The Origin of Speciousness

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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August
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The Origin of Speciousness

Post by August »

http://www.americanprowler.com/dsp_arti ... rt_id=9045

Food for thought here, I agree with the author. Evolution is inherently an atheist theory, despite the best efforts of supporters on both sides to reconcile religion and evolution.
Only a small percentage of the American people support the evolutionary claim that life arose through purely material causes. Consequently, many Darwinists, recognizing that they need to win new converts lest they completely lose control over the debate, now loudly argue that Darwin's theory harmonizes with religion. As Brown professor Kenneth Miller put it in the New York Times recently, Darwin's theory isn't "anti-God." But this PR strategy of emphasizing the compatibility of Darwinism and religion is running into a problem: Darwinism's most celebrated experts -- that is, the scientists who understand the theory most purely and deeply -- admit that it is an intrinsically atheistic theory.

Edward O. Wilson's introductions to a newly edited collection of Darwin's writings, From So Simple A Beginning, is newsworthy in this respect. Wilson argues very straightforwardly that the attempt to reconcile Darwinism with religion is "well meaning" but wrong. The theory excludes God as a cause of nature, he writes, and any "rapprochement" between science and religion is not "desirable" and not consistent with Darwin's thought.

"I think Darwin would have held the same position," Wilson writes. "The battle line is, as it has ever been, in biology. The inexorable growth of this science continues to widen, not to close, the tectonic gap between science and faith-based religion."

Buttressing his argument that Darwinism is a godless account of nature, Wilson reminds readers that Darwin rejected Christianity, and that this "shedding of blind faith gave him the intellectual fearlessness to explore human evolution wherever logic and evidence took him." (Wilson's anti-religious prejudice is so strong he doesn't even consider the possibility that love of God might inspire a scientist to study carefully and reverently God's handiwork in nature.)

Theistic evolution -- the idea that an omnipotent God could use random mutations and natural selection to produce life; in other words, create not by his intellect but by chance -- is no more meaningful of a concept than a square circle. Wilson doesn't say this but he would agree with it. Natural selection necessarily means that nothing outside of nature is necessary to explain it, he writes. "Implicit" in the concept of natural selection is the "operation of blind chance and the absence of divine purpose." Nature is self-sufficient and therefore has no need for God. He writes that "we must conclude that life has diversified on Earth autonomously without any kind of external guidance. Evolution in a pure Darwinian world has no goal or purpose: the exclusive driving force is random mutations sorted out by natural selection from one generation to the next."

The earth creates itself, according to Wilson, and man is like everything else on it -- a product of a "blind force." This means that man is no more special or purposeful than anything else. Yes, he possesses interesting "adaptive devices," which include a curious inherited tendency toward religion, but he is still an accident and an animal. This is why, writes Wilson, Darwin's theory is revolutionary: "it showed that humanity is not the center of creation, and not its purpose either."

WILSON'S COMMENTS, PRESENTED in an authoritative collection of Darwin's work, make the Darwinists hawking the theory as consistent with religion look either confused or opportunistic. They either don't understand the implications of the theory or they are willfully distorting the theory in order to gull the religious into embracing it. If they are doing the latter, they are reprising a game Darwin himself played very effectively: using the rhetoric of theism to upend theism.

Lest he lose his Victorian audience, Darwin made sure to conceal his hostility to religion in his work, and even presented On the Origin of Species as an extension of the tradition of natural theology. It wasn't until his unexpurgated autobiography came out long after his death that his view of life as godless became widely known. He reminded himself once in a note that he better "avoid stating how far I believe in materialism."

In his autobiography, he notes that he came to regard Jesus Christ's apostles as simpletons for believing in miracles. People of that time were, Darwin wrote, "ignorant and credulous to a degree almost incomprehensible by us." And even as he unveiled a theory of nature as a blind and brutal force, he rejected Christianity as a "damnable doctrine" on the very sentimental grounds that if true it meant some of his family and friends were doomed: "I can indeed hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother and almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished."

