Nephilim -Mark 12:25

[Stu]

And the underlying point is that they can't breed with humans anymore than a cat and a human can.

And you know this how?? You just stated that you don't know how they are designed yet in the next breath you say you do know. Come now you contradict yourself. Just admit that you don't know.

[RickD]

Um and you know this how exactly?

If anything the Bible tells us that angels CAN become like man and eat and converse with human kind and you might not even know it.

Because angels don't have dna. Its a molecule that self replicates and is formed of proteins. So unless angels are reproducing angels, they don't have dna. Otherwise they would.

When angels take human form what does the body consist of then? How is it designed?

I don't know but I do know it isn't made up of dna. Because dna molecules have expiry dates built in, and is vulnerable. We age, we get sick, we die.

So an angel in human form can get flu or cancer if that is what they are made up of. Would you agree?

No, they could've been designed like we were in the past - to live to 900 years old.
Point is, we simply don't know.

But again according to Genesis 6 angels mated with human women. Some say otherwise.

Stu,

Do you think good, unfallen angels mated with human women?

[Stu]

Because angels don't have dna. Its a molecule that self replicates and is formed of proteins. So unless angels are reproducing angels, they don't have dna. Otherwise they would.

When angels take human form what does the body consist of then? How is it designed?

I don't know but I do know it isn't made up of dna. Because dna molecules have expiry dates built in, and is vulnerable. We age, we get sick, we die.

So an angel in human form can get flu or cancer if that is what they are made up of. Would you agree?

No, they could've been designed like we were in the past - to live to 900 years old.
Point is, we simply don't know.

But again according to Genesis 6 angels mated with human women. Some say otherwise.

Stu,

Do you think good, unfallen angels mated with human women?

No, of course not.

[RickD]

When angels take human form what does the body consist of then? How is it designed?

I don't know but I do know it isn't made up of dna. Because dna molecules have expiry dates built in, and is vulnerable. We age, we get sick, we die.

So an angel in human form can get flu or cancer if that is what they are made up of. Would you agree?

No, they could've been designed like we were in the past - to live to 900 years old.
Point is, we simply don't know.

But again according to Genesis 6 angels mated with human women. Some say otherwise.

Stu,

Do you think good, unfallen angels mated with human women?

No, of course not.

Can you show from scripture, anywhere in the OT or NT, that backs up your claim that the term 'sons of God' refers to fallen angels?

It would seem that in order for one to make an assertion such as you have, there'd need to be some scripture to back it up, right?

[neo-x]

Stu, that is an extraordinary claim that Angels were designed as humans. And I am telling you that while we don't know about angels we do in fact know about dna. And the traits that it carries simply don't exist in angels. It is preposterous to assume otherwise.

That being said I do agree with you that it is likely that Genesis 6 refers to angels mating with humans.

[Stu]

I don't know but I do know it isn't made up of dna. Because dna molecules have expiry dates built in, and is vulnerable. We age, we get sick, we die.

So an angel in human form can get flu or cancer if that is what they are made up of. Would you agree?

No, they could've been designed like we were in the past - to live to 900 years old.
Point is, we simply don't know.

But again according to Genesis 6 angels mated with human women. Some say otherwise.

Stu,

Do you think good, unfallen angels mated with human women?

No, of course not.

Can you show from scripture, anywhere in the OT or NT, that backs up your claim that the term 'sons of God' refers to fallen angels?

It would seem that in order for one to make an assertion such as you have, there'd need to be some scripture to back it up, right?

Are you saying that fallen angels can't be referred to as sons of God? Why do you say that.

Just because the Bible only refers to fallen angels once as sons of God doesn't mean it doesn't apply to them. Add to that the Bible really doesn't refer to fallen angels at all, only Satan.

[DBowling]

Just because the Bible only refers to fallen angels once as sons of God doesn't mean it doesn't apply to them.

The problem is... that is a factually untrue statement...
Scripture never refers to fallen angels as sons/children of God... not even once.

That's a key problem with the human/angel hybrid theory.

[RickD]

Stu wrote:
Are you saying that fallen angels can't be referred to as sons of God? Why do you say that.

No, I'm not saying that fallen angels can't be referred to as sons of God. I'm simply asking for evidence from scripture that sons of God refers to fallen angels. I don't understand why some people have a difficult time understanding that there's a real problem when someone makes a claim/doctrine about something in scripture, when there's nothing in scripture that backs that claim.

Just because the Bible only refers to fallen angels once as sons of God doesn't mean it doesn't apply to them. Add to that the Bible really doesn't refer to fallen angels at all, only Satan.

Ok good, you do have a verse that says sons of God can refer to fallen angels. You can settle this whole discussion now, by posting the verse. And for the love of God, I know you're not stupid enough to post the verses in Genesis 6 that are under question.

