Abortion - Irish have done it. Consequences ?

[Philip]

Neo: I am not advocating for abortion at later stages be it human or human beings. There is no consensus on this but its obvious that each passing day makes that potential turn to reality.

The key point is not what STAGE of humanity the unborn is in, what makes it murder or not has ONLY to do with whether or not it is a human life that is being terminated. When does biology itself indicates that a lifeform exists? If it's not human life, what is it??? Scripture reveals that God sees the unborn as human life. It certainly won't be a hamster or an animal. And the other pertinent issue: Who is the giver of life and Who has the right to take it? His penalties show He thinks that as well. You cannot separate the stage of life from the life itself. We were all once unborns in very early stages of life. Kill early stage Neo - you've killed Neo the adult in process. Period! In fact, all our lives we'll be in some stage of life.

People don't believe what Scripture says about various things because its limits and mandates don't line up with their own motives or perceived inconveniences - to our own great detriment. We're capable of rationalizing most anything imaginable.

[LittleHamster]

Neo: I am not advocating for abortion at later stages be it human or human beings. There is no consensus on this but its obvious that each passing day makes that potential turn to reality.

....... It won't be a hamster or a animal......

You never know, with genetic engineering and all that stuff:- FrankenHamster will come

So this entire argument boils down to "when is a human life a human life ?" What if we were to stop a sperm penetrating and egg ? Look at the picture below. At what point does it become murder ? What if you jumped into a bedroom at the last second and stopped the sex act between a couple ? (not that any forum member here would ever do such a thing). If we terminate fetuses due to poverty, abnormalities, etc., why not terminate them later on in life like they did in some cultures in the old days ? edit: I am just thinking out aloud here, no need to answer all these questions Phillip, et al.

[LittleHamster]

And the Big One...

Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I set you apart and appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

This tells me that the sperm-egg-fetus-birth business is just a small part of much more complex process.

[Philip]

Preventing a pregnancy is preventing life BEFORE it occurs. No murder involved. Every woman's ovulation - not life. A man's nocturnal (or otherwise) emissions - not life. This has no relevance upon the issue.

The Jeremiah 1:5 passage shows that God considers a person, even before they begin their formation in the womb.

Little Hammy - let's go back in time - to when your parents were passionately playing "pattycakes" - and pretty soon, an egg has just been fertilized. And not just any fertilized egg - no, that little, tiny bio speck was little Hammy's first moments of life. If that little mass had been terminated in it's first day - well, no little Hammy - as the beginning would have quickly come to an end for our favorite, little rodent. That little embryo was you, Hammy - you were already alive immediately post fertilization!

[LittleHamster]

Preventing a pregnancy is preventing life BEFORE it occurs. No murder involved. Every woman's ovulation - not life. A man's nocturnal (or otherwise) emissions - not life. This has no relevance upon the issue.

The Jeremiah 1:5 passage shows that God considers a person, even before they begin their formation in the womb.

Little Hammy - let's go back in time - to when your parents were passionately playing "pattycakes" - and pretty soon, an egg has just been fertilized. And not just any fertilized egg - no, that little, tiny bio speck was little Hammy's first moments of life. If that little mass had been terminated in it's first day - well, no little Hammy - as the beginning would have quickly come to an end for our favorite, little rodent. That little embryo was you, Hammy - you were already alive immediately post fertilization!

I would agree but let me put forward a few other points to consider.

If you were to terminate little hammy in the example above, can little hammy come back later on in another pregnancy ?

What about the prospect of interfering with the "life cycle" as a whole ? An example would be inducing sterility in people - the prevention of propagating human life. Not murder but equivalent to mass-murder ? If Noah did that, then it would have been kaputski for us all.

What about the possibility that you are going against God's will ?. God's will may be against a *particular* couple having a child which would mean an abortion would not carry the same consequences as other couples having an abortion.

[Blessed]

Here is another interesting observation for the Christians out there. At the time of Noah, God flooded the place. Regardless of whether it was total flooding or localized flooding, he would have put a fair number of unborn babies to death. What do we make of this ?

