What is His name?

[Philip]

People seem to not know what it means to be SAVED or what ETERNAL life actually means, nor WHEN it begins, nor when God decided to save them - as it was BEFORE they were even born! And God doesn't make mistakes. He foresees not only how THEY will RESPOND to Him, but far more, He knows what HE will keep secure - God's confidence is in Himself and knowing what HE will do. A person can't earn or begin their salvation, much less maintain it. And think about this - if our remaining saved were a matter of OUR will, that would mean that God's desire for whomever He might wish to save would be subject to the frailties and sinful nature of man - but God is SOVEREIGN (and IN His sovereignty, He wants to save ALL who will not permanently resist Him).

[BavarianWheels]

People seem to not know what it means to be SAVED or what ETERNAL life actually means, nor WHEN it begins, nor when God decided to save them - as it was BEFORE they were even born! And God doesn't make mistakes. He foresees not only how THEY will RESPOND to Him, but far more, He knows what HE will keep secure - God's confidence is in Himself and knowing what HE will do. A person can't earn or begin their salvation, much less maintain it. And think about this - if our remaining saved were a matter of OUR will, that would mean that God's desire for whomever He might wish to save would be subject to the frailties and sinful nature of man - but God is SOVEREIGN (and IN His sovereignty, He wants to save ALL who will not permanently resist Him).

It may be God's sovereign will that allows us to choose, but it still remains OUR choice. God doesn't make us believers, but He does allow us to believe.
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[Philip]

It may be God's sovereign will that allows us to choose, but it still remains OUR choice.

Well, the FIRST choice was God's - as NO one could believe without Him FIRST drawing them, providing Jesus' sacrifice, AND allowing them the choice to choose or reject. And God's drawing and wooing will be effective on all who do not (freely) permanently resist Him. And so, His criteria for who He wants to save is all who will not permanently resist Him. We still need God's help to come to belief - and He provides it for ALL so willing / those not permanently resisting Him.

"God doesn't make us believers, but He does allow us to believe."

Agree, as opposed to Five Point and Reformed beliefs, God gives us free will to love Him BACK, freely. So, in our freedom, we can either love Him back or choose to reject Him. Because if we could not willfully resist God - if ALL of our choices were forced upon us (including loving Jesus), then salvation would be forced upon some and forcibly denied others - with free will being irrelevant. In fact, without free will, we could not sin, nor could it be held against us. And FORCED love is no love at all.

[BavarianWheels]

It may be God's sovereign will that allows us to choose, but it still remains OUR choice.

Well, the FIRST choice was God's - as NO one could believe without Him FIRST drawing them, providing Jesus' sacrifice, AND allowing them the choice to choose or reject. And God's drawing and wooing will be effective on all who do not (freely) permanently resist Him. And so, His criteria for who He wants to save is all who will not permanently resist Him. We still need God's help to come to belief - and He provides it for ALL so willing / those not permanently resisting Him.

"God doesn't make us believers, but He does allow us to believe."

Agree, as opposed to Five Point and Reformed beliefs, God gives us free will to love Him BACK, freely. So, in our freedom, we can either love Him back or choose to reject Him. Because if we could not willfully resist God - if ALL of our choices were forced upon us (including loving Jesus), then salvation would be forced upon some and forcibly denied others - with free will being irrelevant. In fact, without free will, we could not sin, nor could it be held against us. And FORCED love is no love at all.

That's what I said...God's will allows us to choose. God's will must exist before we can choose...that would agree with you that God's choice comes first.
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[warren631]

My original question seems to have gotten off track in this thread.

Who is 'The Word'? Doesn't this mean Gods 'intelligence'? God used intelligence to create the universe.

I consider the ten commandments God's law and are therefor very important. The first and most important commandment clearly states "Thou shalt have no other gods before me". Yet Christians mix up and put Jesus Christ (God's son) before God the father. I think this is a deceit from the devil to confuse people into disobeying Gods first commandment. Christians worship 'the Lord' meaning Jesus the Son, not God the Father. I do believe Jesus, the Son of God, died and was raised by God the Father so I consider myself a Christian with some Jewish old testament beliefs (Jesus did not come to change the Law of God).

Catholics even worship Mary as mother of God putting Mary before God. I don't think God needed a mother.

The way most "Christians" get around this grave sin against God's first law is to accept the devils confusion and say Jesus and God are the same.

Gods second commandment clearly states "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images" is also confused by the devil and so ignored by most Christians. Every Christian church has a statue of Jesus on the cross or Mary holding baby Jesus. What excuse do they have for this sin against Gods commandment?

God commanded "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy". 'Sabbath' is another 'name' that has been confused by man or the devil. The sabbath was, and still is, Saturday.

Forgive these wild and wandering cries,
Confusions of a wasted youth;
Forgive them where they fail in truth,
And in thy wisdom make me wise.

[BavarianWheels]

so I consider myself a Christian with some Jewish old testament beliefs (Jesus did not come to change the Law of God).

