Fix-it Ticket

[BavarianWheels]

My son recently was pulled over for a non-working headlight on his car.

He received a fix-it citation. I bought a set of headlight bulbs ( I paid $60.00 for a set of ultra-white LED bulbs this time...eek! ) and my son and I changed out the bulbs.

He returned to the police station along with the ticket and didn't realize he still had to pay the fee for the ticket. He didn't have enough $$ on him or in his acct, so he called and asked if I could/would pay for it online. I said I would. I did.

-- Is my son no longer under the law that states both headlights should be in working order?

-- I paid the price to free my son. Did that act of paying the price free him from ever having to operate a vehicle with two working headlights?
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[RickD]

I paid the price to free my son.

You had to bail your son out of jail for having headlights that don't work?

[Kurieuo]

No, and equally it doesn't prevent him from losing his freedom and getting thrown back in jail. So then, are you saying just those sins when we come to Christ are paid for, that if we repeat sinning then we're still in danger of being condemned?

[BavarianWheels]

No, and equally it doesn't prevent him from losing his freedom and getting thrown back in jail. So then, are you saying just those sins when we come to Christ are paid for, that if we repeat sinning then we're still in danger of being condemned?

If you're a sinner, you are condemned whether you're sinning or not. As a Christian sinner, we have assurance of salvation, but that doesn't mean we get to sin willy-nilly...does it?

Case-in-point. The woman caught in adultery...Jesus got rid of her accusers and asked, "Who is accusing you?" "No one" she answers. And then Jesus says, "Neither do I condemn you." "Now go and continue in adultery because you are free from keeping the law."

That's not exactly what Jesus said, is it...

If the Law makes us aware of what sin is, then to do anything that is against the 10 is to sin, is it not? Unless there's a specific word from God that removed the law as pointing at sin or removed what is sin...can you point to that text?

No, in fact Paul says we uphold the law! So if it points at sin, then it points at sin. To willfully go AGAINST the law because you interpret, "You've been set free from the power of the law" to mean you no longer have to follow or be aware of sin is to miss the whole point of being free from the curse of the law, but not free from the law itself...as Christ is not free from sinning willfully or at all. The law cannot curse Jesus because Jesus is righteous. The law cannot say, "Jesus is guilty of breaking X law." If he were, He wouldn't be the Perfect Lamb. He couldn't be a sin offering.

So if Jesus is righteous and the law is powerless to say anything against Him, then isn't he a perfect keeper of His own law? Aren't we seen through His perfect keeping of the law that we are declared righteous in His sight? If so, and that IS the gospel, isn't the law holy, righteous and true? Not just part of it, the whole of it.

We are redeemed from the CURSE of the law. Set your bias aside and simply READ the scripture. It is so plain.

If you are free from keeping any of the law, then what is keeping you from acting on murder, what is keeping you from acting on adultery, what is keeping you from taking God's name in vain...etc.?
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[Kurieuo]

No, and equally it doesn't prevent him from losing his freedom and getting thrown back in jail. So then, are you saying just those sins when we come to Christ are paid for, that if we repeat sinning then we're still in danger of being condemned?

If you're a sinner, you are condemned whether you're sinning or not. As a Christian sinner, we have assurance of salvation, but that doesn't mean we get to sin willy-nilly...does it?

There is no such thing as a Christian sinner -- for no one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. (1 John 3:6) Read that verse closely, and then tell me, do you continue sinning Bav? If you do, then according to Scripture you don't know Christ.

[RickD]

For anyone following along here, or in the other threads about sabbath keeping, I highly recommend this article.

It really puts the whole "law keeping" question into perspective, with a focus on Christ.

[BavarianWheels]

No, and equally it doesn't prevent him from losing his freedom and getting thrown back in jail. So then, are you saying just those sins when we come to Christ are paid for, that if we repeat sinning then we're still in danger of being condemned?

If you're a sinner, you are condemned whether you're sinning or not. As a Christian sinner, we have assurance of salvation, but that doesn't mean we get to sin willy-nilly...does it?

There is no such thing as a Christian sinner -- for no one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. (1 John 3:6) Read that verse closely, and then tell me, do you continue sinning Bav? If you do, then according to Scripture you don't know Christ.

You should read on past verse 6 and ask yourself how it is we know the difference between sin and not sin...then read carefully Romans 3:20 and the surrounding verses as well.

