"You will die in your sins unless you believe that I am

Christian2 · Post by **Christian2** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:56 am

Jesus said:

John 8:21Then He said again to them, "I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come." 22So the Jews were saying, "Surely He will not kill Himself, will He, since He says, 'Where I am going, you cannot come'?" 23And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

Jesus is saying that it necessary to believe that He is "He" in order to have sins forgiven and if we don't, we will die in our sins.

This is a pretty bold statement. Jesus doesn't say, unless you repent, unless you are circumcised, unless you sacrifice an animal, unless you do good works, unless you believe in God, but He said unless you believe that I am "He" we will die in our sins.

Who is "He"? Who does Jesus want us to believe that He is in order to have our sins forgiven?

Thanks.

Kokujin · Post by **Kokujin** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:22 pm

If i'm not mistaken then "He" is LORD.

Jbuza · Post by **Jbuza** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:19 pm

I would say unless you believe that he is the messiah. Unless you belive that he is the Son of God foretold of the ages, than you will die in your sins. Jesus makes numerous claims, and fulfills numerous prophecies that demonstrate that he is the He that is the seed of the Woman that sinned in Eden and the anointed one that David sings about, that is going to take away our sins.

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:02 pm

Jbuza wrote:I would say unless you believe that he is the messiah. Unless you belive that he is the Son of God foretold of the ages, than you will die in your sins. Jesus makes numerous claims, and fulfills numerous prophecies that demonstrate that he is the He that is the seed of the Woman that sinned in Eden and the anointed one that David sings about, that is going to take away our sins.

Yes, exactly. This is the view found in many commentaries and the footnotes of standard modern Bible translations.

Christian2 · Post by **Christian2** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:16 am

Jbuza wrote:I would say unless you believe that he is the messiah. Unless you belive that he is the Son of God foretold of the ages, than you will die in your sins. Jesus makes numerous claims, and fulfills numerous prophecies that demonstrate that he is the He that is the seed of the Woman that sinned in Eden and the anointed one that David sings about, that is going to take away our sins.

The "son of God" is merely a title for the Messiah. It does not necessarily mean divinity. Two titles go hand and hand with the Messiah--"son of God" and "son of Man." I don't think that we can determine Jesus' divinity by the title "son of God." I think we can with "Son of Man." Also, most importantly we learn of Jesus' claim to deity from the claims He made that only God can make. Agree?

Do any of you know what Greek word is used for "He" in these verses--unless you believe that I am "He"? Perhaps it just means "he," but I noticed that some translations capitalize he, for instance:

24"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." NASB

24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” NKJV

The NIV says:

24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins." NIV

I want to sneak in a little question in this thread somewhat unrelated to the verses I sited. I made a comment recently to a Jew and said, "according to Jewish and Christian understanding the expected Messiah would be sent by God to liberate people from the bondage of sin." The Jew is saying, no, that is not true as far as the Jews are concerned. Any comments from anyone on this issue?

Thanks.

Jbuza · Post by **Jbuza** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:24 am

Well if when you say that Jesus is only a man, you mean he is only an eternal man that was with God in the begining and was the creator, and that he will reign on the throne of his father Davd forever, and that you further mean that he knows everything including the hearts of the pharisees, and the thoughts of others he encountered, and yet further you mean that he has the ability to be in more than one place at a time as evidencede by him saying that he is together where two or three gather in his name, or he saw thomas (I think) under the fig tree, and you also mean that he has great power and authority over everything than I can agree.

So we have an eternal all-knowing, all-present, and all-powerful man then?

Christian2 · Post by **Christian2** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:58 pm

I managed to get some input from a person who is working on his Ph.D. in Koine Greek and teaches Greek to graduate students. This is what he said about John 8:24:

******

This is likely one of the most important statements in the gospel of John. In greek, the text reads:

ειπον ουν υμιν οτι αποθανεισθε εν ταις αμαρτιαις υμων εαv γαρ μη πιστευσητε εγω ειμι, αποθανεισθε εν ταις αμαρτιαις

Translation:

Therefore I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you would believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.

Throughout the gospel of John there are many "I am" sayings, some with modifiers (I am the way, 14:6) and some without (here). The I AM sayings always give the reader an insight into who Jesus is (John's Gospel has as its main theme the identity of Jesus). The I AM sayings that are not modified are claims to divinity, a la Exodus. While many of the Jewish scholars say that the ο ων statement is the real claim to divinity (strangely enough, see Rom 9:5; Cor 11:31; Rev 1:4, 8; 4:8; 11:1; 16:5), that is a development that occurs AFTER the claims of the Gospel of John, so it is very much reactionary to the divine claims of Christ in the Bible.

The other issue is, of course, what could it possibly mean if it does not refer to the divinity of Christ?

Nothing. There is no other really plausible explanation.

I AM calls us to believe in I AM.

******

C2

Mystical · Post by **Mystical** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:08 pm

So I AM means Jesus is God? Today I was asked, 'If Jesus was God, why did he ask "Why have you forsaken me?" ' I couldn't answer

Is this the scripture needed to prove he was God? Does "Why have you forsaken me?" hold a meaning we don't understand in Greek?

Believer · Post by **Believer** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:16 pm

Mystical wrote:So I AM means Jesus is God? Today I was asked, 'If Jesus was God, why did he ask "Why have you forsaken me?" ' I couldn't answer Is this the scripture needed to prove he was God? Does "Why have you forsaken me?" hold a meaning we don't understand in Greek?

I just thought of it as something extra the apostles wrote in when they heard Him say that to His Father on the cross as a bonus, mainly for Him to communicate with His father about something and for us not to know exactly what that was. The apostles sure had a good ear.

Cook · Post by **Cook** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:25 pm

Maybe he was comforting himself with the Psalms, and in reciting them to himself as he suffered and weakened, it happened to be one verse loud enough that others heard. This being the fuller context of the comfort.

Mystical · Post by **Mystical** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:32 pm

Thank you so much, Cook. Thank you so very much.

Mystical · Post by **Mystical** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:54 pm

Stumped again...Why would Jesus cry out to God in the garden of Gethsemane (? spelling) if he was God?

Christian 2: Where are those He passages taken from?

Mystical · Post by **Mystical** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:05 pm

Anywhere I can find passages in the bible that demonstrate that Jesus is God?

Christian2 · Post by **Christian2** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:28 am

Mystical,

So I AM means Jesus is God? Today I was asked, 'If Jesus was God, why did he ask "Why have you forsaken me?" ' I couldn't answer Is this the scripture needed to prove he was God? Does "Why have you forsaken me?" hold a meaning we don't understand in Greek?

As mentioned, most scholars believe that Jesus was pointing His listeners to Psalm 22. "My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me" is the first line in that Psalm.

If you read Psalm 22, you will find that it is almost a blue print for Jesus' crucifixion. Also, in those times (and probably now) a Jew only had to say the first verse of a Chapter in their Holy Book and that would bring the whole chapter into the mind of the listener.

Christian 2: Where are those He passages taken from?

John, Chapter 8.

Anywhere I can find passages in the bible that demonstrate that Jesus is God?

One of the most famous is this one:

"John 8:58-59 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple."

"At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds"

Notice a couple things here: First the Jews knew exactly what he said because they picked up stones to kill him. They were quite legalistic in the day and would not have stoned Jesus for claiming to be older than Moses. Second there were crackpots in the day that claimed to be god, Caesar was one. There no doubt many others but the Jews didn't just go around stoning people that claimed to be god they mostly just considered the source. The difference is Jesus actually claimed the personal name God gave Moses. The Audience knew exactly what he said.