Abortion - Irish have done it. Consequences ?

[Stu]

Here is another interesting observation for the Christians out there. At the time of Noah, God flooded the place. Regardless of whether it was total flooding or localized flooding, he would have put a fair number of unborn babies to death. What do we make of this ?

(i) There was no law at that time so it was ok for God to terminate pregnancies?
(ii) God can break his own laws (the ones yet to be given to humanity) to serve his purpose(s)?
(iii) God knew, of course, that the current generation that existed at the time of Noah was rather corrupt. He foresaw that all the unborn were not going to grow up and improve the situation. At his time, Grace did not exist, so salvation was not an option for that generation or their offspring. i.e., time to reset the lot ?
(iv) Unborn babies, do in fact, carry with them the original sin from their ancestors, so they are condemned even before they are born and therefore, God was(and still is) completely justified in terminating pregnancies?
(v) Other.....

Or all (including the children in the womb) had their DNA corrupted by the Watchers/Nephilim.

[LittleHamster]

From reading a number of the articles on abortion, there appears to be a certain number of stereotypical people that give the same or similar arguments over and over again. These people seem to have similar opinions on a lot of other life issues as well.


Hamster's List of Stereotypes
------------------------------------

The Average Joe/Joeline (AJ) - AJ's generally spend their life sitting in front of the TV with one hand on the remote and the other firmly seated in thier crotch - occasionally scratching. Their view on abortion almost always comes from what they see on the six o'clock news. e.g. they see people holding up banners saying things like "Abortion is Murder" or "It's a Woman's Choice". These people will almost never get involved in arguments unless a life crisis brings them out of their confort zone, in which case, they will start blurting out what they have learnt from the TV set.

The Scientific Atheist (SA) - SA's will always try and give the latest discoveries in science as evidence for the point at which a bunch or organic material becomes a human being. They come up with all sorts of evidence and try and apply it to the definition of life. e.g. the cells are multiplying in the womb, there are brainwaves in the fetus, etc. SA's fail to realise that the discoveries in science seem to change from year to year, decade to decade. e.g. - "there were no brainwaves detected in the fetus last decade - it's not a human being !" and then "we have detected brainwaves in the fetus this decade - crickey its a living human being !"

The Practical Agnostic (PA) - Does not believe you can know the the Divine God. He only relies on scientific evidence but fails to understand that some people may be able to receive experiental evidence from the spiritual world. The PA usually ends up with similar opinions of the SA.

The Emotional Atheist (EA) - EA's will purely base their opinion on abortion from how they feel. Again, EA's can be contradictory in view with one saying "Its my Body, I can do what I like" while another will say "It's a living Being, it must be protected".

The Psuedo-Scientific-Emotional Athiest (PSEA) - PSEA's can be for or against Abortion. PSAE's will occasionally use the arguments from PA's, SA's and EA's usually to suit their own agenda.

The Common Garden Variety Religious Person (CGVRP))- These are your typical day-to-day Christians for example. They go to church occasionally, come home and go away and do other things - not really studying scripture, religion or
anything with regards to life issues. These people's view on abortion is usually what their church or priest transmits to them during a sermon. Sometimes they are a victim of false doctrine or can be easily led or swayed in opinion by the EA's or the SA's. So again, their views on abortion can vary greatly.

The Academic Christian (AC) - AC's study the bible profusely but don't have any really deep understanding of the scripture. They merely read the text superficially but fail to gain any insight into the true meaning of the parables, alegories, etc. However they do have the advantage of being able to understand scripture from other's more insightful interpretations. AC's will form an opinion on abortion purely based on the text written in the bible but may not fully appreciate the work of God in every living creature. AC's are still susceptible to misinterpretations and/or being led astray by other's inaccurate interpretation of the Christian doctrine.

The Saved Christian (SC) - The SC is usually given a little more insight into the written word of scripture in the bible. SC's make it their duty to investigate the teachings of the Holy Bible with great rigor. Generally, they have a deep appreciation for the sanctity of human life and do their best to protect it. The SC will continually test his knowledge of bible scripture until he is satisfied that his understanding of the word of God is the correct one. Almost any of the above categories may become an SC.