Then read through 1 Timothy 1:15 and ask yourself what tense the writer is using in conveying his sinfulness. Certainly not past tense.
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[melanie]

So today my twins teacher pulled me aside and told me that both of them were caught cheating at rock, paper, scissors in class. My first thought was jeez they’re 7 tell me the big issues, but when I spoke to them about it this arvo I told them how cheating was wrong and that I was disappointed but I was proud that they admitted their wrongdoing. They felt bad hence admitting it and whilst they know cheating isn’t the right thing to do, my son tonight whilst playing UNO was being shifty again. True story.
Now he had learnt the lesson today, was forgiven and still made the same mistake. As a parent with full knowledge that he’s a good kid but far from perfect I was left with the choice of do I forgive him again? After all he had just been pulled up on cheating earlier in the day. If I forgive him again does that mean I’m giving him licence to cheat? How many times do I forgive before I condone the act?
Well like all of us, kid and adult alike he’s learning and making mistakes so I forgave him again. In forgiving him at no time did I condone cheating or make the act somehow okay for him to do again but that’s not what the act of forgiving is. It’s not acknowledging that what they did was okay now or down the track nor is the act of forgiving a guarantee that they will never do it again it’s about love. Love endures, it’s patient and kind. We are not forgiven by God because we deserve it, it’s Grace. It’s a loving Father bestowing on His children more than what we deserve because that’s the language of love and without it we could never truly grow in our own understanding of love and forgiveness.
There’s no free pass, every time we sin there are consequences but forgiveness as easy as it flows from parent to child is manifested 10 fold in Our Father.

[BavarianWheels]

So today my twins teacher pulled me aside and told me that both of them were caught cheating at rock, paper, scissors in class. My first thought was jeez they’re 7 tell me the big issues, but when I spoke to them about it this arvo I told them how cheating was wrong and that I was disappointed but I was proud that they admitted their wrongdoing. They felt bad hence admitting it and whilst they know cheating isn’t the right thing to do, my son tonight whilst playing UNO was being shifty again. True story.
Now he had learnt the lesson today, was forgiven and still made the same mistake. As a parent with full knowledge that he’s a good kid but far from perfect I was left with the choice of do I forgive him again? After all he had just been pulled up on cheating earlier in the day. If I forgive him again does that mean I’m giving him licence to cheat? How many times do I forgive before I condone the act?
Well like all of us, kid and adult alike he’s learning and making mistakes so I forgave him again. In forgiving him at no time did I condone cheating or make the act somehow okay for him to do again but that’s not what the act of forgiving is. It’s not acknowledging that what they did was okay now or down the track nor is the act of forgiving a guarantee that they will never do it again it’s about love. Love endures, it’s patient and kind. We are not forgiven by God because we deserve it, it’s Grace. It’s a loving Father bestowing on His children more than what we deserve because that’s the language of love and without it we could never truly grow in our own understanding of love and forgiveness.
There’s no free pass, every time we sin there are consequences but forgiveness as easy as it flows from parent to child is manifested 10 fold in Our Father.

Great story. Thanks.

So you agree. Forgiveness of sins ( and that's the gospel, right? ) is not license to sin. Whatever the action was that requires forgiveness is still an action of sin.

If the law was given so that we know or become conscious of sin, then the law ALWAYS does and continues to do that job. It hasn't stopped doing so ( and if it has, point me to the act of God that says so or the word from God that he's removed law ). But God hasn't removed the law. There is no action by God like the action taken in Genesis 2:2,3 or the action of Exodus 20. God removes the guilt of sin rather than removing what IS SIN. God does not make us righteous by removing what is sin so that we are not sinners, God removes the penalty of sin so that we, through Christ's righteousness, can be declared righteous even though we are sinners. The law remains. It will remain perpetually because it points at sin.
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[Philip]

Of course, with kids, showing grace and love are key. But depending upon the level of misconduct, the loving thing is to also make them aware that there are also (hopefully appropriate) consequences. So many parents fail to rarely give consequences - which is unloving. Far better to realize them as kids than when they will later see all manner of consequences for their inappropriate actions. Way too many parents try to be their kids' PAL as opposed to their parent. Yes, we can be our children's trusted friend - but shouldn't attempt to be their pal - as there's a an important difference between the two! In the family hierarchy, our kids are not our equals and are under our authority and responsibility.

