WHAT Jesus is - and WHEN did you know it?

[Philip]

This is a question for Christians. But first the setup.

I was deeply thinking about salvation issues, and how important it is that the Jesus we believe in is the one in history (and the present) - the one who died and arose. Of course, Muslims, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons and various cults don't believe Jesus is God. And not only that, but they believe other false things about him. Muslims deny the resurrection, and assert Jesus was merely another prophet of god, but not the greatest one. Mormons believe godhood can be earned - that god the father was once not god, that he had to earn his way to godhood. And they don't believe in the Trinity or that Jesus is fully God, as they believe he was a created being (as apparently they do of the Father as well?). Jehovah Witnesses believe Jesus is a created likeness of god - a son who is a separate entity - so they deny God is a Trinity. All of these deny the Holy Spirit is God.

It occurs to me that many Christians - especially when quite young and Scripturally ignorant - initially came to faith in Christ per their belief that Jesus was God's Son, wasn't created, was eternal. And when they first believed, they certainly believed Jesus was born into the world and came to save us, died and was resurrected to life, and will return. But many such people, upon first believing and inviting and dedicating themselves to Him, while believing He was the historical Jesus and Son of the Father - was OF God, didn't necessarily grasp that Jesus Himself was also FULLY God. As for the Holy Spirit, they typically thought of God certainly having a Spirit, but not that the Holy Spirit Himself is also FULLY God. But as some point, I think, most Christians who study the Bible begin to realize that Jesus was and is fully God and took on humanity as a Spirit (God IS Spirit) putting on a coat of human flesh and blood - which He retains in Heaven.

We've discussed this issue before, as to how accurate an understanding and belief must a person have about Jesus to be saved. Around here, we've affirmed that they can't deny the Resurrection, or that Jesus is the only Son of God, or assert Him to be a created being - or that He's NOT God. But is not fully understanding of Jesus full Deity - is believing Jesus is uncreated, is the Son of the One God, is eternal, came, suffered, died for us, was resurrected, and they've asked God for forgiveness of their sins - are these not enough to become saved, with the deeper theological understanding of Jesus' Deity coming later?

So, my question is for those of you who were young or at whatever point in time they consider the time of their salvation: When you came to believe in Jesus and committed your life to Him - did you have an understanding that He was MORE than God's Son - did you realize and believe He was God Himself? And did you realize and believe that the Holy Spirit is God? Flesh out what you first believed and what understanding you had, when you came to salvation.

Because I don't think a lot of people initially had those fuller understanding about Jesus or the Holy Spirit when they were first authentically saved. Of course, much off even those basic understandings one had at salvation are denied by the cults - meaning they believe in another, non-historical / non-Scriptural Jesus. And those same unbelievers, when they learn that Scripture teaches Jesus is God, deny it. I know I didn't fully comprehend that Jesus wasn't just the Son of God and eternal, but that He WAS / IS and always has been FULLY God, as is the Holy Spirit. But I don't believe once a person has learned what Scripture teaches about Jesus being God - that if they DENY that - I don't believe they are saved.

Comments please!

[DBowling]

So, my question is for those of you who were young or at whatever point in time they consider the time of their salvation: When you came to believe in Jesus and committed your life to Him - did you have an understanding that He was MORE than God's Son - did you realize and believe He was God Himself? And did you realize and believe that the Holy Spirit is God? Flesh out what you first believed and what understanding you had, when you came to salvation.

Well I "asked Jesus into my heart" when I was 6 years old (a looooooong time ago).

To be honest, I don't think 6 years old is old enough to even comprehend some of these principles regarding the nature of God. Some of the few things I do remember.
- I did use Jesus and God interchangeably... ie... Jesus made everything, I prayed to Jesus, Jesus was always watching me...
As a young child, the human face of Jesus was the easiest representation of God for me to relate to.
- The earliest model of the Trinity I remember was the egg. Probably around second or third grade. Of course there are all kinds of theological problems with the egg model, but that was all I could wrap my brain around at that age.