The Christian Mystic (CM)- A CM has the ability to readily contact the Holy Spirit, the Angels and Archangles for answer's. Christian Mystics tend to keep to themselves and rarely step out in the world and engage in public debate. If you find one, make it your explicit mission to poke and prod them for answers. You should find them more than helpful with giving you their knowledge of scripture and what goes on in the spiritual world.

The Highly-Advanced Totally-Enlightened Totally-Graced Totally-Aware Total-Loving Total-Service-Giving Seventh-Degree-Initiate >insert other impressive lingo here< (HATETGTATLTSGSDI>IOILH<) - It is unclear whether these people exist yet or not. If they do or did, then they would know the answer to the abortion debate as they are in constant contact with God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. It is unlikely they would involve themselves in such an argument as they strictly follow the will of God. If God will's them to tell us the truth regarding abortion, then they will.

The God Incarnate (GI) - A GI is sometimes refered to as Joshua Emannuel the Christ, Jesus, Jesus Christ, Christ, Yeshua, Joshua, The Word made Flesh. A GI came into the world about 2000 years ago. The GI is a perfect human being. The GI is full of love, Grace and Truth. Only a GI knows precisely the all answers to all the issues and circumstances surrounding abortion.

The God and Science Forum Poster (GASFP) - GASFP's are a rare breed of individual indeed. GASFP's are basically "all over the shop" in their beliefs and opinions. They do however, have an exceptionally brilliant filtering mechanism for those who produce bogus scriptural interpretations.

[neo-x]

Neo, you said:

It is becoming more common now for people to abort rather than give birth.

And you also said:

Abortion isn't actually an issue in Pakistan...

You don't see an issue with more unborn being killed, than babies being born, or am I misunderstanding you?

I was talking about the general attitude towards abortion. It is becoming less of a taboo.
Yes, I don't see an issue with abortion because I don't consider it killing/murdering a human being.

I do think it is a matter of personal choice. That being said, I see the issue you have and empathize with the idea but I feel it's misplaced - to think that every human embryo and later fetus, is the same as a human baby come to term - is misleading at best. Is it potential human being? yes; but it is not a human being per se - the same as you and me.

As for born-again Christians, do you see this as something that affects their salvation?
What are the spiritual side effects of abortion in your opinion?

[Stu]

Neo, you said:

It is becoming more common now for people to abort rather than give birth.

And you also said:

Abortion isn't actually an issue in Pakistan...

You don't see an issue with more unborn being killed, than babies being born, or am I misunderstanding you?

I was talking about the general attitude towards abortion. It is becoming less of a taboo.
Yes, I don't see an issue with abortion because I don't consider it killing/murdering a human being.

I do think it is a matter of personal choice. That being said, I see the issue you have and empathize with the idea but I feel it's misplaced - to think that every human embryo and later fetus, is the same as a human baby come to term - is misleading at best. Is it potential human being? yes; but it is not a human being per se - the same as you and me.

As for born-again Christians, do you see this as something that affects their salvation?
What are the spiritual side effects of abortion in your opinion?

Sometimes I wonder where you get your worldview from.

Exodus 21:22-25 King James Version (KJV)
22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Here the Bible is clearly saying that if you kill an unborn, the person who killed the child must be in turn killed. It seems that God holds that life in very high esteem even if you don't.

[RickD]

Neo wrote:
I was talking about the general attitude towards abortion. It is becoming less of a taboo.
Yes, I don't see an issue with abortion because I don't consider it killing/murdering a human being.

That seems strange to me, coming from someone that holds science in such high regard. I really can't see how anyone with half a brain, much less anyone as obviously intelligent as you, could see an unborn human as anything but human.