Christianity is Jewish...except that the Jews should have let go of the 600plus laws that were a shadow of things to come.

The Jews/Hebrews looked forward to a Messiah and salvation through a promise, an act unknown.
Christians look back at the risen Christ, the Messiah and the promise through that known act.

The 10 are not a shadow of things to come in the same sense since they are God's law that POINT AT SIN as evidenced at least twice in NT scripture. Romans 3:20 and Romans 7:7

Is Christ our rest? Yes. That doesn't mean that the 4th commandment is done away with especially with at least the two verses quoted above and with Isaiah 66:22-24 making the allusion that the Sabbath will remain even after the making of the New Earth.
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[Kurieuo]

Warren, I created a thread Understanding the Trinity, based around some good YouTube videos on the subject. It seems apparent you agree that it is important to not just accept God, but know who He is, so then I'd encourage you to not dismiss Christ and the Trinity too quickly and take a dive into that thread and videos I present within.

[LittleHamster]

My original question seems to have gotten off track in this thread.

Who is 'The Word'? Doesn't this mean Gods 'intelligence'? God used intelligence to create the universe.
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From a mysticism perspective:

.... God the Father expresses himself in two ways. These are the Christ Logos or the 'Word' (embodied by Jesus) and the Holy Spirit (which are one with the father). The two expressions have their own intelligence. God the Father (supposedly) has other expressions but these are beyond human understanding and we can't talk about them. The only way you can love/talk to God the Father is by loving and talking to his expressions. As some of us know, we can't get to the Father (let alone talk to him) unless it's through Christ first .

More details here (try and read the whole 'Defending the Trinity' thread , it's got some good stuff)->

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=41667&p=220268&hil ... ns#p220268

[Stu]

No he is not forever saved. You can turn away from God, and while once you believed in Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection and our savior, you can also stop believing that and not believe that Jesus is God's son anymore.

There is a huge difference between mere belief in the facts surrounding Jesus, and in inviting Him into your life and committing yourself to Him in commitment through faith! The first one does not save - and the second one GOD will save. Do you believe that you can save yourself? What initiated that salvation? Who made it possible? WHOSE salvation is it - yours or God's? WHO does God say seals and insures one's salvation? Why does Scripture tell us we can be assured of our salvation? Who "completes" our salvation???!!! When was God's decision to save you made? Did He make a mistake? Did He bet on a "horse" that was an unwise "bet?" Did He make a mistake? And what, exactly, IS salvation???!!! How was the Apostle Paul able to state that he was SURE of this? "And I am SURE of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. Is it because he could see the future? Because he thought his Christian audience were so committed to Christ that they would never leave their salvation? NO! Because there salvation was NEVER based upon the recipient's abilities, but the faith that God made possible and that He seals in all who are saved.

Even the Bible talks about a falling away in the end times. People who once were Christians and then fall away from the faith.

You are teaching a very dangerous thing - that people can do and say whatever they want after accepting Jesus and you will still be saved.

You are assuming that those who appear to be saved, that later renounce Christ, were actually saved to begin with.

You also need to work your way through the immense number of Scriptures that show exactly why it's called entering ETERNAL life - there is no such thing as "temporary eternal life!" And why do you think Scripture says we can KNOW we will inherit eternal life? Anyone who thinks they are somehow maintaining their eternal life has an unScriptural view of this issue!

Paul: So it is dangerous to promote a Once-Saved-Always-Saved ( OSAS ) theology without making clear what that really means.

NO - it merely means I know what "SAVED" actually means - it's ETERNAL life! Notice that I didn't say people who know all the words, believe all the history surrounding Jesus, externally show signs of being a believer, are Christians - as some may not be. So, people are fooled by the external, not realizing when people have not truly been saved, so that when people turn away, it is NOT the case that they had previously been saved.

See the copious Scriptural evidences of what I'm saying: http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/s ... iever.html

You didn't answer the question though, why will there be a falling away? People who fall away from the faith.

[RickD]

Stu wrote:
You didn't answer the question though, why will there be a falling away? People who fall away from the faith.

What specific verse or verses are you referring to?

[Stu]

Stu wrote:
You didn't answer the question though, why will there be a falling away? People who fall away from the faith.

What specific verse or verses are you referring to?

I can't remember the exact verse now. Will try and seek it out.

Maybe there's a Biblical text genius on the boards that can help out.

[Stu]

Here it is (thanks to google). It's talking about the end times.

2 Thessalonians 2:2-4 King James Version (KJV)
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

[Kurieuo]

Most Atheists have a childhood growing up as Christian, and they turn away from Christ during their teenage years.