Here's why I bring that up. I like to think that my current understanding of the nature of God and the Trinity is much deeper and more Scriptural than the models I had as a child, and I'm sure it is.

But... I have a hunch that even my current understanding of the nature of God and the Trinity is probably closer to the accuracy of my old egg model than the true reality of who and what God truly is.
This is why I am so glad that I am saved by grace through faith in the person of Jesus Christ, and not based on the accuracy of my understanding of theology and doctrine.

As the Holy Spirit has worked in my life over the decades to conform me to the image of Jesus, I have continually grown in my relationship with and understanding of the person who saved me.
But my understanding of Jesus will never be perfect this side of eternity.

In Christ

[abelcainsbrother]

This is a question for Christians. But first the setup.

I was deeply thinking about salvation issues, and how important it is that the Jesus we believe in is the one in history (and the present) - the one who died and arose. Of course, Muslims, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons and various cults don't believe Jesus is God. And not only that, but they believe other false things about him. Muslims deny the resurrection, and assert Jesus was merely another prophet of god, but not the greatest one. Mormons believe godhood can be earned - that god the father was once not god, that he had to earn his way to godhood. And they don't believe in the Trinity or that Jesus is fully God, as they believe he was a created being (as apparently they do of the Father as well?). Jehovah Witnesses believe Jesus is a created likeness of god - a son who is a separate entity - so they deny God is a Trinity. All of these deny the Holy Spirit is God.

It occurs to me that many Christians - especially when quite young and Scripturally ignorant - initially came to faith in Christ per their belief that Jesus was God's Son, wasn't created, was eternal. And when they first believed, they certainly believed Jesus was born into the world and came to save us, died and was resurrected to life, and will return. But many such people, upon first believing and inviting and dedicating themselves to Him, while believing He was the historical Jesus and Son of the Father - was OF God, didn't necessarily grasp that Jesus Himself was also FULLY God. As for the Holy Spirit, they typically thought of God certainly having a Spirit, but not that the Holy Spirit Himself is also FULLY God. But as some point, I think, most Christians who study the Bible begin to realize that Jesus was and is fully God and took on humanity as a Spirit (God IS Spirit) putting on a coat of human flesh and blood - which He retains in Heaven.

We've discussed this issue before, as to how accurate an understanding and belief must a person have about Jesus to be saved. Around here, we've affirmed that they can't deny the Resurrection, or that Jesus is the only Son of God, or assert Him to be a created being - or that He's NOT God. But is not fully understanding of Jesus full Deity - is believing Jesus is uncreated, is the Son of the One God, is eternal, came, suffered, died for us, was resurrected, and they've asked God for forgiveness of their sins - are these not enough to become saved, with the deeper theological understanding of Jesus' Deity coming later?

So, my question is for those of you who were young or at whatever point in time they consider the time of their salvation: When you came to believe in Jesus and committed your life to Him - did you have an understanding that He was MORE than God's Son - did you realize and believe He was God Himself? And did you realize and believe that the Holy Spirit is God? Flesh out what you first believed and what understanding you had, when you came to salvation.

Because I don't think a lot of people initially had those fuller understanding about Jesus or the Holy Spirit when they were first authentically saved. Of course, much off even those basic understandings one had at salvation are denied by the cults - meaning they believe in another, non-historical / non-Scriptural Jesus. And those same unbelievers, when they learn that Scripture teaches Jesus is God, deny it. I know I didn't fully comprehend that Jesus wasn't just the Son of God and eternal, but that He WAS / IS and always has been FULLY God, as is the Holy Spirit. But I don't believe once a person has learned what Scripture teaches about Jesus being God - that if they DENY that - I don't believe they are saved.

Comments please!

I believe as long as the true gospel is being preached people can be saved but not if the true gospel is not being preached.So anybody who is under false bible teaching when it comes to Jesus and who he is cannot be saved.This is why it is so serious when people teach a false gospel message and falsely teach about who Jesus is.People in them kind of churches cannot be saved. It does not matter one-bit how sincere they follow their religion as they are lost because we cannot save ourselves by works.This is why churches who do not teach the true gospel and do not truthfully teach who Jesus is teach works for salvation.This is how you can peg a false religion that teaches a false gospel message and does not know who Jesus really is.Look for works you must do in order to be justified.