I do think it is a matter of personal choice. That being said, I see the issue you have and empathize with the idea but I feel it's misplaced - to think that every human embryo and later fetus, is the same as a human baby come to term - is misleading at best. Is it potential human being? yes; but it is not a human being per se - the same as you and me.

An unborn baby is as fully human as a 100 year old man. It just puzzles me to hear you say that.
Anyone who's has ever felt a baby move or kick, inside its mother, can clearly see that it's alive, and not "potential" life.

As for born-again Christians, do you see this as something that affects their salvation?
What are the spiritual side effects of abortion in your opinion?

Are you asking me if one's belief, whether pro-life, pro-choice, or pro abortion, affects salvation?

No, of course you know I don't believe that. I don't even believe any doctor that murders the unborn can't be saved.

Spiritual effects of abortion? The same as spiritual effects of any sin, I guess.

[Philip]

Spiritual effects of abortion? The same as spiritual effects of any sin, I guess.

Actually, often far worse and producing many years of intense guilt and terrible regret.

[neo-x]

Neo wrote:
I was talking about the general attitude towards abortion. It is becoming less of a taboo.
Yes, I don't see an issue with abortion because I don't consider it killing/murdering a human being.

That seems strange to me, coming from someone that holds science in such high regard. I really can't see how anyone with half a brain, much less anyone as obviously intelligent as you, could see an unborn human as anything but human.

I do think it is a matter of personal choice. That being said, I see the issue you have and empathize with the idea but I feel it's misplaced - to think that every human embryo and later fetus, is the same as a human baby come to term - is misleading at best. Is it potential human being? yes; but it is not a human being per se - the same as you and me.

An unborn baby is as fully human as a 100 year old man. It just puzzles me to hear you say that.
Anyone who's has ever felt a baby move or kick, inside its mother, can clearly see that it's alive, and not "potential" life.

As for born-again Christians, do you see this as something that affects their salvation?
What are the spiritual side effects of abortion in your opinion?

Are you asking me if one's belief, whether pro-life, pro-choice, or pro abortion, affects salvation?

No, of course you know I don't believe that. I don't even believe any doctor that murders the unborn can't be saved.

Spiritual effects of abortion? The same as spiritual effects of any sin, I guess.

It is in fact science that says that the embryo is not a baby nor a fetus is. It is just that a fetus. Biologically dependant on the mother. Is it life? Sure I don't deny that. But is it a human being? No it's not. Not until it comes to term.

Can you show me how an embryo is the same as a 100 year old person? It's really not. No science book says so. If you are going to appeal to dna then technically chimps are almost human and onions amd bananas are not far behind. Unborn baby is a very vast term. There are great number of stages in which the embryo goes through to get to full term.

I guessed you believe that about salvation but I just needed to confirm. However if the baby is harming the mother do you see still see it as murder or justified murder or sin? And if not then what do you think it is?

[Stu]

Neo wrote:
I was talking about the general attitude towards abortion. It is becoming less of a taboo.
Yes, I don't see an issue with abortion because I don't consider it killing/murdering a human being.

That seems strange to me, coming from someone that holds science in such high regard. I really can't see how anyone with half a brain, much less anyone as obviously intelligent as you, could see an unborn human as anything but human.

I do think it is a matter of personal choice. That being said, I see the issue you have and empathize with the idea but I feel it's misplaced - to think that every human embryo and later fetus, is the same as a human baby come to term - is misleading at best. Is it potential human being? yes; but it is not a human being per se - the same as you and me.

An unborn baby is as fully human as a 100 year old man. It just puzzles me to hear you say that.
Anyone who's has ever felt a baby move or kick, inside its mother, can clearly see that it's alive, and not "potential" life.

As for born-again Christians, do you see this as something that affects their salvation?
What are the spiritual side effects of abortion in your opinion?

Are you asking me if one's belief, whether pro-life, pro-choice, or pro abortion, affects salvation?

No, of course you know I don't believe that. I don't even believe any doctor that murders the unborn can't be saved.

Spiritual effects of abortion? The same as spiritual effects of any sin, I guess.

