The Old Testament Concept of God

[Kurieuo]

I have a post here, in the amputee thread. http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 07#p232526

Really we're not that similar at all to chimps. Of course there are things in common, however. But if you're suggesting we don't have a choice to rise above our animalistic instrict, to choose love rather than hate, then I'd say you're going against common intuition.

[thatkidakayoungguy]

I have a post here, in the amputee thread. http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 07#p232526

Really we're not that similar at all to chimps. Of course there are things in common, however. But if you're suggesting we don't have a choice to rise above our animalistic instrict, to choose love rather than hate, then I'd say you're going against common intuition.

No, I'm just making an observation.
Of course humans can overcome their animalistic desires.

[B. W.]

...I agree now, but the rebuttal some have of why would God allow and cause so much death to happen, well as you said those unsaved humans were enemies, and with the saved it is either a byproduct of being in this world and/or a way for God to discipline or strengthen us...

I am not sure any answer would satisfy closed minds deceived to believe how open minded they are.

To prevent death, then there would be no need to create Adam and Eve or angels. God could have done that, but part of his nature is Creator. He cannot deny Himself.

If he created unjustly then he is not a just God and a just God would indeed create humanity with free moral will as well as angelic beings too as he lives true to being all powerful, after all, what would he be afraid of?

To create humanity, without that free moral will would make God unjust, unrighteous, and most definitely not at all - all powerful. He would not be - God.

Militant Atheist bemoan the loss of free moral will if God took it away and at the same time hate the idea of God having people have a free moral will to create their own evil. Then seek to blame God for being unjust for both granting free moral will or not granting it.

Best approach, is to pray for such folks that in life they encounter the real presence of God as God wills. It is only such an encounter that will open their eyes.

Back to why evil - Ravi Zacharias, C. S Lewis, and others like them have given the best answers into this than I can here. Suggest you brush up on what they say about this matter and use that to sow seeds for the encounter of the Lord you pray for them to have happen. Maybe you need that as well... so let in be so in Jesus name, amen.
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[PaulSacramento]

but the rebuttal some have of why would God allow and cause so much death to happen,

I would ask why would He NOT allow it?

[mrtzur2015]

Post 1

Old Testament and the Trinity: The Old Testament Concept of God

Back during the early 1980's as a new Christian, I discovered that the Old Testament (OT) used several Hebrew words in the bible for God such as Elohim, Yahweh, Eloah and El. These Hebrew words were translated into English as either God or Lord. So as an experiment in bible reading, with no agenda to prove anything, I began reading through the Old Testament one book at a time, accompanied with a Strongs Concordance and began marking these words with circles whenever Elohim, Yahweh, and El was translated into God or Lord.

I color coded these so I could see which of these Hebrew words for God was used. A blue ink circle was around Eloah and Yaweh. Elohim was circled in orange and El circled in brown. I did the same for the word lord — adoni whenever these were used denoting God. After doing this, I was amazed at what I was reading.

As I began to study ancient Hebrew, I discovered that there were variations of the spellings for the words that were translated God in the OT such as haElohim along with the uses of personal pronouns (I, us, my, me, thy, thine, and the use of I am) and other words associated or attached to these Hebrew words for God (such as El-yon - God Most High, El Shaddai, Yahweh Elohim, Malek Yahweh, Ruach, Panim etc) This caused me to add highlighted colors inside the oblong circles in various ways to identify these quickly.

Along with this came learning of basic Hebrew grammar and - wow - I discovered, by accident, that the Old Testament, in its usages of these words described God in complete Trinitarian terms. In other words, God was revealing that there 'is' truly and absolutely none like him!

Isaiah 46:9. Remember the former things of old: that I am God (EL), and there is none else; I am God (Elohim), and there is none like Me... JPS

Jeremiah 10:6, There is none like unto Thee, O LORD (Yahweh); Thou art great, and Thy name is great in might. JPS

Psalms 86:8, There is none like unto Thee among the gods, O Lord (Adonai), and there are no works like Thine. JPS

I discovered and began seeing Jesus within the pages of the OT speaking as well as the Father and Holy Spirit. I saw that Moses understood this as well as the Patriarchs. After doing this color coded method, I am still amazed when I read the OT, how it reveals God as One essence in three persons! Truly there is none like the Lord!!