In order to be saved a person must believe in Jesus and who he truly is and what he truly did so that we can be saved and then desire to be saved.How can you deny who Jesus really is and be saved? You cannot. The sad thing though is that many people ignore what God's word sais and believe what man sais.This is why Jesus taught about the narrow way to heaven and few there be that find it.

[Philip]

DB: This is why I am so glad that I am saved by grace through faith in the person of Jesus Christ, and not based on the accuracy of my understanding of theology and doctrine.

But SOME level of correct understanding must be critical, lest we could say that Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, and Muslims - if they believe their traditions teachings - are likewise saved, as they believe in Jesus, but have some seriously messed up theology - which I say goes against WHO and WHAT Scripture reveals Jesus to be. And if Jesus is the Son of the Father, and a young kid comes to Jesus believing that, and believes the Gospel basics and Resurrection, has prayed to be forgiven and saved, and YET hasn't yet fully comprehended that the Son is also fully and equally God, that's where I think DB's statement about faith in the person of Christ (and yet without a more comprehensive understanding of Jesus as God, the Holy Spirit as God), is certainly true. Those fuller understandings WILL come in time, but at the moment of salvation, many don't comprehend that Jesus is God - especially if they are very young.

OK, but what's the difference between a person saved believing all of the Gospel, yet not yet understanding of Jesus and the Holy Spirit are also and each fully God - what's the difference with those of other non-Christian faiths who believe in Jesus the Son? Because one could say their theology is messed up, but they still believe in Jesus the Son of God. Of course, the Jesus of Muslims not only isn't God, but he's a created being and the resurrection didn't occur. And what is attributed to the Father and the Son in the Quran cannot be describing the same God. And they believe in an un-resurrected Jesus. Mormons believe Jesus to be a son by birth - with a brother (Satan!).

Obviously, I'm trying to create some ideas on this topic - perhaps break down where a mere theological misunderstanding about Jesus doesn't prevent salvation, and were what wrong things a person believes about Jesus DOES prevent salvation. It's just clear to me that many have truly come to Christ who didn't know at that time of committing themselves to Him, that Jesus is also fully God - nor did they comprehend this about the Holy Spirit. And later - sometimes FAR later, they did understand this. I think it has much to do with what a person willfully denies about God the Father and Jesus the Son that is one key to this issue.

Thoughts?

[DBowling]

DB: This is why I am so glad that I am saved by grace through faith in the person of Jesus Christ, and not based on the accuracy of my understanding of theology and doctrine.

But SOME level of correct understanding must be critical, lest we could say that Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, and Muslims - if they believe their traditions teachings - are likewise saved, as they believe in Jesus, but have some seriously messed up theology - which I say goes against WHO and WHAT Scripture reveals Jesus to be. And if Jesus is the Son of the Father, and a young kid comes to Jesus believing that, and believes the Gospel basics and Resurrection, has prayed to be forgiven and saved, and YET hasn't yet fully comprehended that the Son is also fully and equally God, that's where I think DB's statement about faith in the person of Christ (and yet without a more comprehensive understanding of Jesus as God, the Holy Spirit as God), is certainly true. Those fuller understandings WILL come in time, but at the moment of salvation, many don't comprehend that Jesus is God - especially if they are very young.

As I mentioned above I put my faith in Jesus at a very young age, and when I put my faith in Jesus I did equate Jesus with God. So I do believe that a child can have some concept that Jesus is God without necessarily comprehending everything that really means.

John 1 lays this out very clearly.
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. All things were made by him, and without him nothing was made that was made... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory of the one and only Son who came from the Father, full of grace and truth...
To all those who receive him, to those who believe in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.

The reason that we are saved through faith in Jesus is precisely because when we put our faith in Jesus we are putting our faith in God.
John 1 is clear about the divinity of Jesus, and those who deny the divinity of Jesus are denying what Scripture explicitly tells us about Jesus, and I would say that a person who denies the divinity of Jesus is denying the Jesus of Scripture and history.