[melanie]

So today my twins teacher pulled me aside and told me that both of them were caught cheating at rock, paper, scissors in class. My first thought was jeez they’re 7 tell me the big issues, but when I spoke to them about it this arvo I told them how cheating was wrong and that I was disappointed but I was proud that they admitted their wrongdoing. They felt bad hence admitting it and whilst they know cheating isn’t the right thing to do, my son tonight whilst playing UNO was being shifty again. True story.
Now he had learnt the lesson today, was forgiven and still made the same mistake. As a parent with full knowledge that he’s a good kid but far from perfect I was left with the choice of do I forgive him again? After all he had just been pulled up on cheating earlier in the day. If I forgive him again does that mean I’m giving him licence to cheat? How many times do I forgive before I condone the act?
Well like all of us, kid and adult alike he’s learning and making mistakes so I forgave him again. In forgiving him at no time did I condone cheating or make the act somehow okay for him to do again but that’s not what the act of forgiving is. It’s not acknowledging that what they did was okay now or down the track nor is the act of forgiving a guarantee that they will never do it again it’s about love. Love endures, it’s patient and kind. We are not forgiven by God because we deserve it, it’s Grace. It’s a loving Father bestowing on His children more than what we deserve because that’s the language of love and without it we could never truly grow in our own understanding of love and forgiveness.
There’s no free pass, every time we sin there are consequences but forgiveness as easy as it flows from parent to child is manifested 10 fold in Our Father.

Great story. Thanks.

So you agree. Forgiveness of sins ( and that's the gospel, right? ) is not license to sin. Whatever the action was that requires forgiveness is still an action of sin.

If the law was given so that we know or become conscious of sin, then the law ALWAYS does and continues to do that job. It hasn't stopped doing so ( and if it has, point me to the act of God that says so or the word from God that he's removed law ). But God hasn't removed the law. There is no action by God like the action taken in Genesis 2:2,3 or the action of Exodus 20. God removes the guilt of sin rather than removing what IS SIN. God does not make us righteous by removing what is sin so that we are not sinners, God removes the penalty of sin so that we, through Christ's righteousness, can be declared righteous even though we are sinners. The law remains. It will remain perpetually because it points at sin.
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I may be wrong without exploring further your thoughts but I think we may have some differing ideas on sin but that’s okay. Difference of opinion is in my opinion a sounding board for discussion and digging deeper into some really complex issues.
But yes I do agree that there are very fixed parameters of what is right and wrong. In saying that I’m not a black or white person, I believe life is full of colour and all shades of grey. Every situation is based upon an individual set of circumstances which is always known to God. Whilst stealing is wrong, someone may steal for kicks whilst another to feed their family. It doesn't change the fact that stealing is not desirable but it gives hedence to the fact that every situation is not always equal. God knows our intent and I think that accounts for a lot.
I’m not someone who thinks we are governed by the Old Testament because Jesus’ sacrifice was not in vain. We are washed clean by Him but we don’t stand faultless. The same ageless transgressions that we all to some extent struggle with; lying, pride, vanity, cheating, gluttony ect always have been and will always remain our sins we grow to overcome. That didn’t change or hasn’t changed with the New Testament, Jesus didn’t abolish the law He fulfilled it. Through faith we are forgiven not through obedience but in faith we strive for betterment.
I find this topic to be one that divides but I think often it’s so closely aligned that it needn’t be a dividing point.
Either way the intent to live kindly and with the right intent remains.
I think the bigger sadness is that this issue can be used to divide and cause conflict. Either train of thought sometimes used to minimise the faith of a believer and that I think is a bigger flaw than really what is the beauty of individuality which is the essence of free will. We all have the individual right to interpret our faith as we grow, learn and change without fear of judgment.

[melanie]

Of course, with kids, showing grace and love are key. But depending upon the level of misconduct, the loving thing is to also make them aware that there are also (hopefully appropriate) consequences. So many parents fail to rarely give consequences - which is unloving. Far better to realize them as kids than when they will later see all manner of consequences for their inappropriate actions. Way too many parents try to be their kids' PAL as opposed to their parent. Yes, we can be our children's trusted friend - but shouldn't attempt to be their pal - as there's a an important difference between the two! In the family hierarchy, our kids are not our equals and are under our authority and responsibility.