Of course, Wilson, who praises Darwin for his fearless, unflinching, hardheaded approach to thorny matters, sees no irony in Darwin's soft and emotional dismissal of Christianity as an unpleasant doctrine. (By the way, Wilson says that anybody who thinks Darwin "recanted" his view of Christianity is mistaken. "There is not a shred of evidence that he did or that he was presented with any reason to do so.")

Critics of evolution who observe that Darwin's theory is an account of nature that negates any role for God in life stand on very solid ground. They are not twisting the theory; they are stating it. Theistic evolutionists like Kenneth Miller, who has said that his Catholicism gives his Darwinism "strong propaganda value," are misrepresenting the theory for rhetorical reasons. Were they really serious about their position, they wouldn't spend their time browbeating figures like Austrian cardinal Christoph Schonborn for stating that Darwinism and religion are incompatible; they would spend their time debating fellow Darwinists on the theory's real meaning. Schonborn merely understands evolutionary theory the same way its most exalted exponents do.

IT WAS DARWINIST William Provine, not a critic of evolution, who said that Darwinism is the "greatest engine of atheism devised by man." Richard Dawkins, Thomas Henry Huxley, John Maynard Smith, and a host of other Darwinian experts, have made similar declarations of evolutionary theory's essentially atheistic character.

That evolutionists are downplaying this for PR reasons is understandable. What's not understandable is why certain religious are helping them. The modern religious who eagerly embrace random mutation and natural selection as an explanation of nature look as dim and craven as the hollowed-out Anglican ministers at Darwin's burial at Westminster Abbey.

If nature is not the work of divine intelligence but of blind chance, God does not exist. Darwinism is a "universal acid" that burns through "just about every traditional concept," says evolutionist Daniel Dennett. This is illustrated by the increasingly wan and risible theology evolutionists within the Catholic Church are producing. Jesuit George Coyne, head of the Vatican observatory, is straining so hard to work God into his evolutionary schema that he has written that God is like a parent standing on the sidelines speaking "encouraging words" to earth. Kenneth Miller has declared, in a statement that would come as a great surprise to the doctors of the Church, that "randomness is a key feature of the mind of God."

Nietzsche wouldn't need to revise his view that "God is dead" were he to hear these descriptions of God. "Theistic evolution" is producing a theology of God as powerless and mindless, a God who is dead in man's thinking about life on earth. In separating God from nature, theistic evolutionists end up with a distorted view of both. And for what? To salvage a theory that Darwin's disciples like Edward Wilson have said is unavoidably atheistic?
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Post by Believer »

HERE is the blog that is active to the above post August made.
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Post by Cougar »

August,

Do you think that evolution is not necessarily an aetheist view, but perhaps rather one that does not consistently agree with the Christian view? I feel that is quite unfair to imply that by simply agreeing with evolutionary theory one is an aetheist.

Also, does one have to subscribe to a particular religion in order to believe in God?
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Post by August »

Do you think that evolution is not necessarily an aetheist view, but perhaps rather one that does not consistently agree with the Christian view? I feel that is quite unfair to imply that by simply agreeing with evolutionary theory one is an aetheist.
Which theist view allows you to agree with evolution?
Also, does one have to subscribe to a particular religion in order to believe in God?
On what basis do you then believe in God?
Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."

//www.omnipotentgrace.org
//christianskepticism.blogspot.com
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Post by Cougar »

You didn't answer my questions.

Answering a question with another question is a fallacy. So please answer my questions first.
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Post by August »

Cougar wrote:You didn't answer my questions.

Answering a question with another question is a fallacy. So please answer my questions first.
How is answering a question with another question a fallacy if the questions I ask are logically prior to yours?

You already know my position fomo my statements above, that is why you responded. Yes, evolution is an atheist view, I already said that's what I believe.

My question about God is logically prior to yours, how can I answer your question if you did not specify which religions God you are talking about, since God differs by definition between religions?
Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."

//www.omnipotentgrace.org
//christianskepticism.blogspot.com
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Post by Cougar »

Ok, well my point was that just because evolution may not fall under the theistic beliefs of Christianity does not mean it is an aetheist view only. Many scientists who study and learn about evolution believe in a higher power, God, whatever you would like to call it. Therefore I disagree with the article you posted saying that it is an aetheistic view.