Getting back to the understanding of a child. Even as a child I had an understanding that Jesus was God, so when I "asked Jesus into my heart" I was also asking God into my heart in some way. My understanding of the nature and relationship of Jesus and God was simplistic and undeveloped as a child, but I did understand enough to put my faith in the true Jesus of Scripture and history.

In Christ

[Philip]

It would seem, of those who first accept Jesus, while not yet comprehending that He's not only God the Father's Son, but that He's also fully God, and those who believe in a false Jesus, has everything to do with WHAT they believe about Jesus, and perhaps more obvious as to what they deny about Him. A Muslim is taught from a young age that Jesus is but a prophet - they're not taught He is the source of their salvation, or that they must commit to and call on Him. So, that's belief in a false Jesus that cannot save. Mormons teach salvation and godhood achievable through obeying eloborate temple rituals - not per faith in Christ. Actually, the goal is to become a god yourself. And of course, the Bible is secondary to The Book of Mormon, in Mormon teaching - even though it constantly contradicts things Jesus and the Apostles said. So the belief in the Jesus of Mormonism can't save - it's not based upon the truth of the Bible, and how it says Jesus is the only way to salvation. Jehovah Witnesses believe Jesus was a created being - so, again, they teach a non-Biblical Jesus who is not God and a works-based faith.

All that to say, I believe a person can come to salvation not yet comprehending that Jesus is God, but that they do believe all the key things Scripture says they must believe - that Jesus is God's Son, died for their sins, arose, will come again. At some point, they'll have a more mature understanding about Jesus - it's not that they believe in a false Jesus like the cults teach. And for many young Christians, they also haven't yet comprehended that the Holy Spirit is also fully God. So their faith is rightly placed in Christ, even as His grace will eventually show them more fully WHAT He truly is.

[RickD]

All that to say, I believe a person can come to salvation not yet comprehending that Jesus is God, but that they do believe all the key things Scripture says they must believe Jesus is God's Son, died for their sins, arose, will come again. At some point, they'll have a more mature understanding about Jesus - it's not that they believe in a false Jesus like the cults teach. And for many young Christians, they also haven't yet comprehended that the Holy Spirit is also fully God. So their faith is rightly placed in Christ, even as His grace will eventually show them more fully WHAT He truly is.

I tend to agree with this. But as you said before, not having a complete understanding of who Christ is, is one thing. When a Christian learns, the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth. But, denying who the Bible says Christ is, is a completely different matter, imo.

[Philip]

Rick wrote:
I tend to agree with this. But as you said before, not having a complete understanding of who Christ is, is one thing. When a Christian learns, the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth. But, denying who the Bible says Christ is, is a completely different matter, imo.

I definitely agree. I used to not believe that possible, until I started reflecting back upon what I and many others didn't fully comprehend when we first came to salvation. And that's a problem of bad discipling - every child should be taught about the Godhood of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit - each fully God.

[Philip]

The idea that many people connect their initial understanding, faith and commitment to the Biblical Jesus and the Gospel story, and are truly saved BEFORE they have the fuller understanding of Jesus' Deity and Godhood is illustrated when Jesus asked about this.

He first asks his disciples who the people were saying He was:

“Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

Then Jesus cut to the quick, asking them THE crucial question that one's salvation depends upon: “But who do YOU say that I am?”

And Peter answers: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

It's very interesting that Jesus, at this point, didn't make this a teaching point - by clarifying that Him being the Son of God meant He was God Himself. He didn't say, "And Pete, I am also HOLY GOD!" But His further response, which almost certainly went over Peter's and the rest's heads, makes this clear.

Jesus references His deity and authority by making stating exactly WHOSE church it is: "MY church." And exactly Who had the ownership to entrust the "keys of God's Kingdom" (the Gospel message) to His followers: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven..." (HE is giving them the keys (the Gospel) to His Kingdom!).

