Caught In Hail Storm

[BavarianWheels]

Bav, don't you think you're being a bit harsh to Rick? Judaizer is like my calling Rick a Calvinist. Yes, it's a name, label or what-have-you, but it tells us something about what a person believes.

No...certainly not in the context he chose to call me one. Sure, I can see that using a term like "Judaizer" could tell someone about their beliefs, but he already has something against Adventists for promoting a belief he doesn't share...and he's not willing to engage in some sort of establishing HIS OWN reasons for believing when he clearly said he could put up texts.

He meant, by calling me a Judaizer, that I was or that Adventists are out to force everyone back into Jewish Law...and as I've said, that is a gross mischaracterization ESPECIALLY since we do not serve a different Savior, but a JEWISH carpenter named Jesus...who incidentally never broke the Sabbath command, but instead, "...as was his custom."

See here:

Stick to the issue please. There's no sarcasm intended here. There's no condescending tone either.
A judaizer is someone who tries to make non-Jews, follow Jewish customs, or laws. You are trying to get believers to follow Jewish laws. That makes you a judaizer, by definition.

If you don't want to continue, that's your prerogative. I'm not going to make you discuss something you don't want to discuss. But I'm not going to sugar coat the issue either. I'm not questioning your salvation, I'm questioning your beliefs as far as SDA doctrine, and the SDA doctrine itself.

Categorically false! It's a deliberate LIE! The Sabbath is no more "Jewish" than the Do Not Murder law is "Jewish"...and I don't see anyone complaining about attempting to keep that law or any other of the 9.

It is only insulting if you take exception to it, but then it is far from clear to Rick, and even myself, that to some extent SDA theology (which you subscribe to) isn't. Getting upset and making attacks on how it's unbecoming of Rick as a mod to call you such, a label he thinks describes your position, isn't the way to go. And putting down mods in general isn't really acceptable behaviour if you have an issue, nor would I see is it a good Christian thing to do.

When did I put down the mods in general. I've only mentioned Rick in these. He's the only one that is a mod and that called me a name HE INTENDED as derogatory. If I were to call everyone by what I FEEL labels everyone, I don't think that would go over well here nor in society at large. That's why there are rules and I would assume those rules apply to mods as much as they apply to the regular folk. RickD is VERY sarcastic and inserts useless comments into just about every single post that lands on this forum...which explains his post count. Though he will not engage in a discussion on a biblical matter EXCEPT to call names, threaten he can prove his belief, then step aside and link a differing conversation?

Rick so-far-as I see hasn't done anything wrong here. Sure, he adds sarcasm from time-to-time, but many like it and I see nothing wrong with such also. Try lighten up a little, don't be so serious. Perhaps should first start with your understanding of what a judaizer is vs Rick's. That seems more productive, I see no need for you to feel necessarily insulted over such.

I know you don't find anything wrong with it and it may stem from a belief that I am a Judaizer. As I said in a post that RickD asked how he should approach this thought and I said there's nothing wrong with making a general statement about my position and/or the SDA position, but there is something wrong, IMHO, with name-calling in the context he did. If it is the case that my feelings do not matter, then so be it.

I'm the lightest person around and can spar with RickD in sarcasm and jokes, but when one comes at me by name-calling and running away from doing a bit of actual thinking for a post ( something he readily admits he does seldom...which as a mod, I think is a bit sad considering the forum we are on ), then I have an issue.

RickD made it clear what he feels a Judaizer is...and that is someone trying to make everyone follow Jewish law.

First we have:

Ultimately, the sabbath laws pointed forward to Christ. He is our sabbath rest. By still trying to obey the sabbath, in essence, you are denying that Christ's finished work is efficacious. Just like those who observe Passover, which was also pointing forward to Christ.