So, the purpose here of this series is to share with the reader a few of my findings. This will be a study on the Jewish Trinity of God as revealed in the OT. I know that there are those that when they hear the word 'Trinity' mentioned, they desire nothing more than to attack it with venom.

If that is you, then I suggest that before you do, please use the color coded method for the names of God that I used (this will take 6 months to a year to complete) within the OT. Sit back, and look at what I write with unbiased innocence keeping your thoughts to yourself.

I will warn you in advance, as a moderator on this Forum,I will delete any rabbit trail postings.

I will do this for one reason - so this thread does not become Locked as others have on this subject. If you would but listen and read-many of your objection will answered without you saying a thing or my having to directly address them. Such is the power of the Word of God (Malek Yahweh ha-EL Shaddai)

So for the reader...

May...

(Yahweh) The LORD bless thee, and keep thee;
(Yahweh) The LORD make His face (Panim) to shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee;
(Yahweh) The LORD lift up His countenance (Panim) upon thee, and give thee peace.
So shall they put My name upon the children of Israel, and I will bless them.'

Numbers 6:24-27 - JPS
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Post Script:

Please note Matthew 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit""

I can confirm . I am Jewish born and raised in Israel all my life. Hebrew is my first language. There are many examples of Gods trinity in the Old Testament one of the most famous hear o Israel yeuvah Elohim yehuvah is one ( three mentions one God head)
Many of them in psalms as well that the holy direct has revelead to me while reading and I was amazed to find out that David knew about the trinity.
Trinity is not a new concept of the New Testament.

[B. W.]

I can confirm . I am Jewish born and raised in Israel all my life. Hebrew is my first language. There are many examples of Gods trinity in the Old Testament one of the most famous hear o Israel yeuvah Elohim yehuvah is one ( three mentions one God head)
Many of them in psalms as well that the holy direct has revelead to me while reading and I was amazed to find out that David knew about the trinity.
Trinity is not a new concept of the New Testament.

Thank you for the confirmation Mrtzur!

The Shema, Deut 6:4, is another of those verses and King David had that understanding as well as the Psalms he penned attest too.

Mitzur, Which Psalms stands out the most to you on this?
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[mrtzur2015]

I can confirm . I am Jewish born and raised in Israel all my life. Hebrew is my first language. There are many examples of Gods trinity in the Old Testament one of the most famous hear o Israel yeuvah Elohim yehuvah is one ( three mentions one God head)
Many of them in psalms as well that the holy direct has revelead to me while reading and I was amazed to find out that David knew about the trinity.
Trinity is not a new concept of the New Testament.

Thank you for the confirmation Mrtzur!

The Shema, Deut 6:4, is another of those verses and King David had that understanding as well as the Psalms he penned attest too.

Mitzur, Which Psalms stands out the most to you on this?
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well there are couple, the one Jesus himself mentioned was Psalm 110 which says The Lord spoke to my Lord meaning the father has spoken to the son our Lord

another one that i found out was in Psalm 51
David is crying to the father about his sin yet his calling out Please do not take thy Holy Spirit from me (so we can learn there is the Father and his Spirit is a different person)

Psalm 20 says : now i know that the Lord saveth his annoited one. (hebrew yauvah saves his Messiah)
the Messiah has to be God for the forgiveness of sin (we sin against God, therefore only God can forgive us)

the two that the Holy Spirit showed me after reading these a couple of times he reveled this to me and i was amazed

Psalm 30 says to Yehuvah i will call and to my lord i will make supplecations ( in hebrew Yahuvah and Adonai)
Psalm 24 says he will recieve a blessing from Yehuvah and righteousness from the God of his Salvation

the interesting part is that we read these so many times and only when the Holy Spirit decides to reveal something to us we finally understand
I never saw the trinity in the old testament before i came to know Yeshua (Jesus).