I personally don't really know how to describe my view of God and how the world works, but I do believe in God and I also feel evolution is a sound scientific theory. The answer to my own question is that I do not feel that a person needs to subscribe to a particular religious belief to believe in God. Now I ask you your opinion of humanity as a whole. Does a person need to have "religion" to believe in God?

I would also like to comment that just because it was later found that Darwin was "anti-religion" should not have an effect on how his work was and is perceived. It was a phenomenal breakthrough in science and should be revered as such. His personal beliefs should not be of consequence to anyone but himself.
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Post by AttentionKMartShoppers »

would also like to comment that just because it was later found that Darwin was "anti-religion" should not have an effect on how his work was and is perceived
But cougar, according to an earlier post, it's a religious belief.

Don't say religion and theism are the same thing. Atheism is a religion. And agnosticism is the fictional cuddlier version of atheism..

Therefore I disagree with the article you posted saying that it is an aetheistic view.
Your disdain for logic is quite clear. Explain how because there are theists who believe in evolution, that evolution is not inherently an atheistic belief? I mean, just because there are atheists (most of them) who believe in objective morality (based on what they do, not what they say they believe...), it does not logically flow that objective morality is not a theistic belief.
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Re: The Origin of Speciousness

Post by sandy_mcd »

August wrote:Evolution is inherently an atheist theory, despite the best efforts of supporters on both sides to reconcile religion and evolution.
What do you mean by "atheistic theory" ?
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Post by August »

Cougar wrote:Ok, well my point was that just because evolution may not fall under the theistic beliefs of Christianity does not mean it is an aetheist view only. Many scientists who study and learn about evolution believe in a higher power, God, whatever you would like to call it. Therefore I disagree with the article you posted saying that it is an aetheistic view.
I know that there are many that believe in both. The problem I have with your statement is the unclear definition of God. If you say it is not the Christian God, which one are you referring to that evolutionists believe in, and allows for all life as we see it to be due to naturalistic processes? Theism, by definition, is a belief in a God that maintains a personal relationship with his created beings, and atheism is the opposite of that belief. If evolution is true, mankind was not created but evolved from pondscum, and was not created. Deism would allow for your view to be true, but not theism. Which God do you pray to that wishes to have a personal relationship with evolved pondscum, and on what basis did you arrive at that conclusion?
I personally don't really know how to describe my view of God and how the world works, but I do believe in God and I also feel evolution is a sound scientific theory. The answer to my own question is that I do not feel that a person needs to subscribe to a particular religious belief to believe in God. Now I ask you your opinion of humanity as a whole. Does a person need to have "religion" to believe in God?
The answer is yes, because if you do not have religion, on what basis do you believe in God? The concept of God is defined and spread by religion, so it is impossible to believe in a God without using the teachings, mechanisms or presuppositions of a religion.
I would also like to comment that just because it was later found that Darwin was "anti-religion" should not have an effect on how his work was and is perceived. It was a phenomenal breakthrough in science and should be revered as such. His personal beliefs should not be of consequence to anyone but himself.
It was not "later found" that Darwin was anti-religion, it was known before he published OotS, and played a strong role in him writing it. Regardless of that, his unbelief was strenghtened by his own work, and has since lead to countless instances of quoting evolution in support atheism. While I would agree that there is no doubt that there is scientific value in the work initiated by Darwin, I would also argue that it had far-reaching philosophical and religious implications.
Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."

//www.omnipotentgrace.org
//christianskepticism.blogspot.com
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Re: The Origin of Speciousness

Post by August »

sandy_mcd wrote:
August wrote:Evolution is inherently an atheist theory, despite the best efforts of supporters on both sides to reconcile religion and evolution.
What do you mean by "atheistic theory" ?
A theory that has atheism as a presupposition.
Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."

