There is no Hope without Jesus

[RickD]

Kenny,

Let me pose a scenario to show you that I think you do choose what you believe. Keep in mind, that to believe something, you put your trust or confidence in that something, that it's true, or reliable.

I don't know if you're married, but let's assume you are for this example. In your house, you are the one who pays all the bills. You are on a 2 week business trip, and one week into the trip, you realize you forgot to pay a bill. So, you call your wife and explain the situation that the bill will be late, if you wait until you get home to pay it. Your wife tells you that she will pay the bill before it's late. You can choose to trust that she will pay the bill, or choose not to trust her, correct?

[Kenny]

To say that one doesn't choose what they believe in means that they have no choice in what they accept and I don't think people truly understand what it means to stated that.

Of course you can choose when the options come from an outside source, but when the only option comes from your own head, how is it possible to choose something else?

To state that you have no choice in what you believe is to state that you have NOT come to your conclusions via your own understanding but that they were somehow forced upon you and you had to accept them,period.

No; I’m saying when you come to your conclusions via your own understanding, it isn’t a matter of choosing to believe what you understand to be true, its a matter of recognizing what you believe to be true; the idea of choice doesn’t even enter the picture.

Ken

[Kenny]

kenny wrote:
So how about answering my original question; could you choose to believe something you know is not true?

Kenny, the question as asked is paradoxical. It's an absurdity.

Then it should be easy to answer, right?

By asking, "Could you choose to believe something you know is not true", is like asking if you could choose to believe something you don't believe.

Exactly! And the obvious answer is NO! Because when you find something to be true, you don’t make an actual choice to believe it, you automatically believe it; choice doesn’t even enter the equation.
Again; if we chose to believe, we could choose NOT to believe. Choice doesn't only go one way.

By definition, belief in something presupposes that you have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of whatever is the object of your belief.

Not in the context of this conversation; in this discussion, to believe is to become convinced something is true. Once you become convinced, the idea of making a choice to believe or not is no longer an issue.

[Kenny]

Kenny,

Let me pose a scenario to show you that I think you do choose what you believe. Keep in mind, that to believe something, you put your trust or confidence in that something, that it's true, or reliable.

I don't know if you're married, but let's assume you are for this example. In your house, you are the one who pays all the bills. You are on a 2 week business trip, and one week into the trip, you realize you forgot to pay a bill. So, you call your wife and explain the situation that the bill will be late, if you wait until you get home to pay it. Your wife tells you that she will pay the bill before it's late. You can choose to trust that she will pay the bill, or choose not to trust her, correct?

Earlier Paulsacramento provided a dictionary definition of “belief”

be·lief
bəˈlēf/Submit
noun
1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"
2.
trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.

You seem to be referring the the #2 definition; I believe this conversation is about the #1 definition.

[RickD]

Kenny,

Let me pose a scenario to show you that I think you do choose what you believe. Keep in mind, that to believe something, you put your trust or confidence in that something, that it's true, or reliable.

I don't know if you're married, but let's assume you are for this example. In your house, you are the one who pays all the bills. You are on a 2 week business trip, and one week into the trip, you realize you forgot to pay a bill. So, you call your wife and explain the situation that the bill will be late, if you wait until you get home to pay it. Your wife tells you that she will pay the bill before it's late. You can choose to trust that she will pay the bill, or choose not to trust her, correct?

Earlier Paulsacramento provided a dictionary definition of “belief”

be·lief
bəˈlēf/Submit
noun
1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"
2.
trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.

You seem to be referring the the #2 definition; I believe this conversation is about the #1 definition.

No Kenny, in this conversation about a belief in God, both 1 and 2 apply. But let's do the scenario above, with the #1 definition, if it makes it easier for you to see my point.

Do you choose to accept your wife's statement that she will pay the bill?

[RickD]

Kenny,

Let's say for the sake of the discussion, I agree with your statement here:

Not in the context of this conversation; in this discussion, to believe is to become convinced something is true.

As I said, assuming I agree, "to believe" is the same as "to become convinced". The choice to believe, or the choice to become convinced, must come prior to the actual belief itself. So, this point is meaningless:

Once you become convinced, the idea of making a choice to believe or not is no longer an issue.

The idea of making a choice comes before one becomes convinced, so of course the choice to believe is no longer an issue after you have already made the choice which leads to belief.

[Kenny]

Kenny,

Let me pose a scenario to show you that I think you do choose what you believe. Keep in mind, that to believe something, you put your trust or confidence in that something, that it's true, or reliable.