That is completely false. What's the proof that this is completely false? Does trying to obey the Do Not Murder law deny Christ's finished work? If yes, then I stand corrected. If no, then 2 things; 1. Neither is keeping the Sabbath and the Sabbath law and 2. the Do Not Murder law are equal in their demand of God to keep...for righteousness. ( NOT that we can anyway, but just because we can't keep the law perfect, doesn't mean we "nullify" the law )

Then we have this condescending tone:

Is the book of Galatians left out of the SDA bible?
I suggest you reread the book, and maybe you can see that Christians are not under the law.
If you'd like me to post specific passages, I can.

...as if I and any SDA are stupid? Just puts his following comments and name-calling into perspective.

Next we have:

No more joking around! We have a bigger problem than holy potato chips. BavarianWheels seems to have completely ignored the book of Galatians (among others), which testifies against his belief that Christians should be following the law given to the nation of Israel.

...which is again RickD making a statement he will not, and I say he cannot, prove biblically. He must prove that there were Jews at creation and explain the creation wording of the Law and Day God made holy as God's words/reason is recorded for us and in Exodus 20, reiterated to the meaning of the Sabbath. There were no Jews present on the 7th day of creation to make it a Jewish law!

Then here's the kicker:

And there's your problem. I'm not saying the law is removed. Christians were never under the law, so to say it was removed, is not the issue.

The law was given to the nation of Israel. The physical nation of Israel. Not spiritual Israel.

God still has plans for Israel. The church has not replaced Israel.

Would you like me to post specific verses to show you that Christians are not under the law?

I figured that since you are an SDA, you would've heard the arguments against your judaizing beliefs by now.

He's already given us the manner in which to think of me and SDA's and that is by condescending tone and that we are somehow stupid for ignoring Galatians etc...then says "your Judaizing beliefs..."

CLEARLY the context is in the same condescending tone and MEANT as derogatory BASED on his previous posts and tone! There's no denying that...and if one does, it's likely because one agrees with the labeling. And if it only takes THINKING one is X and X is meant as derogatory, then name-calling shouldn't be against the rules.

So if it is ok to label, then I expect the next time I label someone a "Nazi", I won't receive any warning by any moderator?
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[RickD]

Sounds like someone may be starting to feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit, regarding his beliefs.

[BavarianWheels]

Sounds like someone may be starting to feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit, regarding his beliefs.

Weren't you going to "shut up" about his topic since you can't and won't "put up"?
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[RickD]

Sounds like someone may be starting to feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit, regarding his beliefs.

Weren't you going to "shut up" about his topic since you can't and won't "put up"?
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I think you're conflating your topics, just as you are conflating God instituting the sabbath rest, and giving Israel a specific law regarding how to observe the sabbath. In other words, I said I would shut up about the topic, in the Jac3510 thread, not this one.

And further, I already explained to you multiple times that I did "put up" in the old sabbath day thread. Did you understand that? WE HAVE ALREADY HAD THE DISCUSSION, AND YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH WHAT I SAID. SO HOW WOULD MY REPEATING WHAT I SAID, GET YOU TO AGREE WITH ME THIS TIME?

Do you understand that? Yes or no?

[BavarianWheels]

Sounds like someone may be starting to feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit, regarding his beliefs.

Weren't you going to "shut up" about his topic since you can't and won't "put up"?
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I think you're conflating your topics, just as you are conflating God instituting the sabbath rest, and giving Israel a specific law regarding how to observe the sabbath. In other words, I said I would shut up about the topic, in the Jac3510 thread, not this one.

You'll make statements, just not back them up.

How convenient.
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[RickD]

Sounds like someone may be starting to feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit, regarding his beliefs.

Weren't you going to "shut up" about his topic since you can't and won't "put up"?
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I think you're conflating your topics, just as you are conflating God instituting the sabbath rest, and giving Israel a specific law regarding how to observe the sabbath. In other words, I said I would shut up about the topic, in the Jac3510 thread, not this one.

You'll make statements, just not back them up.

How convenient.
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Read the paragraph I added to my last post.