I can share something else, that I dont know how many of you know about this
in Gensis it says In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. and that the spirit of God is hovering over the waters (Emptiness) in the hebrew Bereshit it says God created et ashamaim ve et aaretz (heavens and earth) but the second ET is meaning less (could says God created et ashameim ve aaretz) this second ET is Yeshua and Gods whole plan of salvation (Yeshua is the Aleph Tav (ET) and in ancient hebrew Aleph is drown like a ox head which means God and tav drawn like a cross So God would die on the Cross.

this will explain better:
[youtube]https://youtu.be/_0GsgXlxAKo[/youtube]

[B. W.]

I can confirm . I am Jewish born and raised in Israel all my life. Hebrew is my first language. There are many examples of Gods trinity in the Old Testament one of the most famous hear o Israel yeuvah Elohim yehuvah is one ( three mentions one God head)
Many of them in psalms as well that the holy direct has revelead to me while reading and I was amazed to find out that David knew about the trinity.
Trinity is not a new concept of the New Testament.

Thank you for the confirmation Mrtzur!

The Shema, Deut 6:4, is another of those verses and King David had that understanding as well as the Psalms he penned attest too.

Mitzur, Which Psalms stands out the most to you on this?

well there are couple, the one Jesus himself mentioned was Psalm 110 which says The Lord spoke to my Lord meaning the father has spoken to the son our Lord

another one that i found out was in Psalm 51

David is crying to the father about his sin yet his calling out Please do not take thy Holy Spirit from me (so we can learn there is the Father and his Spirit is a different person)

Psalm 20 says : now i know that the Lord saveth his annoited one. (hebrew yauvah saves his Messiah)
the Messiah has to be God for the forgiveness of sin (we sin against God, therefore only God can forgive us)

the two that the Holy Spirit showed me after reading these a couple of times he reveled this to me and i was amazed

Psalm 30 says to Yehuvah i will call and to my lord i will make supplecations ( in hebrew Yahuvah and Adonai)
Psalm 24 says he will recieve a blessing from Yehuvah and righteousness from the God of his Salvation

the interesting part is that we read these so many times and only when the Holy Spirit decides to reveal something to us we finally understand

I never saw the trinity in the old testament before i came to know Yeshua (Jesus).

I can share something else, that I dont know how many of you know about this in Genesis it says In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. and that the spirit of God is hovering over the waters (Emptiness) in the hebrew Bereshit it says God created et ashamaim ve et aaretz (heavens and earth) but the second ET is meaning less (could says God created et ashameim ve aaretz) this second ET is Yeshua and Gods whole plan of salvation (Yeshua is the Aleph Tav (ET) and in ancient hebrew Aleph is drown like a ox head which means God and tav drawn like a cross So God would die on the Cross.

this will explain better:
[youtube]https://youtu.be/_0GsgXlxAKo[/youtube]

Amen to the Genesis catch!

I saw that (ET meaning Aleph/Tav) in the text. Look at the 2nd Aleph/Tav where it is translated and and what do you see?

Lot of meaning in there, isn't it?

The 'Ve'et' Letter Waw prefix to Aleph/Tav (Note Rev 1:17) amazing... however this is lost in translation....

"In the beginning Elohim (Aleph/Tav) created the heavens and (Ve'et) the earth." Gen 1:1

You can say "the (to be) nailed one - the first and the last - created heaven/earth


You can follow the story line of Genesis "the (to be) nailed one - the first and the last - created heaven/earth - to bring order out of nothing, darkness, and chaos... By his light to come...thru new living means... then verse 26 explains how this order is brought about by another shade of meaning from Ve'et' in Gen 1:1 per revealed if you waw's number meaning meaning - man.

The nail one will be Elohim as man to die on a cross the one who created heaven/earth to be united with God's order ...

that is a mouthful and Rev 21:1-8 verifies the concept of heaven and earth and all things united back to God's order to...