Clearly, God's revelations to us about Himself is gradual. Note, even believing Jesus to be the Son of God, the promised Messiah, Peter didn't just figure this out by listening to Jesus' words or by watching His miracles. How did Peter know? "For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven." This is interesting on several levels - as it could have been taken by the disciples to mean that the Father had the real authority, and that as the Son, Jesus was somehow lesser in authority, wasn't fully God. But also, as it was God who had revealed this to Peter, as He'd not yet FULLY revealed to Peter about Jesus being equally God - that would only come later, fully realized after the Resurrection, which culminated in an unlocking of so many understandings that were all over the Scriptures about Jesus, but they hadn't yet picked up on it. His committed followers still didn't know, at that point, that Jesus is God - but they did believe enough to be saved, that He is the long-promised / prophesied Father's Son!

And, obviously, there are keys and revelations to come, and many things we still don't yet understand - things that will come as God desires we understand them.

[Mallz]

So, my question is for those of you who were young or at whatever point in time they consider the time of their salvation: When you came to believe in Jesus and committed your life to Him - did you have an understanding that He was MORE than God's Son - did you realize and believe He was God Himself? And did you realize and believe that the Holy Spirit is God? Flesh out what you first believed and what understanding you had, when you came to salvation.

Because I don't think a lot of people initially had those fuller understanding about Jesus or the Holy Spirit when they were first authentically saved. Of course, much off even those basic understandings one had at salvation are denied by the cults - meaning they believe in another, non-historical / non-Scriptural Jesus. And those same unbelievers, when they learn that Scripture teaches Jesus is God, deny it. I know I didn't fully comprehend that Jesus wasn't just the Son of God and eternal, but that He WAS / IS and always has been FULLY God, as is the Holy Spirit. But I don't believe once a person has learned what Scripture teaches about Jesus being God - that if they DENY that - I don't believe they are saved.

I grew up knowing the Spirit, the Trinity in an experiential way. My youthful knowledge of Him was perverted by the infiltration of religion into His Body. To me, the synonymous Persons of God weren't as distinct to me as to be confused by the Personhoods of God = God. When I was a child (around 7), I remember being confused by explanations of the Holy Spirit vs the Father and Son. I was led to believe by a priest the Holy Spirit was the 'will' of God. And although that explanation isn't empty, it isn't revealing either, and a trap of an 'explanation'. I had rejected it knowing the Holy Spirit is God, as Jesus is, as our Father is. Dwelling in His light and the harmony of the Trinity.. That's the best way I know how to describe my childhood perception of Him and this world in small words (or how it is supposed to and will be..).

Are you putting forward that one with an ignorant understanding of God, when fully revealed Who/What God is, and rejects it, isn't saved? Do you think they were saved to begin with? Or do you think they believed a self-delusion? One even hindered by sinful nature preventing oneself from knowing Him? Due to their own desires? I don't think there is a 'point' of salvation for people, rather it is self expressive as their soul develops it's allegiance and self expression from that worldview it acquires for itself. There's always a wayward son, and I see myself fitting that picture more than any else. I always knew Him, yet I rejected Him, and then I came back to Him. But I've always been in His hands, but have not always realized it, or Him at times in my life due to my own self delusion.

I know those who believe in Him, and know Him for Who/What He is. But with not much knowledge or understanding of theology and philosophy. More of a simple faith, but sure, pure and strong. And I'll see the beauty of His simplicity through those gems. Are they better off than bereans? I think that sort of thought is worldly, wrong and a distraction from Him. Although He loves to be explored and desires it, I'll see His Wind flow from simple, obstinate faith, rather than explaining Him away where I see His Spirit being grieved in inaction and traditions. And growing in Him happens in interacting with Him as He leads you into Himself. The Bible is great, but it's a foundation to Him. Some aren't capable of grasping the intellectual, wondrous complexities of Him. And I've seen confounding wisdom come from the same gems who are learning from our Love. Yet combine that faith with a Berean desire, surely speeds up your growth in Him.

My .2c worth if it followed your inquiry.

