How Do YOU engage YEC vs. OEC?

[Philip]

I have a question about how those of you here respond to a person when the OEC / YEC controversy comes up with a fellow Christian. But first, the setup:

I had an interesting exchange today at church. I started talking to a fellow I was somewhat acquainted and found out that he is an online science and mathematics teacher. And somehow we got to talking about the age of the earth / universe and day's in the Genesis Creation accounts. I did not bring that up, but I did mention how Hugh Ross and Reasons.org had ignited in me, some 25 years or more ago, a tremendous interest in science and the extraordinary details of how God made the universe. I mentioned that the evidences are so powerful that all should teach their children of the impossibility of our existence without a Creator. And so this guy spontaneously - without me mentioning the issue - "Well, I'm a young earther." I never once mentioned that I have an old earth / universe perspective. But he appeared to sense that (probably because I mentioned Hugh Ross). And his demeanor began to change, as this age issue was obviously enormously important to him. I casually mentioned that I believe what ultimately matters is NOT how old those "days" of Creation were, but that they required God, and that what really matters for us is what we can definitely know, as to all that God began to communicate to us, starting with His interactions with Adam.

Further, I asked this acquaintance whether he had attended the Dr. Johnny Miller talks (at my church) about his book (^{https://www.amazon.com/Beginning-We-Misunderstood-Interpreting-Original-ebook/dp/B008RLPSTC}) concerning the Genesis creation accounts, and what they might be communicating would appear to not be scientific understandings. His response was that he was very disappointed that Miller was even given a forum on the topic, and that he had been very vocal about expressing that Miller's views (supposedly) contradicted what Genesis "plainly" conveys. So, I could tell that there was a cynicism and attitude change that I might (though I didn't state it) harbor OEC views, or have entertained in the slightest what Johnny Miller has written about.

So, that's the setup.

My questions: How do YOU, if you are a Christian, respond to other Christians who might have a difference of opinion than you have, whenever this OEC vs. YEC topic comes up.? Do you even engage in it? Do you avoid debating it? Do you make a big deal over trying to make a case for how you view it?

Note, I teach small groups, and I do so by first acknowledging my old universe perspective, depending upon what is being discussed, while also emphasizing that the TIME length of the days before and after Adam's creation should be a FAR more minor issue amongst Christians. And that I truly hate the raging debate, hard feelings and divisiveness that this topic often produces. I will only ever go into the details of what I believe and why if the person I'm discussing them with is mature, relaxed, and doesn't immediately put up a wall as if we are in opposing camps on some heretical vs. God-honoring views of what they might assert to be a "crucial doctrinal issue that shows whether or not I believe what Scripture actually says." I really bothers me whenever this OEC vs. YEC topic can't be discussed with a relaxed, respectful and non-judgemental attitude (of the other person's trust of Scripture as being God's Word). It's why I attempt to pre-empt this topic from developing into an argument in the groups I lead, by first stating that I USED to get all worked up over this topic, until I matured and evolved my understandings to realize that a lot of great Christians have a different view of this than I do, especially as I began to realize just how destructive the issue can be to relationships between Christians.

The only time I might get opinionated or a bit huffy is when someone suggests that people with old earth / universe views don't believe Scripture is true or God-given - which is simply not true. Or if they assert I only have a OEC perspective due to my (supposed) belief in Darwinism / evolution - which I do not believe in (I'm a progressive creationist). So, I think the key to having a friendly, civil discussion over the issue has to do with what weight one gives its importance - does the other Christian think its mostly an interesting debate, or do they give it great weight and get snippy about it what it says about my beliefs and respect for God's Word.

[RickD]

You walked right into that one!

Good luck with that conversation.

Rule number 1:
Don't ever, ever, mention the name Hugh Ross, unless you are sure that you are talking to someone other than a YEC.


I suggest finding a way to change the subject to something far less controversial, like politics. Or, maybe talk about how excited you are about the upcoming Gamecocks season.

Maybe I can come visit, and I can have a talk with him. I'm really good with people!

[Philip]

Oh, Ricky - I'm gonna have to have another talk with your girlfriend Ronny!

[RickD]

All kidding aside*, my point is that in my experience, I've found the age of the earth debate to be a very touchy subject. Mentioning anything positive about Hugh Ross to a yec, is like saying something nice about Donald Trump, to a Liberal. You're most likely going to get an emotional response.

I usually stay away from the topic of the age of the earth, unless I feel someone really wants to have a reasonable discussion about it. I really don't like pushing emotional topics with acquaintances.


But now that you've already begun the discussion with this guy, what's you're next move? Are you going to insult Ken Ham to his face? If you do, please have someone record it on their phone, and send me the video.


*

[Philip]

Well, I did show immense self control when he mentioned blood being found in T-Rex bones.