...bring all things into subjection of Jesus (Yeshua) Christ 1 Co 15:27,28 and Heb 2:8,9,10,11

However, again this is lost to most people because they are taught limited theological concepts...
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[mrtzur2015]

However, again this is lost to most people because they are taught limited theological concepts...
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I know, so horrible. even schools cant teach the bible like it is. it just takes time getting into fellowship with God putting down time to read the bible and then gems like this revealed to us.

so indeed trinity is not a new concept they all were there at creation God the father, The word (Yeshua), the Holy Spirit manifesting everything to be.


there are so many more examples,
Abraham meeting the Lord

Genesis 18 King James Version (KJV)
18 And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

Abraham met the Lord in person guess what? three men appeared to him! amazing.

Isaiah 48:12-16 King James Version (KJV)
12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

14 All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The Lord hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.

15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.

16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Isaiah 48 the Lord Yeshua is speaking, in 16 he says that the Lord God and his Spirit has sent him.


Genesis 1:26 King James Version (KJV)
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

God is creating man in (Our) his image. (Spirit Soul Body)

I tried explaining this things to some people who are considering themselves ONENESS Pentecostal they believe in Jesus only and even baptize only in Jesus name it seems like unless the holy spirit has reveled this to you you will never catch on to this.

[mrtzur2015]

The trinity is also reveled in the menora (3) - (1) - (3) = 7
3 persons, 1 GodHead, 7 spirits of God;

[youtube]https://youtu.be/ooKVstOeN3I[/youtube]

[B. W.]

However, again this is lost to most people because they are taught limited theological concepts...

I know, so horrible. even schools cant teach the bible like it is. it just takes time getting into fellowship with God putting down time to read the bible and then gems like this revealed to us.

so indeed trinity is not a new concept they all were there at creation God the father, The word (Yeshua), the Holy Spirit manifesting everything to be.


there are so many more examples,
Abraham meeting the Lord

Genesis 18 King James Version (KJV)
18 And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

Abraham met the Lord in person guess what? three men appeared to him! amazing.

Isaiah 48:12-16 King James Version (KJV)
12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

14 All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The Lord hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.

15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.

16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Isaiah 48 the Lord Yeshua is speaking, in 16 he says that the Lord God and his Spirit has sent him.

Genesis 1:26 King James Version (KJV)
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

God is creating man in (Our) his image. (Spirit Soul Body)

I tried explaining this things to some people who are considering themselves ONENESS Pentecostal they believe in Jesus only and even baptize only in Jesus name it seems like unless the holy spirit has reveled this to you you will never catch on to this.

Sometimes we need to choose the battles as some folks just do not listen no matter the evidence that goes contrary to what they believe...


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[mrtzur2015]

i been shown something else, very interesting
in Genesis 3:22-24 it says that God has banished adam and eve, and hes saying behold that they are like us now knowing Good and evil they must not eat from the tree of life and live forever.. so he sends his sword to protect the tree

in the new testament we are revealed that the Sword is in fact Jesus
Ephesians 6:17 - take the sword of the spirit which is the word of God (Jesus).

i think the two are related.

[B. W.]

i been shown something else, very interesting
in Genesis 3:22-24 it says that God has banished adam and eve, and hes saying behold that they are like us now knowing Good and evil they must not eat from the tree of life and live forever.. so he sends his sword to protect the tree

in the new testament we are revealed that the Sword is in fact Jesus
Ephesians 6:17 - take the sword of the spirit which is the word of God (Jesus).

i think the two are related.

Not sure these two concepts are the same or mean the same - how do you see these are related?
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[mrtzur2015]

i been shown something else, very interesting
in Genesis 3:22-24 it says that God has banished adam and eve, and hes saying behold that they are like us now knowing Good and evil they must not eat from the tree of life and live forever.. so he sends his sword to protect the tree

in the new testament we are revealed that the Sword is in fact Jesus
Ephesians 6:17 - take the sword of the spirit which is the word of God (Jesus).

i think the two are related.

Not sure these two concepts are the same or mean the same - how do you see these are related?
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Jesus is the sword of God it is revealed many times in the Bible
Deuteronomy 33:29
Isaiah 34:5
Isaiah 66:16
Psalm 17:13

In the New Testament at John first we are told that the word of God is Jesus.
John 1:1
John 1:14

[B. W.]

That is interesting...
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