The souls of aborted fetuses

[Kurieuo]

Why should we replace it with infanticide?

I take it then that it would change matters for you?

[Kurieuo]

As for why? Because it gets to the heart of what I've been wanting to know from you:

It isn't just waste of potential life, but rather waste of actual life. I think, if that clicked with you really, that a baby inutero was as real a human life as a baby born, that you'd not consider such evil a viable solution. For example, I'm assuming you wouldn't consider infanticide a viable solution to whatever issue you believe is the problem.

[neo-x]

I will respond later, k. Traveling at the moment.

[Nessa]

abortion works for a solution? You say that like a solution couldnt possibly be evil.

A solution is of course to a problem. Consider china, India # Pakistan. Some of the most popultlated countries in the world. In some places abortion is not a choice - choice like it is in the west. Sometimes it is just necessity.

A human being is a person... not a problem

Would you have preferred Hitlers mother had aborted him?
Sometimes human being are problems and there are plenty of exceptions to your statement. I know you mean well by what you said. But at least acknowledge it isn't that simple.

Well, killing a baby before it's committed a crime as an adult, belongs to movies such as 'the minority report'.

Where would it stop... kill all the babies who grow up to rape... torture others... kill...

[Nessa]

The problem is having sex out of wedlock.

[neo-x]

abortion works for a solution? You say that like a solution couldnt possibly be evil.

A solution is of course to a problem. Consider china, India # Pakistan. Some of the most popultlated countries in the world. In some places abortion is not a choice - choice like it is in the west. Sometimes it is just necessity.

A human being is a person... not a problem

Would you have preferred Hitlers mother had aborted him?
Sometimes human being are problems and there are plenty of exceptions to your statement. I know you mean well by what you said. But at least acknowledge it isn't that simple.

Well, killing a baby before it's committed a crime as an adult, belongs to movies such as 'the minority report'.

Where would it stop... kill all the babies who grow up to rape... torture others... kill...

You missed my point. Not all human beings are people who are not problems. Therefore your blanket statement doesn't apply.

Anyway, I have said it before my reasons for why I think abortion can be justified. A few posts before. I don't think its murder.

[neo-x]

The problem is having sex out of wedlock.

That may be a problem. But more so in the west then here. Here abortion in marriages is also a happening. The circumstances and living conditions are very different than it is in the west. Apples and oranges.

[neo-x]

As for why? Because it gets to the heart of what I've been wanting to know from you:

It isn't just waste of potential life, but rather waste of actual life. I think, if that clicked with you really, that a baby inutero was as real a human life as a baby born, that you'd not consider such evil a viable solution. For example, I'm assuming you wouldn't consider infanticide a viable solution to whatever issue you believe is the problem.

K. Of course its life. But it's potential at best. Can you take a 3 month baby out of the womb and treat it as a fully functional normal human being? Of course not because even though its life, it is not completely a person yet. Abortion is not killing a person. The life is human but only in genetics and its potential at best. An 8 week baby is nothing like a person at all. So it is not murder.

I can understand that a really late abortion is not good especially in the last month. Obviously the baby has almost or fully, formed. And that point I would Also think its killing a human baby.

However, such late cases are exceptions rather than norm.

[Stu]

As for why? Because it gets to the heart of what I've been wanting to know from you:

It isn't just waste of potential life, but rather waste of actual life. I think, if that clicked with you really, that a baby inutero was as real a human life as a baby born, that you'd not consider such evil a viable solution. For example, I'm assuming you wouldn't consider infanticide a viable solution to whatever issue you believe is the problem.

K. Of course its life. But it's potential at best. Can you take a 3 month baby out of the womb and treat it as a fully functional normal human being? Of course not because even though its life, it is not completely a person yet. Abortion is not killing a person. The life is human but only in genetics and its potential at best. An 8 week baby is nothing like a person at all. So it is not murder.

I can understand that a really late abortion is not good especially in the last month. Obviously the baby has almost or fully, formed. And that point I would Also think its killing a human baby.

However, such late cases are exceptions rather than norm.

Can a newborn baby fend for itself, feed itself, clean itself, etc. No it can't, so it is nothing like a normal human being, so then according to your logic it shouldn't have the same rights as a normal human being.

And yet a 3 month old baby has a soul - and you are playing judge, jury and God by saying you have the right to kill it because it isn't "human" yet. You don't have that right.