[RickD]

Well, I did show immense self control when he mentioned blood being found in T-Rex bones.

They did find what appear to be blood vessels in T Rex bones, a while back. He probably just got confused thinking blood was blood vessels. That's an honest mistake that any layman could make. It's not like he was a scientist or science teacher making that mistake...


I think you owe it to this guy, and need to make it up to him somehow. Maybe you can offer to take him to the ark encounter. I'm sure you two would have a lot to discuss after visiting there!

[Philip]

Rick, seriously, this is a really nice fellow - but he did get that stubborn, bit irritated, bit smug look on his face as he declared his YEChood. What I took away from the encounter is what I have in similar encounters here on the forum - that his irritation is more than merely being about \\the debate over the time of the days issue. With this fellow, I think he's likely bought into AIG's widely made assertions that people with OEC views somehow are questioning the truth or reliability of God's Word. Or, perhaps worse, that he associates long days with belief in evolution - neither of which I stated I believe. But on both sides of the OEC / YEC divide, I often see anger that goes well beyond the time issue.

Neither OECs or YECs like to be tagged with whatever false beliefs might be assigned to what they believe about the length of the days. YECs blanch at being merely seen as merely ignorant literalists that ignore the other genres of Scripture. Or that they are scientific illiterates akin to flat earthers (FECs). OECs, as noted, hate being tagged as questioning Scripture, or that they don't take it seriously, or that they have bought into humanism, Darwinism, or "Godless evolution." It also tends to be a male thing - I hardly ever hear of women so intense about this issue - so is it an ego thing, that if someone thinks they are wrong about this issue, it somehow says something about their honesty, intelligence or integrity?

I don't know much about OECs spreading false assertions about YECs, but I do know that AIG has long painted OECs as "Scriptural compromisers," and by insinuation, not quite as spiritually mature or Biblically literate. I do know this, unless directly slandered or insulted, when people have to get all huffy and disagreeable over this issue, it makes me wonder how much confidence they have in what they believe or know about it. As if they are confident in their own views, and if they value being considerate and polite in civil interactions to people merely conveying their own politely made thoughts, all of the steam, smoke and hubris, they shouldn't get so ticked off over ideas they just happen to disagree over. This is what has made me believe that having an accurate take on the length of time of the Genesis "days" isn't nearly as important as I once thought. What IS important is that the Creation required God, was impossible without Him, and that only what God communicated post His interactions with Adam should really matter to us. Are we really so hung up over the creation time length per the actions of an eternal Being for Whom time is but a tool? As HOW is the length of time important to either us or God? For us, whatever length of time transpired to Adam's creation changes nothing for us - certainly not anything crucial for us to theologically understand. And for eternal God - Who created time itself - it's irrelevant.

[RickD]

Rick, seriously, this is a really nice fellow - but he did get that stubborn, bit irritated, bit smug look on his face as he declared his YEChood. What I took away from the encounter is what I have in similar encounters here on the forum - that his irritation is more than merely being about \\the debate over the time of the days issue. With this fellow, I think he's likely bought into AIG's widely made assertions that people with OEC views somehow are questioning the truth or reliability of God's Word. Or, perhaps worse, that he associates long days with belief in evolution - neither of which I stated I believe. But on both sides of the OEC / YEC divide, I often see anger that goes well beyond the time issue.

Neither OECs or YECs like to be tagged with whatever false beliefs might be assigned to what they believe about the length of the days. YECs blanch at being merely seen as merely ignorant literalists that ignore the other genres of Scripture. Or that they are scientific illiterates akin to flat earthers (FECs). OECs, as noted, hate being tagged as questioning Scripture, or that they don't take it seriously, or that they have bought into humanism, Darwinism, or "Godless evolution." It also tends to be a male thing - I hardly ever hear of women so intense about this issue - so is it an ego thing, that if someone thinks they are wrong about this issue, it somehow says something about their honesty, intelligence or integrity?

I don't know much about OECs spreading false assertions about YECs, but I do know that AIG has long painted OECs as "Scriptural compromisers, " and by insinuation, not quite as spiritually mature or Biblically literate. I do know this, unless directly slandered or insulted, when people have to get all huffy and disagreeable over this issue, it makes me wonder how much confidence they have in what they believe or know about it. As if they are confident in their own views, and if they value being considerate and polite in civil interactions to people merely conveying their own politely made thoughts, all of the steam, smoke and hubris, they shouldn't get so ticked off over ideas they just happen to disagree over. This is what has made me believe that having an accurate take on the length of time of the Genesis "days" isn't nearly as important as I once thought. What IS important is that the Creation required God, was impossible without Him, and that only what God communicated post His interactions with Adam should really matter to us. Are we really so hung up over the creation time length per the actions of an eternal Being for Whom time is but a tool? As HOW is the length of time important to either us or God? For us, whatever length of time transpired to Adam's creation changes nothing for us - certainly not anything crucial for us to theologically understand. And for eternal God - Who created time itself - it's irrelevant.