(i) There was no law at that time so it was ok for God to terminate pregnancies?
(ii) God can break his own laws (the ones yet to be given to humanity) to serve his purpose(s)?
(iii) God knew, of course, that the current generation that existed at the time of Noah was rather corrupt. He foresaw that all the unborn were not going to grow up and improve the situation. At his time, Grace did not exist, so salvation was not an option for that generation or their offspring. i.e., time to reset the lot ?
(iv) Unborn babies, do in fact, carry with them the original sin from their ancestors, so they are condemned even before they are born and therefore, God was(and still is) completely justified in terminating pregnancies?
(v) Other.....

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By the way, thanks Blessed, I set my start page to gopher.com. I just need to run the TOR browser, secretly change my name, get some plastic surgery and viola ! I can surf anonymously

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more points from you guys...

37. Murder needs malice, I don't think people have that when they are aborting. Not once have I ever witnessed that.viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42492#p237459
38. There is one thing every single one of us can agree with: That your parents decided not to abort you viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42492&start=15#p237465
39. I think abortion is a form of murder. But only past a certain point. 1) Soul infuses in flesh 2) Fetus becomes Sentient - in any form. Consequences are shown in Deuteronomy 28: 15-67. Deuteronomy 28: 43-45 "if you do not obey the Lord your God,(his commandments)...that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:" (i.e., a lot of nasty stuff) viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42492#p237454
40. The fetus is a human being. https://www.secularprolife.org/abortion
41. There is no consistent, objective distinction between "person" and "human being." https://www.secularprolife.org/abortion
42. Human beings possess human rights. https://www.secularprolife.org/abortion
43. Bodily integrity is not sufficient to justify most abortions. https://www.secularprolife.org/abortion
44. The general wrongness of killing people is, thankfully, a near-universal moral judgment https://www.secularprolife.org/abortion
45. It is also worth noting that bodily autonomy is essentially an after-the-fact rationalization; women do not actually have abortions in order to preserve their bodily autonomy. https://www.secularprolife.org/abortion

They shut it down. It's not working anymore. At least not on my web browser. It's been shut down for weeks.

I long suspected when a website came out that did everything Google used to do a few years after it came out - but with no spying and propaganda (any Google search reveals only MSM leftist Anti-Trump news from sources nobody reads anymore) I suspected it would take over Google search and that when Google noticed this they would use Law-fare to shut it down.


To you're main point - God never broke his word. If God takes life away it's not breaking his word. The entire world had turned to evil and was a servant of evil. Only Noah and his kin were found to have grace in the eyes of God. We see a similar story with Sodom and Gommorah and your questions could apply the same there.

God should be praised for destroying both - since any babies born into these "civilizations" were being born into a perpetual cycle of evil and (in my opinion only) had no chance to chose good from evil let alone follow God in such an environment. So God was justified in every way by killing ALL of them including the women and children.

My readings on this website and other places also make me almost suspect (Just a feeling - I have no proof) the earth was worshiping fallen angels and demons at that time. Given the limited knowledge of humans at that time any fallen angel or demon performing signs would have been considered a god.

It was all evil and God had every right to destroy them and any unborn babies at that time he was doing a favor - as they probably returned to heaven without having to have been born into LGBTQPB garbage.

[Blessed]

The ACPeds is a conservative advocacy group that opposes abortion and adoption by same-sex couples and favors abstinence-only sex education. Taking their claims as the unbiased, evidence-based position of the scientific community as a whole is like declaring that cigarettes are harmless because Citizens for Tobacco Rights says they are.

There's no scientific consensus on when life begins.

Vladimir Putin and the entire Russian Parliment also opposes "adoption by same sex couples" and issued a BAN to that affect because the vast majority of these "same sex couples" are gay males with Russian adoption agencies receiving consistent reports these "same sex couples" where disproportionaly using the adopted children for pedofilia purposes and indoctrinating them into the "gay lifestyle" before they graduated from 3rd grade.

There is basis to oppose adoption by same sex couples when the reports are dispropotionite - not to mention the lifestyle they indoctrinate these children into is harmful and spiritually sick. Just look at the lesbians who questioned their "son" if he was a boy or girl and when he gave them the answer he thought they wanted to hear - which they did - they dress up their son in a dress, give him a new name, buy him dolls houses and all that. The kid should be taken away into tax payer funded rehabilitation - and these "women" arrested , flogged and imprisoned.