I totally agree Phil, I fall really on both sides of what you’ve said.
I can be a hard task master, what I mean by that is I expect a certain level of respect and I have high standards.
I am harder on my kids than most in some regards and equally as lenient as well.
I require respect, respect to myself, to my husband, adults, teachers ect. That is non negotiable. But I require a high level of respect because in return I offer my children my upmost respect.
I value their feelings, their thoughts and opinions. I acknowledge them, I listen and I hear them.
I don’t discount their opinions because they are children, I may not agree and chances are I probably won’t give them what they want but I will give them a voice as long as they express themselves respectfully.
I offer my kids a high level of autonomy over themselves. Especially my teenagers. I won’t to help mould them not control them. They have freedom of expression again always respectfully, I encourage free thought and individuality.
So I guess I’m very strict with my expectations of behaviour but very lenient with their personal expressions of thought. I don’t push them to believe what I believe or think how I think. I encourage their intellect and curiosity. I’m not a usual parent, there is nothing usual about me but I get many compliments on my kids especially my teens so I guess I figure I’ve done something right .

[BavarianWheels]

I may be wrong without exploring further your thoughts but I think we may have some differing ideas on sin but that’s okay. Difference of opinion is in my opinion a sounding board for discussion and digging deeper into some really complex issues.
But yes I do agree that there are very fixed parameters of what is right and wrong. In saying that I’m not a black or white person, I believe life is full of colour and all shades of grey. Every situation is based upon an individual set of circumstances which is always known to God. Whilst stealing is wrong, someone may steal for kicks whilst another to feed their family. It doesn't change the fact that stealing is not desirable but it gives hedence to the fact that every situation is not always equal. God knows our intent and I think that accounts for a lot.
I’m not someone who thinks we are governed by the Old Testament because Jesus’ sacrifice was not in vain. We are washed clean by Him but we don’t stand faultless. The same ageless transgressions that we all to some extent struggle with; lying, pride, vanity, cheating, gluttony ect always have been and will always remain our sins we grow to overcome. That didn’t change or hasn’t changed with the New Testament, Jesus didn’t abolish the law He fulfilled it. Through faith we are forgiven not through obedience but in faith we strive for betterment.
I find this topic to be one that divides but I think often it’s so closely aligned that it needn’t be a dividing point.
Either way the intent to live kindly and with the right intent remains.
I think the bigger sadness is that this issue can be used to divide and cause conflict. Either train of thought sometimes used to minimise the faith of a believer and that I think is a bigger flaw than really what is the beauty of individuality which is the essence of free will. We all have the individual right to interpret our faith as we grow, learn and change without fear of judgment.

The sad reality is this. Jesus said He came to divide. ( Matthew 10:34,35 where He quotes Micah, the OT ). So there will always be issues that divide and cause conflict.

Jesus did come and through His sacrifice, wash us clean...but what did He wash us clean of? Did He wash the law away or did He wash our sins away? That's the point here. And if God were a God of "shades of grey", would there have been a need for God to sacrifice His own Son? I believe on the contrary. God is very black and white. You're either for Him or against Him. ( Matthew 12:30 ).

The law does not minimize the faith of the believer...because the law is not a method unto salvation. That doesn't remove, therefore, the law as being how we recognize sin. It ceases to have the power to curse us because Jesus became the curse FOR us. It doesn't cease to be God's law or point at sin.
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[melanie]

I may be wrong without exploring further your thoughts but I think we may have some differing ideas on sin but that’s okay. Difference of opinion is in my opinion a sounding board for discussion and digging deeper into some really complex issues.
But yes I do agree that there are very fixed parameters of what is right and wrong. In saying that I’m not a black or white person, I believe life is full of colour and all shades of grey. Every situation is based upon an individual set of circumstances which is always known to God. Whilst stealing is wrong, someone may steal for kicks whilst another to feed their family. It doesn't change the fact that stealing is not desirable but it gives hedence to the fact that every situation is not always equal. God knows our intent and I think that accounts for a lot.
I’m not someone who thinks we are governed by the Old Testament because Jesus’ sacrifice was not in vain. We are washed clean by Him but we don’t stand faultless. The same ageless transgressions that we all to some extent struggle with; lying, pride, vanity, cheating, gluttony ect always have been and will always remain our sins we grow to overcome. That didn’t change or hasn’t changed with the New Testament, Jesus didn’t abolish the law He fulfilled it. Through faith we are forgiven not through obedience but in faith we strive for betterment.
I find this topic to be one that divides but I think often it’s so closely aligned that it needn’t be a dividing point.
Either way the intent to live kindly and with the right intent remains.
I think the bigger sadness is that this issue can be used to divide and cause conflict. Either train of thought sometimes used to minimise the faith of a believer and that I think is a bigger flaw than really what is the beauty of individuality which is the essence of free will. We all have the individual right to interpret our faith as we grow, learn and change without fear of judgment.