//www.omnipotentgrace.org
//christianskepticism.blogspot.com
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Re: The Origin of Speciousness

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August wrote:A theory that has atheism as a presupposition.
Creationism is certainly a theistic theory. But evolution is no more an atheistic theory than is ID or baking. Creationism requires God, but none of the others do. Evolution could proceed materialistically or be set in motion by God; ID could have God as the designer or alien biology-lab students; the recipe for apple pie doesn't call for divine intervention.
I am pretty sure you are going to say that evolution requires pure random chance which precludes theistic evolution, but I still haven't seen any reasonable (to me at least) argument that disproves the possibility of theistic evolution.
The big problem with evolution is that it, unlike quantum mechanics or baseball, supplanted a belief system (Creationism) which required God and thus made it possible for some people to believe in an atheistic universe.
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Re: The Origin of Speciousness

Post by August »

sandy_mcd wrote:
August wrote:A theory that has atheism as a presupposition.
Creationism is certainly a theistic theory. But evolution is no more an atheistic theory than is ID or baking. Creationism requires God, but none of the others do. Evolution could proceed materialistically or be set in motion by God; ID could have God as the designer or alien biology-lab students; the recipe for apple pie doesn't call for divine intervention.
I am pretty sure you are going to say that evolution requires pure random chance which precludes theistic evolution, but I still haven't seen any reasonable (to me at least) argument that disproves the possibility of theistic evolution.
The big problem with evolution is that it, unlike quantum mechanics or baseball, supplanted a belief system (Creationism) which required God and thus made it possible for some people to believe in an atheistic universe.
Sorry Sandy, but how do you reconcile theism and evolution? Which concept of God allows you to believe that? If God only set things in motion, then what reason does anyone have to believe that He is still active today? Which parts of any religious writings that describe a theistic God leads you to believe that God set an evolutionary process in motion?

Look at it this way, from a Christian perspective:
Evolution = matter+time+genetic variation+selection+death
Theistic Evolution = matter+time+genetic variation+selection+death+God
It essentially means that God becomes a god of the gaps, that everything not explained by evolutionary theory is ascribed to God. It also denies certain central Biblical teachings, like that of purpose. There are many other inconsistencies, and I'll be glad to discuss them if you want.
Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."

//www.omnipotentgrace.org
//christianskepticism.blogspot.com
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Post by Cougar »

The reason I am wary of using solely logic is because you can use it to argue or prove anything. I have read a paper describing the lack of knowledge of your hand existing because you can't prove you aren't under the spell of a witch. And it was logically valid... yet ridiculous to me as a scientist. Science requires hard facts combined with logic to come to conclusions.

I would also never say that evolution is a religious doctrine. I apologize if that was the conclusion made by whatever I wrote.

To address August:

The reason I brought up Darwin's beliefs is simply because many ID proponents argue that ID is not "creationism in a tux" and that it doesn't require the "Christian God"... the reason many people come to this conclusion is because many of the people who developed and try to prove ID, are in fact, Christians. One could argue that ID, like you said of Darwin, has "far-reaching philosophical and religious implications". If ID proponents don't want this conclusion to be made (i.e. they want the beliefs of the developers left out of it) I feel the same should be done for Darwin.

I don't know that there is a particular religion that is congruent with my personal beliefs... so to identify "which God I am referring to that has an intimate relationship with pondscum" probably is not possible. This probably has to do with the fact that I do not regard the Bible as always being literal fact, so when people argue stories in the Bible with me I don't always agree. So there probably is not an established religion that suits my particular beliefs. I have my own beliefs and faith. So, sorry I can't address your question further.
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Post by AttentionKMartShoppers »

The reason I am wary of using solely logic is because you can use it to argue or prove anything. I have read a paper describing the lack of knowledge of your hand existing because you can't prove you aren't under the spell of a witch. And it was logically valid... yet ridiculous to me as a scientist. Science requires hard facts combined with logic to come to conclusions.
Are we now claiming ID proponents are under the spell of a witch? And it's not just logic...I mean, one piece of *quite lovely* evidence for ID is the Cambrian Explosion....
Last edited by AttentionKMartShoppers on Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin

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You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
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