[neo-x]

As for why? Because it gets to the heart of what I've been wanting to know from you:

It isn't just waste of potential life, but rather waste of actual life. I think, if that clicked with you really, that a baby inutero was as real a human life as a baby born, that you'd not consider such evil a viable solution. For example, I'm assuming you wouldn't consider infanticide a viable solution to whatever issue you believe is the problem.

K. Of course its life. But it's potential at best. Can you take a 3 month baby out of the womb and treat it as a fully functional normal human being? Of course not because even though its life, it is not completely a person yet. Abortion is not killing a person. The life is human but only in genetics and its potential at best. An 8 week baby is nothing like a person at all. So it is not murder.

I can understand that a really late abortion is not good especially in the last month. Obviously the baby has almost or fully, formed. And that point I would Also think its killing a human baby.

However, such late cases are exceptions rather than norm.

Can a newborn baby fend for itself, feed itself, clean itself, etc. No it can't, so it is nothing like a normal human being, so then according to your logic it shouldn't have the same rights as a normal human being.

And yet a 3 month old baby has a soul - and you are playing judge, jury and God by saying you have the right to kill it because it isn't "human" yet. You don't have that right.

I recognize that this is a highly sensitive topic for you. But aside from emotional outbursts like I have seen numerous times in this thread from you and some others. There is very little to actually negate the problems third world countries face and why abortion is different an issue than it is in the west. This isn't playing God or murder or anything of that sort but you seem pretty insistent on approaching it with sentimentalism and nothing else. Ground realities matter.

[Stu]

As for why? Because it gets to the heart of what I've been wanting to know from you:

It isn't just waste of potential life, but rather waste of actual life. I think, if that clicked with you really, that a baby inutero was as real a human life as a baby born, that you'd not consider such evil a viable solution. For example, I'm assuming you wouldn't consider infanticide a viable solution to whatever issue you believe is the problem.

K. Of course its life. But it's potential at best. Can you take a 3 month baby out of the womb and treat it as a fully functional normal human being? Of course not because even though its life, it is not completely a person yet. Abortion is not killing a person. The life is human but only in genetics and its potential at best. An 8 week baby is nothing like a person at all. So it is not murder.

I can understand that a really late abortion is not good especially in the last month. Obviously the baby has almost or fully, formed. And that point I would Also think its killing a human baby.

However, such late cases are exceptions rather than norm.

Can a newborn baby fend for itself, feed itself, clean itself, etc. No it can't, so it is nothing like a normal human being, so then according to your logic it shouldn't have the same rights as a normal human being.

And yet a 3 month old baby has a soul - and you are playing judge, jury and God by saying you have the right to kill it because it isn't "human" yet. You don't have that right.

I recognize that this is a highly sensitive topic for you. But aside from emotional outbursts like I have seen numerous times in this thread from you and some others. There is very little to actually negate the problems third world countries face and why abortion is different an issue than it is in the west. This isn't playing God or murder or anything of that sort but you seem pretty insistent on approaching it with sentimentalism and nothing else. Ground realities matter.

Nice way to sidestep everything I just said
Does the Bible matter, what about God's opinion on the subject. It should.

[Storyteller]

As for why? Because it gets to the heart of what I've been wanting to know from you:

It isn't just waste of potential life, but rather waste of actual life. I think, if that clicked with you really, that a baby inutero was as real a human life as a baby born, that you'd not consider such evil a viable solution. For example, I'm assuming you wouldn't consider infanticide a viable solution to whatever issue you believe is the problem.

K. Of course its life. But it's potential at best. Can you take a 3 month baby out of the womb and treat it as a fully functional normal human being? Of course not because even though its life, it is not completely a person yet. Abortion is not killing a person. The life is human but only in genetics and its potential at best. An 8 week baby is nothing like a person at all. So it is not murder.

I can understand that a really late abortion is not good especially in the last month. Obviously the baby has almost or fully, formed. And that point I would Also think its killing a human baby.

However, such late cases are exceptions rather than norm.

When do we become a "person"?
Abortion IS killing a person.
Argue for abortion if you must but I really dont see how you can argue that a baby inutero isnt a person. If theyre not, when do they become one? Are they not given their souls at the point of conception? When do they have their souls, if not at conception? If they have a soul then they are a person.