The sad reality is this. Jesus said He came to divide. ( Matthew 10:34,35 where He quotes Micah, the OT ). So there will always be issues that divide and cause conflict.

Jesus did come and through His sacrifice, wash us clean...but what did He wash us clean of? Did He wash the law away or did He wash our sins away? That's the point here. And if God were a God of "shades of grey", would there have been a need for God to sacrifice His own Son? I believe on the contrary. God is very black and white. You're either for Him or against Him. ( Matthew 12:30 ).

The law does not minimize the faith of the believer...because the law is not a method unto salvation. That doesn't remove, therefore, the law as being how we recognize sin. It ceases to have the power to curse us because Jesus became the curse FOR us. It doesn't cease to be God's law or point at sin.
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We’re probably not going to see eye to eye on some topics regarding this and that’s okay. It’s not personal, my beliefs don’t correlate with most so don’t take it personally lol
Personally I think too much focus is placed on what divides and let’s face it there’s always something and not near enough focus on what unites. That’s just my take but your obviously passionate which is great, conviction is a really good thing as long we always stay open and willing to listen.

[BavarianWheels]

I may be wrong without exploring further your thoughts but I think we may have some differing ideas on sin but that’s okay. Difference of opinion is in my opinion a sounding board for discussion and digging deeper into some really complex issues.
But yes I do agree that there are very fixed parameters of what is right and wrong. In saying that I’m not a black or white person, I believe life is full of colour and all shades of grey. Every situation is based upon an individual set of circumstances which is always known to God. Whilst stealing is wrong, someone may steal for kicks whilst another to feed their family. It doesn't change the fact that stealing is not desirable but it gives hedence to the fact that every situation is not always equal. God knows our intent and I think that accounts for a lot.
I’m not someone who thinks we are governed by the Old Testament because Jesus’ sacrifice was not in vain. We are washed clean by Him but we don’t stand faultless. The same ageless transgressions that we all to some extent struggle with; lying, pride, vanity, cheating, gluttony ect always have been and will always remain our sins we grow to overcome. That didn’t change or hasn’t changed with the New Testament, Jesus didn’t abolish the law He fulfilled it. Through faith we are forgiven not through obedience but in faith we strive for betterment.
I find this topic to be one that divides but I think often it’s so closely aligned that it needn’t be a dividing point.
Either way the intent to live kindly and with the right intent remains.
I think the bigger sadness is that this issue can be used to divide and cause conflict. Either train of thought sometimes used to minimise the faith of a believer and that I think is a bigger flaw than really what is the beauty of individuality which is the essence of free will. We all have the individual right to interpret our faith as we grow, learn and change without fear of judgment.

The sad reality is this. Jesus said He came to divide. ( Matthew 10:34,35 where He quotes Micah, the OT ). So there will always be issues that divide and cause conflict.

Jesus did come and through His sacrifice, wash us clean...but what did He wash us clean of? Did He wash the law away or did He wash our sins away? That's the point here. And if God were a God of "shades of grey", would there have been a need for God to sacrifice His own Son? I believe on the contrary. God is very black and white. You're either for Him or against Him. ( Matthew 12:30 ).

The law does not minimize the faith of the believer...because the law is not a method unto salvation. That doesn't remove, therefore, the law as being how we recognize sin. It ceases to have the power to curse us because Jesus became the curse FOR us. It doesn't cease to be God's law or point at sin.
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We’re probably not going to see eye to eye on some topics regarding this and that’s okay. It’s not personal, my beliefs don’t correlate with most so don’t take it personally lol
Personally I think too much focus is placed on what divides and let’s face it there’s always something and not near enough focus on what unites. That’s just my take but your obviously passionate which is great, conviction is a really good thing as long we always stay open and willing to listen.

This begs the question on what you think of Christ's words, then, that He came to divide? Do you not see "eye to eye" with that position? It seems clear and if it is from Christ, then we should probably take that a bit more seriously than just to hand-wave it away and focus more on what unites us. I agree with you, but this doesn't remove the fact of what Christ said...and if He said it and it was recorded, then there is a great significance that we should search and know.

So, yes, we can agree to disagree, but if Christ says He came to divide...then we should understand or seek to understand that.
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