Oh and by the way , now you know one of the real reasons our country's deep state government hates CHRISTIAN Russia so much and wants to destroy it.

Most Christians and baby boomers today I talk to are so ignorant as to what Russia truly stands for today - they still think the USA is a beacon of light and a Christian nation to others - ha ha ha ha ha - their ignorance is downright laughable.

[Blessed]

Hamster

God knows at what point it becomes murder. Ok?

[LittleHamster]

Here is another interesting observation for the Christians out there. At the time of Noah, God flooded the place. Regardless of whether it was total flooding or localized flooding, he would have put a fair number of unborn babies to death. What do we make of this ?

(i) There was no law at that time so it was ok for God to terminate pregnancies?
(ii) God can break his own laws (the ones yet to be given to humanity) to serve his purpose(s)?
(iii) God knew, of course, that the current generation that existed at the time of Noah was rather corrupt. He foresaw that all the unborn were not going to grow up and improve the situation. At his time, Grace did not exist, so salvation was not an option for that generation or their offspring. i.e., time to reset the lot ?
(iv) Unborn babies, do in fact, carry with them the original sin from their ancestors, so they are condemned even before they are born and therefore, God was(and still is) completely justified in terminating pregnancies?
(v) Other.....

--------------

By the way, thanks Blessed, I set my start page to gopher.com. I just need to run the TOR browser, secretly change my name, get some plastic surgery and viola ! I can surf anonymously

-------------

more points from you guys...

37. Murder needs malice, I don't think people have that when they are aborting. Not once have I ever witnessed that.viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42492#p237459
38. There is one thing every single one of us can agree with: That your parents decided not to abort you viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42492&start=15#p237465
39. I think abortion is a form of murder. But only past a certain point. 1) Soul infuses in flesh 2) Fetus becomes Sentient - in any form. Consequences are shown in Deuteronomy 28: 15-67. Deuteronomy 28: 43-45 "if you do not obey the Lord your God,(his commandments)...that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:" (i.e., a lot of nasty stuff) viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42492#p237454
40. The fetus is a human being. https://www.secularprolife.org/abortion
41. There is no consistent, objective distinction between "person" and "human being." https://www.secularprolife.org/abortion
42. Human beings possess human rights. https://www.secularprolife.org/abortion
43. Bodily integrity is not sufficient to justify most abortions. https://www.secularprolife.org/abortion
44. The general wrongness of killing people is, thankfully, a near-universal moral judgment https://www.secularprolife.org/abortion
45. It is also worth noting that bodily autonomy is essentially an after-the-fact rationalization; women do not actually have abortions in order to preserve their bodily autonomy. https://www.secularprolife.org/abortion

They shut it down. It's not working anymore. At least not on my web browser. It's been shut down for weeks.

I long suspected when a website came out that did everything Google used to do a few years after it came out - but with no spying and propaganda (any Google search reveals only MSM leftist Anti-Trump news from sources nobody reads anymore) I suspected it would take over Google search and that when Google noticed this they would use Law-fare to shut it down.


To you're main point - God never broke his word. If God takes life away it's not breaking his word. The entire world had turned to evil and was a servant of evil. Only Noah and his kin were found to have grace in the eyes of God. We see a similar story with Sodom and Gommorah and your questions could apply the same there.

God should be praised for destroying both - since any babies born into these "civilizations" were being born into a perpetual cycle of evil and (in my opinion only) had no chance to chose good from evil let alone follow God in such an environment. So God was justified in every way by killing ALL of them including the women and children.

My readings on this website and other places also make me almost suspect (Just a feeling - I have no proof) the earth was worshiping fallen angels and demons at that time. Given the limited knowledge of humans at that time any fallen angel or demon performing signs would have been considered a god.

It was all evil and God had every right to destroy them and any unborn babies at that time he was doing a favor - as they probably returned to heaven without having to have been born into LGBTQPB garbage.

Ahhhhh, I just discovered startpage.com today - "the world's most private search engine". If you can believe the title screen. It behaves exactly as google does without the snooping/logging of searches. Team that up with Firefox and its all good.