I don't know if you're married, but let's assume you are for this example. In your house, you are the one who pays all the bills. You are on a 2 week business trip, and one week into the trip, you realize you forgot to pay a bill. So, you call your wife and explain the situation that the bill will be late, if you wait until you get home to pay it. Your wife tells you that she will pay the bill before it's late. You can choose to trust that she will pay the bill, or choose not to trust her, correct?

Earlier Paulsacramento provided a dictionary definition of “belief”

be·lief
bəˈlēf/Submit
noun
1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"
2.
trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.

You seem to be referring the the #2 definition; I believe this conversation is about the #1 definition.

No Kenny, in this conversation about a belief in God, both 1 and 2 apply. But let's do the scenario above, with the #1 definition, if it makes it easier for you to see my point.

Do you choose to accept your wife's statement that she will pay the bill?

Using the scenario you presented, I do believe she will do as she said. I would prefer the term; faith, or trust. To say I choose to believe her would suggest I could just as easily choose NOT to believe her; and when I consider her track record of such things, along with our history of interactions; I don’t think I could simply choose to believe she would not follow through with her word.

[Kenny]

Kenny,

Let's say for the sake of the discussion, I agree with your statement here:

Not in the context of this conversation; in this discussion, to believe is to become convinced something is true.

As I said, assuming I agree, "to believe" is the same as "to become convinced". The choice to believe, or the choice to become convinced, must come prior to the actual belief itself. So, this point is meaningless:

Once you become convinced, the idea of making a choice to believe or not is no longer an issue.

The idea of making a choice comes before one becomes convinced, so of course the choice to believe is no longer an issue after you have already made the choice which leads to belief.

So if I understand you correctly, you make a choice to believe "X" is true, before you see evidence that it is true or not. Is this correct?

[RickD]

Kenny,

Let's say for the sake of the discussion, I agree with your statement here:

Not in the context of this conversation; in this discussion, to believe is to become convinced something is true.

As I said, assuming I agree, "to believe" is the same as "to become convinced". The choice to believe, or the choice to become convinced, must come prior to the actual belief itself. So, this point is meaningless:

Once you become convinced, the idea of making a choice to believe or not is no longer an issue.

The idea of making a choice comes before one becomes convinced, so of course the choice to believe is no longer an issue after you have already made the choice which leads to belief.

So if I understand you correctly, you make a choice to believe "X" is true, before you see evidence that it is true or not. Is this correct?

That's not what I was saying.

[RickD]

Kenny,

Let me pose a scenario to show you that I think you do choose what you believe. Keep in mind, that to believe something, you put your trust or confidence in that something, that it's true, or reliable.

I don't know if you're married, but let's assume you are for this example. In your house, you are the one who pays all the bills. You are on a 2 week business trip, and one week into the trip, you realize you forgot to pay a bill. So, you call your wife and explain the situation that the bill will be late, if you wait until you get home to pay it. Your wife tells you that she will pay the bill before it's late. You can choose to trust that she will pay the bill, or choose not to trust her, correct?

Earlier Paulsacramento provided a dictionary definition of “belief”

be·lief
bəˈlēf/Submit
noun
1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"
2.
trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.

You seem to be referring the the #2 definition; I believe this conversation is about the #1 definition.

No Kenny, in this conversation about a belief in God, both 1 and 2 apply. But let's do the scenario above, with the #1 definition, if it makes it easier for you to see my point.

Do you choose to accept your wife's statement that she will pay the bill?

Using the scenario you presented, I do believe she will do as she said. I would prefer the term; faith, or trust. To say I choose to believe her would suggest I could just as easily choose NOT to believe her; and when I consider her track record of such things, along with our history of interactions; I don’t think I could simply choose to believe she would not follow through with her word.

Kenny, choosing to accept your wife's statement is the same thing as saying that you believe her or trust her.

[Kenny]

Kenny,

Let's say for the sake of the discussion, I agree with your statement here:

Not in the context of this conversation; in this discussion, to believe is to become convinced something is true.

As I said, assuming I agree, "to believe" is the same as "to become convinced". The choice to believe, or the choice to become convinced, must come prior to the actual belief itself. So, this point is meaningless:

Once you become convinced, the idea of making a choice to believe or not is no longer an issue.

The idea of making a choice comes before one becomes convinced, so of course the choice to believe is no longer an issue after you have already made the choice which leads to belief.

So if I understand you correctly, you make a choice to believe "X" is true, before you see evidence that it is true or not. Is this correct?

That's not what I was saying.

Okay; let me try again;
So you see the evidence that “X” is true, and the moment you determine the evidence is believable, you immediately make the choice to believe the evidence you determined as true, is true. Is this what you are saying?

[Kenny]

Kenny,

Let me pose a scenario to show you that I think you do choose what you believe. Keep in mind, that to believe something, you put your trust or confidence in that something, that it's true, or reliable.