[Philip]

Mallz: I don't think there is a 'point' of salvation for people, rather it is self expressive as their soul develops it's allegiance and self expression from that worldview it acquires for itself.

I have no idea what the last part of that statement means. But Scripture does say there is a point in which people are not yet saved, and afterward they are - this is the moment the Holy Spirit indwells the Believer and it is ETERNAL. But God chose all Christians before time, and woos and guides all willing into faith and salvation. This choosing of God is not absent a person's personal desire choose Jesus as opposed to rejecting Him. And ultimately, the moment our salvation was made POSSIBLE, and certain for all eventually so willing and desirous to follow Jesus, was the moment He died on the Cross.

And I am saying that a person can be saved if they have a simple faith in the Gospel and Jesus - and that this can happen before they understand more fully exactly WHO Jesus is: God!

[Mallz]

I have no idea what the last part of that statement means. But Scripture does say there is a point in which people are not yet saved, and afterward they are - this is the moment the Holy Spirit indwells the Believer and it is ETERNAL. But God chose all Christians before time, and woos and guides all willing into faith and salvation. This choosing of God is not absent a person's personal desire choose Jesus as opposed to rejecting Him. And ultimately, the moment our salvation was made POSSIBLE, and certain for all eventually so willing and desirous to follow Jesus, was the moment He died on the Cross.

And I am saying that a person can be saved if they have a simple faith in the Gospel and Jesus - and that this can happen before they understand more fully exactly WHO Jesus is: God!

So, where do you fall in your perspective with grace? If someone has the HS, can he then blaspheme Him in rejection?

[Philip]

Mallz: So, where do you fall in your perspective with grace? If someone has the HS, can he then blaspheme Him in rejection?

A person who has the Holy Spirit has already entered into eternal life - they are saved. It's not a matter of can they, but a matter that they won't! Once saved, the deal is sealed. It's a work of Christ. And it's not called ETERNAL life for nothing!

The Apostle Paul: "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Philippians 1:6). How could Paul have this confidence that God "WILL bring it to completion?" Is it because he thinks his audience of believers is special and strong in their faith, that THEY will persevere to the end? NO! Because sustaining salvation is not OUR responsibility. We can't save ourselves, much less sustain ourselves in our faith. No, Paul's confidence was rooted in WHOM it is Who WILL complete our salvation - the very same One who BEGAN it: God / Christ / Holy Spirit!

Read through this: http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/s ... iever.html

[Mallz]

Right, I'm familiar with OSAS and eternal security.
The problem would be how would one ever know where they stand, then?
I've been in His hands from birth, and He sure has done some things to keep me there, even against my own willful obstinance. But this is through experience. Reasoning it out seems much more difficult because I see it coming down to someone is either delusional or saved. Philippians 2:12 and others come to mind.. In another thread floating around here there was a mention of believing in The Jesus vs a jesus. How about those believing in a jesus through ignorance? And this is where what I said might get to the heart of it. We steer ourselves or are steered by Him. It seems our lives are an accumulation of Philippians 2:12 and the answer is much more personal than academic.

I don't know of any one point where there was a realization of salvation. I did have a moment in my life where I understood profoundly that He had been with me my entire life and suffered with me through all the BS I would make Him go through (because He allowed it).

It would seem that a hyper grace position is the more plausible? But then that begets a very dangerous ground of being delusional vs saved. Which would be fine, and then you could point to a moment, if you could. I'm just still not convinced over it, even though for myself I know it's not possible for me to blaspheme the HS, He won't let me (because He knows my heart), or I'm a lost delusional fool

[Kurieuo]

I fear some confuse the "who" Jesus is with the "what" Jesus is. The difference is perhaps inline with "heart" compared to "rationality". Akin to the implicit trust a naive "child" gives, versus the place of understanding that an educated "adult" must come to in order to embrace.

At 17 years, I knew who Jesus, but I didn't know ontologically what Jesus was. On Rich's quiz I didn't know the correct answers surrounding Jesus' nature.

Was I saved? Some would say no, I would say yes.