Yep, "The wage of sin is death" as stated somewhere in the bible. So all people were basically a "dead man walking". Why were those people thousands of years ago made an example of ? Well, there was no Grace for starters, so they got given the really hard lessons. Why did it take so long for God to incarnate and give his Grace ? According to the Mystics "Because the consciousness of the planet was not ready to receive the Christ Logos".

In my opinion, If Jesus appeared too early in the history of humanity, the teachings of God through Jesus Christ may not have been understood or propagated among humanity properly, they would be even more likely to get distorted/mistranslated as they were written down and/or transcribed. If Jesus arrived too late, perhaps no one would listen as everyone would be too set in their ways. Maybe he would have been shot dead before he could utter a word but this is unlikely as Jesus said himself, there is nothing anyone can do unless the Father in Heaven allows it.

[Blessed]

The wages of sin is death. And God is the final judge. Nobody said "all" people are "dead man walking". They were made an example of

1) Because it was Gods will, judgement and justice, praise God
2) Because they deserved it
3) To be made an example of


I don't know why it "took God so long" to do X Y and Z and neither do you but there is a plan and purpose to his actions. We do know through the bible and other sources GOD IS SLOW TO ANGER. If you read Lot's conversation with God in Genesis and read between the lines - you will see why he did not destroy S and G earlier. But please understand I am not an expert here.

Could've maybe if they well what if why not would have - you're going in circles and not reaching any points.

[LittleHamster]

Could've maybe if they well what if why not would have - you're going in circles and not reaching any points.

I think the word is "speculate". Yes, I am rambling on a bit - thinking out aloud again.

[Nils]

If life is sacred, human life at least, then ALL human life is sacred and since life begins at conception ( just ask NASA, when they look for life on another planet they look for it a the cellular level), then abortion is taking a life and a SIN.
The only thing left to discuss is under what conditions it is acceptable and, to me, the only one is if the life of the Mother is in danger.

Its is important to hold human life is in some way sacred. But it is important to understand why. It’s because it’s’ of extraordinary value to the society that it’s citizens are and feel safe from being killed. If there were no other competing values it would be easy to extend the sacredness to unborn humans starting at the conception. Now, there are other values.
1. Every person should have the right to be born wanted.
2. The parents should have the right to decide if and when they want a child.
3. Women should have the right to determine what happens to her body, at least to some extent.

I don’t argue for those statements now. It’s enough to say now that they exist and are widely embraced.

The best solution is as always is a compromise. In my country there is an unconditional right to get an abortion up to the 18:th week and in special cases up to the 22:th week. However most abortions, more than 80%, are done before the 9:th week. Lot of other countries have similar systems.

With this system there is enough time to the parents to contemplate all alternatives and the values 1 -3 can be fulfilled as fas as possible. What are the drawbacks then? Very few I think. The main purpose of a prohibition of abortion is to keep the value of life high. However, I am pretty sure that the valuing of life isn’t affected by liberal abortion laws. Most persons don’t think that abortion of a nine week old embryo is to be compared to murdering a child or an adult. Another aspect is the value of life for the aborted fetus. Nobody would say that there is a value to save a 20 week old fetus that had stopped its development and would remain on the 20 week level for ever. The reason to value the fetus life is the potentiality to grow to a human person, not its current cognitive, emotional etc level. But the argument is weak. Just one example. Why should parents have to prefer the potential of the fetus instead of the potential of another fetus that they can get later, at a time that suits them better.

A society with liberal abortion laws will be a better society even if some principles have to be adjusted. So the consequences of the Irish decision are good.

Nils

[PaulSacramento]

Slippery slope...

Subject value of life leads to, SUBJECT VALUE OF LIFE.

[Kurieuo]

Nils is from Sweden, so... their subjectivism will soon subject them to Sharia law. It's just as good as any other really, a matter of taste. People will adjust fine. Nils, isn't your country already an Islamic state?

[Stu]

Nils is from Sweden, so... their subjectivism will soon subject them to Sharia law. It's just as good as any other really, a matter of taste. People will adjust fine. Nils, isn't your country already an Islamic state?

Careful, I've heard of people that spoke against immigration that have been fined, so Nils had better be nice...

In case you think I'm exaggerating: 74-YEAR-OLD SWEDISH WOMAN PROSECUTED FOR CRITICIZING MASS IMMIGRATION