I don't know if you're married, but let's assume you are for this example. In your house, you are the one who pays all the bills. You are on a 2 week business trip, and one week into the trip, you realize you forgot to pay a bill. So, you call your wife and explain the situation that the bill will be late, if you wait until you get home to pay it. Your wife tells you that she will pay the bill before it's late. You can choose to trust that she will pay the bill, or choose not to trust her, correct?

Earlier Paulsacramento provided a dictionary definition of “belief”

be·lief
bəˈlēf/Submit
noun
1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"
2.
trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.

You seem to be referring the the #2 definition; I believe this conversation is about the #1 definition.

No Kenny, in this conversation about a belief in God, both 1 and 2 apply. But let's do the scenario above, with the #1 definition, if it makes it easier for you to see my point.

Do you choose to accept your wife's statement that she will pay the bill?

Using the scenario you presented, I do believe she will do as she said. I would prefer the term; faith, or trust. To say I choose to believe her would suggest I could just as easily choose NOT to believe her; and when I consider her track record of such things, along with our history of interactions; I don’t think I could simply choose to believe she would not follow through with her word.

Kenny, choosing to accept your wife's statement is the same thing as saying that you believe her or trust her.

But if I choose to accept her statement, doesn't that also mean I could choose to not accept her statement? I've already explained why I could not choose to not accept her statement

[RickD]

Kenny,

Let's say for the sake of the discussion, I agree with your statement here:

Not in the context of this conversation; in this discussion, to believe is to become convinced something is true.

As I said, assuming I agree, "to believe" is the same as "to become convinced". The choice to believe, or the choice to become convinced, must come prior to the actual belief itself. So, this point is meaningless:

Once you become convinced, the idea of making a choice to believe or not is no longer an issue.

The idea of making a choice comes before one becomes convinced, so of course the choice to believe is no longer an issue after you have already made the choice which leads to belief.

So if I understand you correctly, you make a choice to believe "X" is true, before you see evidence that it is true or not. Is this correct?

That's not what I was saying.

Okay; let me try again;
So you see the evidence that “X” is true, and the moment you determine the evidence is believable, you immediately make the choice to believe the evidence you determined as true, is true. Is this what you are saying?

No. I was disagreeing with the wording of what you said.

[Kenny]

Kenny,

Let's say for the sake of the discussion, I agree with your statement here:



As I said, assuming I agree, "to believe" is the same as "to become convinced". The choice to believe, or the choice to become convinced, must come prior to the actual belief itself. So, this point is meaningless:


The idea of making a choice comes before one becomes convinced, so of course the choice to believe is no longer an issue after you have already made the choice which leads to belief.

So if I understand you correctly, you make a choice to believe "X" is true, before you see evidence that it is true or not. Is this correct?

That's not what I was saying.

Okay; let me try again;
So you see the evidence that “X” is true, and the moment you determine the evidence is believable, you immediately make the choice to believe the evidence you determined as true, is true. Is this what you are saying?

No. I was disagreeing with the wording of what you said.

Would you mind rephrasing what I said using the correct wording?

[RickD]

Earlier Paulsacramento provided a dictionary definition of “belief”

be·lief
bəˈlēf/Submit
noun
1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"
2.
trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.

You seem to be referring the the #2 definition; I believe this conversation is about the #1 definition.

No Kenny, in this conversation about a belief in God, both 1 and 2 apply. But let's do the scenario above, with the #1 definition, if it makes it easier for you to see my point.

Do you choose to accept your wife's statement that she will pay the bill?

Using the scenario you presented, I do believe she will do as she said. I would prefer the term; faith, or trust. To say I choose to believe her would suggest I could just as easily choose NOT to believe her; and when I consider her track record of such things, along with our history of interactions; I don’t think I could simply choose to believe she would not follow through with her word.

Kenny, choosing to accept your wife's statement is the same thing as saying that you believe her or trust her.

But if I choose to accept her statement, doesn't that also mean I could choose to not accept her statement? I've already explained why I could not choose to not accept her statement

No. You look at the evidence, including past reliability of your wife. Then you choose to trust her/accept her statement as reliable. If she was always reliable in what she said she would do, it may be an easy choice for you to believe her. If sometimes she forgets to do what she says, you may have a harder time choosing to trust her word.
Just because you choose to trust her, that doesn't necessarily mean her past behavior would lead you to a choice of not accepting her statement. The point is that after going through the evidence in your mind, you choose one over any other possible choices. Even if all evidence overwhelming leads you to choose to believe her, you are still consciously making a choice to believe her. You used your intellect to gather evidence, which allows you to make a choice. That's just how it works.