It is in fact science that says that the embryo is not a baby nor a fetus is. It is just that a fetus. Biologically dependant on the mother. Is it life? Sure I don't deny that. But is it a human being? No it's not. Not until it comes to term.

The Bible says otherwise. But then what does God know.

Can you show me how an embryo is the same as a 100 year old person? It's really not. No science book says so.

Science book? You seem very often to put more weight in science and man than God and the Bible.

[neo-x]

Neo wrote:
I was talking about the general attitude towards abortion. It is becoming less of a taboo.
Yes, I don't see an issue with abortion because I don't consider it killing/murdering a human being.

That seems strange to me, coming from someone that holds science in such high regard. I really can't see how anyone with half a brain, much less anyone as obviously intelligent as you, could see an unborn human as anything but human.

I do think it is a matter of personal choice. That being said, I see the issue you have and empathize with the idea but I feel it's misplaced - to think that every human embryo and later fetus, is the same as a human baby come to term - is misleading at best. Is it potential human being? yes; but it is not a human being per se - the same as you and me.

An unborn baby is as fully human as a 100 year old man. It just puzzles me to hear you say that.
Anyone who's has ever felt a baby move or kick, inside its mother, can clearly see that it's alive, and not "potential" life.

As for born-again Christians, do you see this as something that affects their salvation?
What are the spiritual side effects of abortion in your opinion?

Are you asking me if one's belief, whether pro-life, pro-choice, or pro abortion, affects salvation?

No, of course you know I don't believe that. I don't even believe any doctor that murders the unborn can't be saved.

Spiritual effects of abortion? The same as spiritual effects of any sin, I guess.

It is in fact science that says that the embryo is not a baby nor a fetus is. It is just that a fetus. Biologically dependant on the mother. Is it life? Sure I don't deny that. But is it a human being? No it's not. Not until it comes to term.

The Bible says otherwise. But then what does God know.

Can you show me how an embryo is the same as a 100 year old person? It's really not. No science book says so.

Science book? You seem very often to put more weight in science and man than God and the Bible.

I do. Science is good at things that the Bible isn't. So matters pertaining to science should be solved with science. When discussing doctrine and theology I will certainly put more weight to the bible and philosophy.

Please give me a theological proof of the weaker nuclear force. Hint: Try looking in the Bible I am sure the answer is there.

[neo-x]

Spiritual effects of abortion? The same as spiritual effects of any sin, I guess.

Actually, often far worse and producing many years of intense guilt and terrible regret.

Strangely, I have not seen this often. Perhaps this is not a universal experience?

[RickD]

Neo wrote:
I was talking about the general attitude towards abortion. It is becoming less of a taboo.
Yes, I don't see an issue with abortion because I don't consider it killing/murdering a human being.

That seems strange to me, coming from someone that holds science in such high regard. I really can't see how anyone with half a brain, much less anyone as obviously intelligent as you, could see an unborn human as anything but human.

I do think it is a matter of personal choice. That being said, I see the issue you have and empathize with the idea but I feel it's misplaced - to think that every human embryo and later fetus, is the same as a human baby come to term - is misleading at best. Is it potential human being? yes; but it is not a human being per se - the same as you and me.

An unborn baby is as fully human as a 100 year old man. It just puzzles me to hear you say that.
Anyone who's has ever felt a baby move or kick, inside its mother, can clearly see that it's alive, and not "potential" life.

As for born-again Christians, do you see this as something that affects their salvation?
What are the spiritual side effects of abortion in your opinion?

Are you asking me if one's belief, whether pro-life, pro-choice, or pro abortion, affects salvation?

No, of course you know I don't believe that. I don't even believe any doctor that murders the unborn can't be saved.

Spiritual effects of abortion? The same as spiritual effects of any sin, I guess.

It is in fact science that says that the embryo is not a baby nor a fetus is. It is just that a fetus. Biologically dependant on the mother. Is it life? Sure I don't deny that. But is it a human being? No it's not. Not until it comes to term.