Sounds like you should take this nice fellow and go see Ken Ham at the Ark Encounter. Your post sounds very convincing to me. Maybe you can be the one to get Mr. Ham to see the light.

I've Stopped being so passionate about OEC/YEC debates. Like you, I just don't feel like it's as important as I used to.

It's a very divisive topic. YECs just can't admit they're wrong.

[Philip]

Seriously, what would you say that YECs could reasonably and accurately be upset that OECs distort about their beliefs - per their accurate criticisms?

[Kurieuo]

People will react how they react, I see no reason to control that. If they ask what I believe, I'd tell them. If they affront what I believe, I'd attempt to put them in their place. If they go cross-eyed in just friendly talking, then they likely have very many other problems they need to deal with too.

There is no real reason to force a discussion with someone, especially if it'll divide. They're not about to change their minds on the matter, and neither are you. So if you do want to talk with such a person, then talk about something that you have more in common on. That's often the best place to start any discussion with someone.

Then again, some of the best discussions with another person are those with a bit of conflict where both sides are passionate about their beliefs, and then you both go home to grind your axes for the next bout.

[B. W.]

I have a question about how those of you here respond to a person when the OEC / YEC controversy comes up with a fellow Christian...

With extra strength Tylenol !!!!

How else?


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[abelcainsbrother]

IMO YEC's remind me of the Pharisees who were against Jesus when it comes to creationism.They have made their creation interpretation equivalent to the gospel.YEC is elevated that high,so you should first understand this when engaging with a YEC.It is a cult mentality. To be honest in my everyday life it rarely ever comes up when I'm around other Christians in my life,but if,and when it does I will get into it with them and try to explain why I reject YEC and belief in an old earth,and specifically "The Gap Theory".

I'm like I am on this forum and I am always respectful and always show brotherly or sisterly love to them.I just try to let the bible to the talking for me and I do not get emotional,or heated because we disagree.I just show them why I'm right biblically and that is all I can do.As in all debates it can get frustrating when you feel like you've shown them by the word of God why you're right and they are wrong and not even God's word will change their mind but I will still try if it comes up.

Where I mostly have engaged with them is on-line and they lose control,get emotional and angry over it and they fail to realize it is just their opinion and not what God's word actually says and reveals to us.And when and if they do use scripture it is taken out of context most of the time and it is like they get angrier when you explain why they are taking the verse out of context and refuse to repent giving me their opinion on it,instead of going by what God's word actually says and reveals. Like for instance,they will keep on believing this world perished in Noah's flood eventhough it is not true biblically.

I have even had them use a different translation of the bible than I'm using to ignore the biblical facts I'm telling them and showing them in order to get a translation to say it like they want it too,reminds me of itching ears,but I've had them do it.So I have learned how to defend the Gap theory using most any translation of the bible.

I even try to point out how they have been battling evolutionists since about the 1970's and evolution is more believable based on the evidence and that YEC is only believable if you believe that interpretation.I try to tell them that if you really wanted to destroy the evolution lie you should be using The Gap theory instead,but it seems they want to keep doing the same thing over nd over,expecting to get different results.

Because I use to be a YEC I know and understand where the differences are between YEC and the GT and so I try to go in that direction.I actually like to discuss creationism and don't mind it but I hate it when they get angry over a different interpretation.I mean it is no different than pre-trib,post trib,or no rapture,or different prophecy interpretations,etc but YEC's don't see it that way when it comes to creationism. I cannot wait until Jesus tells them the Gap Theory is true,though.

[neo-x]

How Do YOU engage YEC vs. OEC?

You don't. Nothing comes out of that discussion usually. Or evolution vs. creationism for that matter.

[bkudrle]

I know this is an old thread, but I have just recently discovered this website and so I am enjoying reading through many of these discussions. I have also thought about this question about discussions with YEC believers after having a discussion with some people of the YEC persuasion. I came up with a summary of how I feel about it and posted it on my website at https://big.bible/a-time-for-rejoicing- ... and-peace/. Like ablecainsbrother, I use to be YEC because I thought that was what I should believe as a Bible-believing Christian. Then I found RTB and began to realize how much sense it made and how beautiful it was to once again bring back the harmony between Biblical Christianity and science. In that article I try to express the positive aspect of YEC and how it had its place in our society for a time. It was a definite improvement compared to the materialistic evolution theory that seemed to be the scientific alternative. But the evidence grows by the day for the harmony between the Scriptures and science and I believe that we need to embrace that as God's gift to us. To me, it is such beautiful evidence of the working of the LORD in bringing peace where there was once disharmony and discord. And all the praise will be His. Hopefully from that perspective it is something that YEC believers can embrace as well.