[BavarianWheels]

Sounds like someone may be starting to feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit, regarding his beliefs.

Weren't you going to "shut up" about his topic since you can't and won't "put up"?
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I think you're conflating your topics, just as you are conflating God instituting the sabbath rest, and giving Israel a specific law regarding how to observe the sabbath. In other words, I said I would shut up about the topic, in the Jac3510 thread, not this one.

You'll make statements, just not back them up.

How convenient.
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Read the paragraph I added to my last post.

How about you prove, biblically, that the Sabbath is a "Jewish" law, as you claim...start by providing evidence that there were Jews present that it even could be "Jewish" on the 7th day of creation.
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[RickD]

Weren't you going to "shut up" about his topic since you can't and won't "put up"?
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I think you're conflating your topics, just as you are conflating God instituting the sabbath rest, and giving Israel a specific law regarding how to observe the sabbath. In other words, I said I would shut up about the topic, in the Jac3510 thread, not this one.

You'll make statements, just not back them up.

How convenient.
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Read the paragraph I added to my last post.

How about you prove, biblically, that the Sabbath is a "Jewish" law, as you claim...start by providing evidence that there were Jews present that it even could be "Jewish" on the 7th day of creation.
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Again,

You are conflating:
1)God's blessing the 7th day and making it holy, with
2)God giving the law to Israel with specific instructions on how they should observe the law regarding the sabbath.

Until you can see the difference between the two, and stop conflating them, you will be stuck in your error.

Edit:

Bav,

I want to ask you for one thing. As a Brother in Christ, I ask you to pray about this. Ask God to show you what I am saying about your conflating the two things I mentioned above. Please ask God to show you what I'm saying, and be open to what He shows you.

[BavarianWheels]

I think you're conflating your topics, just as you are conflating God instituting the sabbath rest, and giving Israel a specific law regarding how to observe the sabbath. In other words, I said I would shut up about the topic, in the Jac3510 thread, not this one.

You'll make statements, just not back them up.

How convenient.
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Read the paragraph I added to my last post.

How about you prove, biblically, that the Sabbath is a "Jewish" law, as you claim...start by providing evidence that there were Jews present that it even could be "Jewish" on the 7th day of creation.
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Again,

You are conflating:
1)God's blessing the 7th day and making it holy, with
2)God giving the law to Israel with specific instructions on how they should observe the law regarding the sabbath.

Until you can see the difference between the two, and stop conflating them, you will be stuck in your error.

Wrong.

Every single person was present at creation in the Adam and Eve.

Until YOU can see that, you will be stuck in YOUR error.
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[RickD]

Bav,

Look at my edit in my last post. Please, do me that favor.

[BavarianWheels]

Bav,

Look at my edit in my last post. Please, do me that favor.

I will.

Will you pray on the simple question of who was present at creation when God instituted and made the 7th day holy...a day HE even rested on...as if God needs rest?

I'm more than willing to look at anything you present if you're willing to look at scripture through unbiased eyes.

If we would just stop...and think for one moment. We believe that the Adam and Eve doomed all of humanity through their one sin...why then can we not think in the same manner that God gave the Sabbath to all of humanity through the Adam and Eve. Is it impossible to think logically simply because it is "Adventist" and we've been taught that legalism is bad? Legalism isn't bad, if it were, God wouldn't have a RIGHTEOUS LAW. What's bad about legalism is the context on puts on it...it's bad when we rely ON THE LAW and the KEEPING of it FOR OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. It's not bad if we understand that the law was put into place to point AT sin, if it was against what the law demands.
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[RickD]

BavarianWheels wrote:
If we would just stop...and think for one moment. We believe that the Adam and Eve doomed all of humanity through their one sin...why then can we not think in the same manner that God gave the Sabbath to all of humanity through the Adam and Eve. Is it impossible to think logically simply because it is "Adventist" and we've been taught that legalism is bad? Legalism isn't bad, if it were, God wouldn't have a RIGHTEOUS LAW. What's bad about legalism is the context on puts on it...it's bad when we rely ON THE LAW and the KEEPING of it FOR OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. It's not bad if we understand that the law was put into place to point AT sin, if it was against what the law demands.