[neo-x]

As for why? Because it gets to the heart of what I've been wanting to know from you:

K. Of course its life. But it's potential at best. Can you take a 3 month baby out of the womb and treat it as a fully functional normal human being? Of course not because even though its life, it is not completely a person yet. Abortion is not killing a person. The life is human but only in genetics and its potential at best. An 8 week baby is nothing like a person at all. So it is not murder.

I can understand that a really late abortion is not good especially in the last month. Obviously the baby has almost or fully, formed. And that point I would Also think its killing a human baby.

However, such late cases are exceptions rather than norm.

Can a newborn baby fend for itself, feed itself, clean itself, etc. No it can't, so it is nothing like a normal human being, so then according to your logic it shouldn't have the same rights as a normal human being.

And yet a 3 month old baby has a soul - and you are playing judge, jury and God by saying you have the right to kill it because it isn't "human" yet. You don't have that right.

I recognize that this is a highly sensitive topic for you. But aside from emotional outbursts like I have seen numerous times in this thread from you and some others. There is very little to actually negate the problems third world countries face and why abortion is different an issue than it is in the west. This isn't playing God or murder or anything of that sort but you seem pretty insistent on approaching it with sentimentalism and nothing else. Ground realities matter.

Nice way to sidestep everything I just said
Does the Bible matter, what about God's opinion on the subject. It should.

Whatever you said is irrelevant to my argument. That is why I didn't address it.

[neo-x]

As for why? Because it gets to the heart of what I've been wanting to know from you:

It isn't just waste of potential life, but rather waste of actual life. I think, if that clicked with you really, that a baby inutero was as real a human life as a baby born, that you'd not consider such evil a viable solution. For example, I'm assuming you wouldn't consider infanticide a viable solution to whatever issue you believe is the problem.

K. Of course its life. But it's potential at best. Can you take a 3 month baby out of the womb and treat it as a fully functional normal human being? Of course not because even though its life, it is not completely a person yet. Abortion is not killing a person. The life is human but only in genetics and its potential at best. An 8 week baby is nothing like a person at all. So it is not murder.

I can understand that a really late abortion is not good especially in the last month. Obviously the baby has almost or fully, formed. And that point I would Also think its killing a human baby.

However, such late cases are exceptions rather than norm.

When do we become a "person"?
Abortion IS killing a person.
Argue for abortion if you must but I really dont see how you can argue that a baby inutero isnt a person. If theyre not, when do they become one? Are they not given their souls at the point of conception? When do they have their souls, if not at conception? If they have a soul then they are a person.

You tell me when they are given a soul? You seem to know something no on else does.
My argument has nothing to do with a soul. Even an enemy soldier has a soul yet nothing seems wrong in killing him. Having a soul isn't an issue. I am talking about cases where abortions are justified. It has nothing to be human or having a soul.

[Stu]

As for why? Because it gets to the heart of what I've been wanting to know from you:

It isn't just waste of potential life, but rather waste of actual life. I think, if that clicked with you really, that a baby inutero was as real a human life as a baby born, that you'd not consider such evil a viable solution. For example, I'm assuming you wouldn't consider infanticide a viable solution to whatever issue you believe is the problem.

K. Of course its life. But it's potential at best. Can you take a 3 month baby out of the womb and treat it as a fully functional normal human being? Of course not because even though its life, it is not completely a person yet. Abortion is not killing a person. The life is human but only in genetics and its potential at best. An 8 week baby is nothing like a person at all. So it is not murder.

I can understand that a really late abortion is not good especially in the last month. Obviously the baby has almost or fully, formed. And that point I would Also think its killing a human baby.

However, such late cases are exceptions rather than norm.

When do we become a "person"?
Abortion IS killing a person.
Argue for abortion if you must but I really dont see how you can argue that a baby inutero isnt a person. If theyre not, when do they become one? Are they not given their souls at the point of conception? When do they have their souls, if not at conception? If they have a soul then they are a person.

You tell me when they are given a soul? You seem to know something no on else does.
My argument has nothing to do with a soul. Even an enemy soldier has a soul yet nothing seems wrong in killing him.

You've lost it and thrown logic out the window if that is your argument.

Having a soul isn't an issue. I am talking about cases where abortions are justified. It has nothing to be human or having a soul.

Of course having a soul is an issue! And of course being human is an issue!
You are clearly arguing from an atheist's/evolutionist's perspective which is why you are coming up against so many opposing opinions.

When are abortions justified again? I'm really keen to find out...