The question is, what does it mean that a person can "turn away from Christ?" Becauase, if a child truly believes, commits himself to Christ, asked Jesus to save them - then he is FOREVER so saved. As the salvation applied is made possible and thus done so by God, preceded by His wooing the soft heart of a child to a very basic understanding about Jesus, then that salvation is protected by God - and NOT by someone growing older who "hopefully doesn't later reject Christ." If they ever truly reject Christ, that's a child who just was merely posturing the external, cultural / communal aspects of Christianity, yet without ever having actually been saved. Because if we believe a child cannot be saved WHILE STILL A CHILD, then we shouldn't encourage it - not if we're encouraging the impossible. Hopefully no one is asserting that a child can be saved and then can later lose that salvation. If we don't believe that to be possible with adults (that salvation can be lost), why so with children? (Not saying K is saying this - just clarifying).

"for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you." And because, one entering ETERNAL life remains in Christ from that moment onward!

Ok, let me tackle this... and I knew someone would raise it here since we're all pedanticists on this board.

First, you say "commits himself to Christ," and I take exception to "commit". I know Christians use this in common religious terminology, like we must commit ourself to Christ to be saved. Seriously though, it's nothing more than lip service. We fail to commit to Christ over and over again. So then, what matters here is the act of willingness, strong desire, to commit to Christ -- which shows our heart's desire and belief in Christ.

Second, the OSAS issue as it pertains to what I said about an Atheist who kind of rebels as a teenager against God, and lives their life anti-Christ. Who dies... and it is here indeed a particular kind of Atheist I'm referring to. A Christian Atheist who did understand and who in their heart believed in Christ, who for whatever reason turned away from Christ. You know our hearts are deceitful above all things (Jer 17:9), that we don't often know our own hearts. God searches, tests and knows our hearts AND besides ourselves knowing we love Christ, Christ alone knows ALL who belong to Him.

So then, I believe not all Atheists who turn away from God/Christ necessarily stopped believing in Christ within their hearts. They could have been severely wounded in life and acting out, perhaps suffering from depressions, mentally afflicted, I don't know. BUT, when God peels back the layers of pain and scars covering their hearts, there it is a suprise to everyone else, that belief and hope in Christ. It only needs to be the size of a mustard seed, right?

As for those people who have had NDEs, they are very lucky. They're given another chance to make some amendment if you will, to have their hearts further tested. Perhaps they're like a coin tossed which lands on its edge rather than heads or tails. Only they've been slapped in the face with a truth they can no longer deny. Like Paul, they're special cases.

In any case, I believe you can and will have many people who "believed" and even thought they accepted Christ as a child, and yet they're not saved. It turns out that it was just their parents influence perhaps, maybe the influence or peer pressure of those around them to conform, being placed in a Christian school, saturated with religion, fear of disappointing others or the like. So then, as their life plays out, in their later years they shun God, become very anti-God, and their hearts reveal their true self and lack of belief. These persons are not saved, they never were as children, so they've not lost anything. Some might feel uncomfortable by my saying so here such things, yet if a child (or adult) merely pays lip service with the sinners prayer -- I think most of us here are thoughtful enough to realise it's not repeating mere words that saves.

Yet then, similarly only vice-versa, you have those who turned away and in their pain they shunned God, nonetheless they truly did believe and these people are saved. It is here where things aren't so clear to us as external observers, and one reason why we should never judge another person's salvation (though there is nothing wrong as I see with observing someone who appears lost, and so trying to reach out to them as best we can). There are some I feel might even be at this board in this category. And, it is the reason I put that verse in my signature (Rom 10:13), if it so happens they end up being a special case who wake up in the afterlife. Just cry out to Jesus for help, but I say, this is by no means the norm and I'm unsure whether such is possible, except what scantly comes across via some reported NDEs.

[RickD]

Here it is (thanks to google). It's talking about the end times.

<a class="rtBibleRef" href="https://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/2%20Thess%202.2-4" data-reference="2 Thess 2.2-4" data-version="nasb95" data-purpose="bible-reference" target="_blank">2 Thessalonians 2:2-4</a> King James Version (KJV)
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Stu,

I'm not sure how you get this:

Even the Bible talks about a falling away in the end times. People who once were Christians and then fall away from the faith.

From the text in 2 Thessalonians that you posted. Specifically, where does the text say Christians, or those who have eternal life, fall away from the faith, and no longer have eternal life?

It seems to me that you're reading that into the text.

[Stu]

Here it is (thanks to google). It's talking about the end times.

<a class="rtBibleRef" href="https://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/2%20Thess%202.2-4" data-reference="2 Thess 2.2-4" data-version="nasb95" data-purpose="bible-reference" target="_blank">2 Thessalonians 2:2-4</a> King James Version (KJV)
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Stu,

I'm not sure how you get this:

Even the Bible talks about a falling away in the end times. People who once were Christians and then fall away from the faith.

From the text in 2 Thessalonians that you posted. Specifically, where does the text say Christians, or those who have eternal life, fall away from the faith, and no longer have eternal life?

It seems to me that you're reading that into the text.

From this:

"for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first"
You have to fall away from something. In this case it is describing a falling away of the flock from the faith.

If you disagree, then what is the falling away from?