This gets back to what I said before about you conflating two separate things.
1) God rested on the 7th day, blessed the 7th day, and made the 7th day holy...
And
2) God giving a specific law, specifically to the nation of Israel, to not only remember the sabbath day, but He also told them how to observe the sabbath.


And most importantly, we as believers have Christ, who is our sabbath rest. The OT law, the 10 commandments, and all other laws that were given by God, were given to point out sin, and to point to Christ, whose sacrifice fully atones for all sin.

Now that Christ's work is finished, there is no need for any written law, because God's law is written on a believer's heart.

But, I asked you to pray about this. Have you? You still don't see how you are conflating two separate things.

[BavarianWheels]

BavarianWheels wrote:
If we would just stop...and think for one moment. We believe that the Adam and Eve doomed all of humanity through their one sin...why then can we not think in the same manner that God gave the Sabbath to all of humanity through the Adam and Eve. Is it impossible to think logically simply because it is "Adventist" and we've been taught that legalism is bad? Legalism isn't bad, if it were, God wouldn't have a RIGHTEOUS LAW. What's bad about legalism is the context on puts on it...it's bad when we rely ON THE LAW and the KEEPING of it FOR OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. It's not bad if we understand that the law was put into place to point AT sin, if it was against what the law demands.

This gets back to what I said before about you conflating two separate things.
1) God rested on the 7th day, blessed the 7th day, and made the 7th day holy...
And
2) God giving a specific law, specifically to the nation of Israel, to not only remember the sabbath day, but He also told them how to observe the sabbath.

You have yet to show any existing JEW at creation that it was given to them specifically. Please read Genesis 2:2,3 slowly and think on each word. Think on the reasoning God gives for instituting rest on a certain day...and then tell me where in that it is deemed as a law ONLY for Jews.

And most importantly, we as believers have Christ, who is our sabbath rest. The OT law, the 10 commandments, and all other laws that were given by God, were given to point out sin, and to point to Christ, whose sacrifice fully atones for all sin.

Let's go with what you said here. Are you willing to be logical for a moment?

If the law points out sin and thus to Christ...how is it you have abandoned that which...AS YOU SAY...points out sin and thus to Christ? When did it stop doing so? Show me in scripture where it states that the law ceased to point out sin.

Rather, scripture is clear. Christ redeemed us from the CURSE of the law. Does the law curse Jesus Christ? If it does, then His death is NOT a gospel at all! Rather Christ BECAME A CURSE FOR US. He redeems us from what the law does...show us to be sinful.

Now that Christ's work is finished, there is no need for any written law, because God's law is written on a believer's heart.

Cool...and if the law points at sin, then will the believer do what is righteous ( or at least attempt to do so in that you don't seem to be one who murders, are you? ), but not as to righteousness, but BECAUSE it is in your heart to naturally do...according to the Spirit.

But, I asked you to pray about this. Have you? You still don't see how you are conflating two separate things.

I asked you the same. Have you? I don't think so because you're still not getting what we are redeemed from. We are not redeemed from keeping the law or ignoring as Christ is perfect in doing, we are redeemed from what the law says we are...sinners. Why does the law say we are sinners? Because the law...points at...sin. Your position changes that and that change is no where found in scripture.
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[BavarianWheels]

Romans 3 is central to this!

What does it mean to uphold the law if we think we are free from keeping that which makes us conscious of sin and thus points us to Christ?

What does it mean up uphold the law when we do not/should not nullify it?
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[RickD]

BavarianWheels wrote:
Every single person was present at creation in the Adam and Eve.

As I'm trying to understand your position, could you please cite scripture that shows this?

I'm assuming you are talking about Genesis 2:3, when God sanctified and blessed the 7th day.