[Stu]

We're going around in circles here guys. Let's agree to disagree.

[PaulSacramento]

And the underlying point is that they can't breed with humans anymore than a cat and a human can.

Well, we don't know that, at all.
We do know that they can appear to be human but to what degree, we don't know.
We know that the ancients ( at least some) believed that that some angels mated with human females and produced giants, which means that some didn't see that as an impossibility.

[neo-x]

Given that the ancients probably had wrong ideas about a lot of things it is safe to say they would obviously find it probable that a human and angel could breed.

If an angel can become human to a degree that he can produce viable dna to pass on to the female, who will he take it from?
Humans, you and me get half of our chromosomes from our mother and half from our father. No offspring has his own dna. It is the collective of its parents and they get their from their respective parents and ancestors.

So the female gets hers from her parents but where would the angel gets his? He doesn't have parents. So even if does transform to be a human, he can't pass on genes, he doesn't Have any.

[RickD]

We're going around in circles here guys. Let's agree to disagree.

First off, this is Mallz' thread. He wants us to understand his perspective, and to get us to help him understand ours.

And second, until you stop asserting doctrine without biblical proof, you are going to get responses that ask you to back up your assertions.


Btw, I'm still waiting for scripture that says fallen angels can be called sons of God. Should I stop holding my breath, or do you have that verse for me?

[RickD]

Stu, that is an extraordinary claim that Angels were designed as humans. And I am telling you that while we don't know about angels we do in fact know about dna. And the traits that it carries simply don't exist in angels. It is preposterous to assume otherwise.

That being said I do agree with you that it is likely that Genesis 6 refers to angels mating with humans.

So, let's see if I got this...

You're saying that angels cannot mate with humans, but you also think the Bible says they did?

Further, are you saying that even if you believe scripture says something happened, it doesn't matter, because it may not have happened that way anyways?

[Philip]

Paul: Well, we don't know that, at all.
We do know that they can appear to be human but to what degree, we don't know.
We know that the ancients ( at least some) believed that that some angels mated with human females and produced giants, which means that some didn't see that as an impossibility.

Were there angel / human hybrids? Who the heck truly knows? I tend to doubt it. One thing - Scripture says these sons of God were ATTRACTED to the daughters of men because they were beautiful. Angels seem to be asexual beings - would they be attracted to human females? This is a different matter than them merely pursuing them to sow evil.

Mostly, I'm scratching my head over the passion behind this debate. People love to argue over largely irrelevant if obscure things in Scripture. Because, to us, WHY DOES IT MATTER ONE BIT, other than our mere curiosity? Because whatever the case, God decided o wipe out humanity (to whatever degree) due to its great, continuous and widespread evil. And so, whether some other portion of humanity beyond the region was spared or whether the entirety of humanity was killed, A) we know the reason behind the Flood and B) we know that God's line of Adam to Christ, through Noah, was saved. So, how does getting the Angel / human question right really matter - as it changes nothing important for us today. And I agree that we have to be careful about asserting this or that as certain, if Scripture doesn't clearly reveal it to be - ESPECIALLY if we use extra-Biblical sources to determine its truth - a dangerous thing, in my mind. Because while there may be some historical facts in a non-Biblical source, we can't know which parts might also have inaccuracies in them.

[RickD]

Paul: Well, we don't know that, at all.
We do know that they can appear to be human but to what degree, we don't know.
We know that the ancients ( at least some) believed that that some angels mated with human females and produced giants, which means that some didn't see that as an impossibility.

Were there angel / human hybrids? Who the heck truly knows? I tend to doubt it. One thing - Scripture says these sons of God were ATTRACTED to the daughters of men because they were beautiful. Angels seem to be asexual beings - would they be attracted to human females? This is a different matter than them merely pursuing them to sow evil.

Mostly, I'm scratching my head over the passion behind this debate. People love to argue over largely irrelevant if obscure things in Scripture. Because, to us, WHY DOES IT MATTER ONE BIT, other than our mere curiosity? Because whatever the case, God decided o wipe out humanity (to whatever degree) due to its great, continuous and widespread evil. And so, whether some other portion of humanity beyond the region was spared or whether the entirety of humanity was killed, A) we know the reason behind the Flood and B) we know that God's line of Adam to Christ, through Noah, was saved. So, how does getting the Angel / human question right really matter - as it changes nothing important for us today. And I agree that we have to be careful about asserting this or that as certain, if Scripture doesn't clearly reveal it to be - ESPECIALLY if we use extra-Biblical sources to determine its truth - a dangerous thing, in my mind. Because while there may be some historical facts in a non-Biblical source, we can't know which parts might also have inaccuracies in them.

Looks like we've convinced Philip to be on our side!

PaulS is halfway there, and Mallz seems open if he can be convinced.

See, this is a productive thread!