in theory; if the singularity that expanded in what is known as the “Big Bang” was that something that always existed which everything sprouted from, you would consider that God? Fair enough. If it’s non intelligent, conscious, or capable of thought, I may recognize its existence, but I definitely would not call it God.
Kenny wrote: Something coming from something makes sense to me; something coming from nothing does not.
Mallz wrote: Something comes from nothing=Atheism, and necessarily so. If people believe something comes from something, they believe in God (w/e it is; including the non-intelligent, non-conscious existence which existence sprouts from).
That makes no sense to me. How did you come to this conclusion?
Kenny wrote: Actually there are 4. Those who believe based off knowledge are Gnostic Theists. This link explains it in a way that I agree with
http://www.neatorama.com/2013/09/25/Ath ... nosticism/
Mallz wrote: There's too many subsets :p. I prefer to break things down to their basics. I never liked the term 'agnosticism' as it really means 'I don't know enough to have an educated conclusion but I'm honest enough about it', whereas atheism is 'God doesn't exist and I believe I have enough knowledge for that conclusion'. Doubtful atheists are in the same camp as doubtful Christians to me (or doubtful w/e).
I don’t think you and I agree on what it means to be Atheist.
Kenny wrote: Where I fall is a bit more complicated. I don’t like the definition of atheism as one who claims God doesn’t exist. There is a difference between not believing in God vs believing God doesn’t exist. There are people as real as you and I who are worshipped as Gods. I don’t see these people as Gods, but it would be foolish to say they don’t exist. IOW I realize what you or others might choose to call God may exist, but because I don’t call it (or anything else) God I am atheist. According to the link, that would probably put me closer to the category of a gnostic atheist.
Mallz wrote: Can we simplify it? I don't see a difference between 'not believing in God' vs 'believing God doesn't exist'.
To not believe in God:
Whatever claims you make about whatever it is you choose to call God, I don’t believe those claims

To not believe God exist:
Whatever it is you call God, I don’t believe it exist.
Mallz wrote: Belief takes our rational consent, whether or not it's backed by knowledge or fantasy. I'd say you're an atheist if you believe you have enough reasoning (based on knowledge or not) to disbelieve the existence of God.
Which God? Only YOUR God? Atheists don’t believe in any God. To limit atheism to a belief that what is called God doesn’t exist would mean that because there are those who worship the Sun, an atheist would have to deny the Sun exist because someone chooses to call it God. That would be a foolish and impossible position to hold. The reality is; if you don’t believe in God, people will label you atheist.
Mallz wrote: Just because you're open to being wrong, well, doesn't mean much to your position, just your own honesty. From what you describe, it seems you fall into the atheist camp, but you're willing to be proven wrong. But from my position in reality, do you see how I see atheism as a truly small camp that not many people fit into?
From your position, I see atheism as an impossible camp that nobody fits into. But as I said earlier; it seems you and I don’t agree on what it means to be atheist.
Mallz wrote: And it's interesting engaging with what I consider to be a 'real atheist' which is someone who believes something comes from nothing.
Atheists don’t believe something came from nothing, that’s just theistic propaganda. Think about it; if I asked you where did God come from; would you claim he came from nothing? Whatever rules, or laws of nature, reality, etc. that you can break in order to proclaim God didn’t come from nothing; the atheist can break and apply to something that is not God.
Mallz wrote: What I can't get past, is the atheist philosophy because it's so gnostic at the basics of reality and takes great faith.
Oh so there is an atheist philosophy now? And it requires faith? Tell me about it! (*hint* more theistic propaganda)
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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Post by Mallz »

Kenny wrote: So in theory; if the singularity that expanded in what is known as the “Big Bang” was that something that always existed which everything sprouted from, you would consider that God? Fair enough. If it’s non intelligent, conscious, or capable of thought, I may recognize its existence, but I definitely would not call it God.

And what would you call 'it', which is existence (it doesn't have existence, it just is).
Kenny wrote: To not believe in God:
Whatever claims you make about whatever it is you choose to call God, I don’t believe those claims
To not believe God exist:
Whatever it is you call God, I don’t believe it exist.
I'm not sure what you're trying to show here? Atheists believe God doesn't exist, I think we both know that. What distinction are you trying to make and why?
Kenny wrote:Which God? Only YOUR God? Atheists don’t believe in any God. To limit atheism to a belief that what is called God doesn’t exist would mean that because there are those who worship the Sun, an atheist would have to deny the Sun exist because someone chooses to call it God. That would be a foolish and impossible position to hold. The reality is; if you don’t believe in God, people will label you atheist.
My God? What are you talking about now?! How do you not understand that there either is God or is no God? Stop getting caught up in the identity. IF there is a God, it is a God of EVERYTHING and EVERYONE. Atheist denying the sun exists? What nonsense is this? Is the Sun God Kenny? No. Those people who worship the sun are wrong. They aren't worshiping God, but the sun (as we both know). So what game are you playing here?
Kenny wrote: Atheists don’t believe something came from nothing, that’s just theistic propaganda. Think about it; if I asked you where did God come from; would you claim he came from nothing? Whatever rules, or laws of nature, reality, etc. that you can break in order to proclaim God didn’t come from nothing; the atheist can break and apply to something that is not God.

Oh so there is an atheist philosophy now? And it requires faith? Tell me about it! (*hint* more theistic propaganda)
Propaganda? Where are you getting that from? There's a philosophy with everything, that shouldn't be news.. Are you going to say atheism has no philosophy!? Are you going to propose it doesn't take faith to believe in anything? And I don't break anything as the existence of God is self evident, as evident as something comes from something and not nothing. But that's propaganda, right?

Atheism isn't an impossible camp and as I said in our earlier conversations, I've talked to people with that belief. It's just an unreasonable camp. And I don't think many people fit into it. But I also see most people as hypocrites in their own world view and don't think past their day to day activities.

You keep throwing the term God around as if it is a changing definition. It's not. That's part of the point. You don't get to say who God is, I don't, nor anything that came from Existence. Maybe i'll run you through the nothing=atheism conclusion by necessity, but I'm not really encouraged to do so.
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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Post by PaulSacramento »

Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote: Fact; Reality; the opposite of false.
How would you define truth?

Ken
Truth is subjective or objective?
Objective.

K
So no such thing as "your truth" or "their truth", right?
Right.

K

But our opinion of the truth or what we believe to be truth, can change,yes?
PaulSacramento
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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Post by PaulSacramento »

Kenny wrote:
To not believe in God:
Whatever claims you make about whatever it is you choose to call God, I don’t believe those claims
To not believe God exist:
Whatever it is you call God, I don’t believe it exist
I don't think that Kenny understands the issue with the above.
Kenny
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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

Post by Kenny »

PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote: Truth is subjective or objective?
Objective.

K
So no such thing as "your truth" or "their truth", right?
Right.

K

But our opinion of the truth or what we believe to be truth, can change,yes?
Objective truth based on fact doesn't change, but Subjective truth, or what we believe to be true can and often does change.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
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