BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Thu May 17, 2018 8:16 am
Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 4:24 pm
It's so hard talking to Christians who believe we're forgiven and saved by grace through faith in Christ
AND [add in some works]. Such Christians might say something like, "
we're forgiven and saved when we ask Christ to forgives us our sin, come into our lives, repent of our sins to stop sinning." These Christians are normally the ones concerned about the sin in other Christians. It seems to me that many who judge other Christians and preach these works-based theologies may end up having a scandel of their own revealed. So sad, they're set free in Christ yet feel so trapped by their own sin that they take it out on other Christians they're meant to be correctly teaching.
I don't promote a Faith+Works gospel anymore than Christ did through the account of the woman caught in adultery. ( John 8:1-11 )
John 8:10,11 NIV wrote:10Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
11“No one, sir,” she said.
“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
The KJV translates it as "...go and sin no more." Either way the wording promotes righteous living, an action...an action that very interestingly comes AFTER Christ declares that He does not condemn her!! That is it right there. Christ has declared to her that there is no condemnation from Him on her, and yet He tells her to "...leave your life of sin."
Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 4:24 pm
There are many Christians trapped by a works-based theology. Such feel uncomfortable with just letting Christians naturally grow in righteousness via the work of the Holy Spirit, because they say there might be some who come to Christ and just willy-nilly going about their lives sinning and doing whatever they want. To which I reply, so bloody what, that's between that person and God? You've no doubt got your own logs to deal with. Such Christians may temporarily forget their own sinful desires of their flesh, perhaps take pride in momentarily conquering this or that sin in their life.
I grant you that people are trapped in a works-based theology. That doesn't make seeing the Law ( the 10 ) as still law a "works-based theology". Clearly neither does Christ or the Holy Spirit. If the law is powerless to save ( Romans 8:3 ), Christ comes to condemn SIN. The words are clear. Christ doesn't condemn the law...the law is holy, righteous and good ( Romans 7:12 ) , but condemns SIN...and then the kicker... ( Romans 8:4 )
Romans 8:4 and 7 wrote:...in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. [...] The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
The requirements of the Law are righteous! It doesn't say the requirements of the Law except the Sabbath are righteous! The bible says, ALL the law and prophets is summed up in LOVE. ( Matthew 22:37-40 , Galatians 5:14 , Romans 13:8-10 )
Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 4:24 pm
"
Yes, it is by grace through faith in Christ, BUT you must also repent and stop sinning," they say. Then they go about backloading works into salvation and into the good news Christ brought. This is still a works-based theology AND worst yet, it pulls the rug out of the Gospel post-acceptance, the good news which says it is by Christ and Christ alone we are saved and not of our own doing. No one can boast about their Christianity, or how good of a Christian they are, only of the work God has wrought through us.
Whoever says that is dumb because while we can repent, we can't stop sinning. But the direction is no less the same direction Christ pointed the woman caught in adultery ( Commandment 7 ) and declared He didn't condemn her so "go and sin no more." You have to admit, adultery is a rather simple commandment to keep in action, maybe not in heart...hence repentance and leaning on God to change us.
Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 4:24 pm
Are we a willing vessel that Christ can use, or aren't we? That is the main question for Christians post-accepting Christ. And often, it does take work on our part to change, to master our sinful bodies, to reach out to others and try to love them as Christ loves us, yet it is God who is steering us through life and placing things in our path that really test and refine us. There is zero soteriological merit to such however, that is, it makes no difference to one's standing with God and being saved what one DOES if their faith was truly in Christ.