Can you show me how an embryo is the same as a 100 year old person? It's really not. No science book says so. If you are going to appeal to dna then technically chimps are almost human and onions amd bananas are not far behind. Unborn baby is a very vast term. There are great number of stages in which the embryo goes through to get to full term.

I guessed you believe that about salvation but I just needed to confirm. However if the baby is harming the mother do you see still see it as murder or justified murder or sin? And if not then what do you think it is?

Neo,

What you addressed here, to me, is the entire discussion in a nutshell. If the unborn aren't human, than anything is permissible. But if they are human, then they have the inherent right to not be killed.

So, you said that the unborn aren't human beings until they come to full term. What do you base this on?

And to answer your questions...

An unborn and a 100 year old are both human beings, in different stages of life. They are the same in that they are both human. But different in that they are in different stages. But you wouldn't say that a 100 year old isn't human would you? What if that 100 year old couldn't survive on his own without help from somebody else? Isn't that the argument you used for the unborn?

Second question. If the baby is harming the mother, is aborting that baby murder? I would say that in the extremely rare cases that the baby is endangering the mother's life, then we would get into a discussion regarding situational ethics. But like I said, the cases where the unborn baby is a genuine threat to the mother, are rare. Doctors would try to save both lives, as best they could.

[RickD]

Neo wrote:
I was talking about the general attitude towards abortion. It is becoming less of a taboo.
Yes, I don't see an issue with abortion because I don't consider it killing/murdering a human being.

That seems strange to me, coming from someone that holds science in such high regard. I really can't see how anyone with half a brain, much less anyone as obviously intelligent as you, could see an unborn human as anything but human.

I do think it is a matter of personal choice. That being said, I see the issue you have and empathize with the idea but I feel it's misplaced - to think that every human embryo and later fetus, is the same as a human baby come to term - is misleading at best. Is it potential human being? yes; but it is not a human being per se - the same as you and me.

An unborn baby is as fully human as a 100 year old man. It just puzzles me to hear you say that.
Anyone who's has ever felt a baby move or kick, inside its mother, can clearly see that it's alive, and not "potential" life.

As for born-again Christians, do you see this as something that affects their salvation?
What are the spiritual side effects of abortion in your opinion?

Are you asking me if one's belief, whether pro-life, pro-choice, or pro abortion, affects salvation?

No, of course you know I don't believe that. I don't even believe any doctor that murders the unborn can't be saved.

Spiritual effects of abortion? The same as spiritual effects of any sin, I guess.

It is in fact science that says that the embryo is not a baby nor a fetus is. It is just that a fetus. Biologically dependant on the mother. Is it life? Sure I don't deny that. But is it a human being? No it's not. Not until it comes to term.

The Bible says otherwise. But then what does God know.

Can you show me how an embryo is the same as a 100 year old person? It's really not. No science book says so.

Science book? You seem very often to put more weight in science and man than God and the Bible.

Stu,

I don't think this is a case of science vs. the bible. I think science is on the side of the unborn being fully human.

I think this is a case of Neo vs the bible, and Neo vs science.

[edwardmurphy]

There's no scientific consensus on when life begins. There's not even a consensus on when a fetus reaches viability.

[RickD]

There's no scientific consensus on when life begins. There's not even a consensus on when a fetus reaches viability.

That's just not true Ed.
https://www.acpeds.org/the-college-spea ... ife-begins

"As far as human ‘life’ per se, it is, for the most part, uncontroversial among the scientific and philosophical community that life begins at the moment when the genetic information contained in the sperm and ovum combine to form a genetically unique cell.”

The difference between the individual in its adult stage and in its zygotic stage is one of form, not nature.

[edwardmurphy]

The ACPeds is a conservative advocacy group that opposes abortion and adoption by same-sex couples and favors abstinence-only sex education. Taking their claims as the unbiased, evidence-based position of the scientific community as a whole is like declaring that cigarettes are harmless because Citizens for Tobacco Rights says they are.

There's no scientific consensus on when life begins.