Agreed. So to actively shove aside God's law because "you are no longer under the law" is to completely misinterpret what it means to be UNDER the law. If the law has righteous requirements, then to be ON TOP of the law is to be righteous and to be UNDER the law is to be found guilty of one sin, therefore guilty of them all. Again, we are redeemed from the CURSE of the law or redeemed from being UNDER the law...same thing. ( Galatians 3:13 )
Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 4:24 pm
People who think they can come to Christ by merely following some formula -- e.g., ask Christ for forgiveness, say the sinners prayer, repent (by which many mean to either "turn from their sin" i.e., stop sinning) -- AREN'T saved. Such could be just carrying out a process that has no real significance. Testing to see if they feel changed, like trying on a new set of clothes. The Israelites and many Jews today still try to follow a process, but their prophet Jeremiah warned that one day God would punish those who are
only circumcised in the flesh. (Jer 9:25)
Again, we agree. But that process also includes being lead by the Spirit and NOT the flesh...which is hostile to God's law. We just read this in Romans 8:1-11 that the law IS righteous requirements. Again, not that we must attain righteousness through the law, we already know the law is powerless to do this, but rather we live according to the Spirit...who does live by or on top of the law, so to speak, the Spirit is not UNDER the law. The Spirit is not guilty of any of the Law that He would be UNDER the law.
Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 4:24 pm
What is important isn't the process, isn't our sinful bodies which continue sinning,
...and how do you know what sin is?
Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 4:24 pm...
noone needs to tell a real Christian to
also turn from sin. For all who are circumcised deeper down in their hearts will quite naturally wish they were different. Rather what matters is their true desire and change (a "circumcision of the heart" as Scripture describes). Read these passages: Deut 10:16; Deut 30:6; Jer 4:4; Jer 9:25; Acts 7:51; Phil 3:3; Col 2:11.
I don't have anything against the above except to say that you say one thing from one side of your mouth and then something contrary from the other. You say, "...their true desire to change." Change from what and to what? It is plainly laid out in scripture in the above texts...and those aren't the only ones.
Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 4:24 pm
So then what matters when we come to Christ is that such is a heart-based response. We know inside ourselves we are sinners and really do need Christ, and we desire Him!
How do we know we are sinners? What have we done that makes us sinners? Is there some list that exists that shows us what sin is? You're saying all the right words, but you're not having the desire to change. You're willing to change everything, BUT acknowledge God's righteous law.
Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 4:24 pm
The other things should follow more naturally, believing in Christ, asking God for forgiveness, such things are just a natural outcome of a circumcised heart (which mind you we also have a lot to thank God for when we come to this point of "circumcision" in our lives). Wanting to change and be more like Christ is also just something more natural for us even if we still struggle with being such.
And wouldn't you say that if the requirements of the law are righteous, then Christ is righteous? So we know what sin is. It is everything in the law that points to, makes us aware of, makes us conscious of sin. ( Romans 3:20 , Romans 7:7 ) The law is spiritual ( Romans 7:14 ), My inner being delights in God's law ( Romans 7:22)
Kurieuo wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 4:24 pm
God promises to be faithful to us in shaping and moulding us -- the Holy Spirit does this to us in life, tests us, refines us. God helps us to circumcise our flesh and bodies in ways neither the Jews or we ourselves could achieve alone. This continues until the day we die when we are truly free from our bodies of sin. That Christian person who is set free at death, never sinned (Bav you listening), but rather it was sin in weakness of flesh that Paul describes doing that which we do not want to do (Romans 7:14-25). When our bodies are shed, so too the weakness of our flesh and sinfulness is shed. We are finally set free and able to be our true selves in Christ. As Paul says (Bav, again you listening), "
It is not I who do wrong, but sin that dwells within me." (Romans 7:17) There is no such thing as a Christian sinner who has truly had a circumcision of the heart in Christ, and thus the resulting belief in Christ which follows.
You're reading this all completely in the wrong context. It is ME, YOU, Paul that are in the flesh. It IS us that sin. We are sinners. If anyone claims not to be a sinner, they are a liar. ( 1 John 1:10 )
The end of Romans 7 is OH so clear.
Romans 7:25 wrote:Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful natured a slave to the law of sin.
This explains Romans 7 and the 'wretched man' that is a slave to the law of sin, but wants to be a slave to God's law...which is righteousness...it's holy, and good. God delivers us from that wretched person enslaved by the law of sin...which the law makes us conscious, makes us aware of.
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