Fix-it Ticket

[Kurieuo]

No, and equally it doesn't prevent him from losing his freedom and getting thrown back in jail. So then, are you saying just those sins when we come to Christ are paid for, that if we repeat sinning then we're still in danger of being condemned?

If you're a sinner, you are condemned whether you're sinning or not. As a Christian sinner, we have assurance of salvation, but that doesn't mean we get to sin willy-nilly...does it?

There is no such thing as a Christian sinner -- for no one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. (1 John 3:6) Read that verse closely, and then tell me, do you continue sinning Bav? If you do, then according to Scripture you don't know Christ.

You should read on past verse 6 and ask yourself how it is we know the difference between sin and not sin...then read carefully Romans 3:20 and the surrounding verses as well.

Then read through 1 Timothy 1:15 and ask yourself what tense the writer is using in conveying his sinfulness. Certainly not past tense.

I've read the whole chapter of 1 John 3:6 and it only gets worse further down.

1 John 3
See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Any Christian who sins should find this passage troubling. According to everything we've been taught about being saved by grace through faith in Christ, a passage like this ought not exist.

So then, I ask you Bav, how do you navigate this passage? It does no good to ignore what is plainly written here. Specifically the following points:

• no one abides in Christ who keeps on sinning
• no one who keeps on sinning knows Christ
• worse yet, whoever practices sin is of the devil
• no one born of God practices sinning
• if God's seed abides in us, then we cannot sin because we're born of God

Now some hard questions for all Christians, but I'm speaking mainly to you Bav.

According to this passage, can someone who truly has Christ sin?
Do you sin? According to 1 John 3 are you of the devil or born of God?

This passage above should make anyone who claims to believe in Christ feel extremely uncomfortable.

I present these passages and ask you these questions Bav because you seem to believe there is such a thing as a Christian sinner. Your question to do with keeping the law or flagrantly sinning after coming to Christ requires this belief, and it is one I actually reject. I'm telling you there is no such thing, according to Scripture, as a Christian sinner. Rather we are righteous and without sin. We must be righteous or God can't accept us, and if we're not of God then we're of the devil -- we can't be both righteous and sinful but must either be one or the other.

[BavarianWheels]

No, and equally it doesn't prevent him from losing his freedom and getting thrown back in jail. So then, are you saying just those sins when we come to Christ are paid for, that if we repeat sinning then we're still in danger of being condemned?

If you're a sinner, you are condemned whether you're sinning or not. As a Christian sinner, we have assurance of salvation, but that doesn't mean we get to sin willy-nilly...does it?

There is no such thing as a Christian sinner -- for no one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. (1 John 3:6) Read that verse closely, and then tell me, do you continue sinning Bav? If you do, then according to Scripture you don't know Christ.

You should read on past verse 6 and ask yourself how it is we know the difference between sin and not sin...then read carefully Romans 3:20 and the surrounding verses as well.

Then read through 1 Timothy 1:15 and ask yourself what tense the writer is using in conveying his sinfulness. Certainly not past tense.

I've read the whole chapter of 1 John 3:6 and it only gets worse further down.

1 John 3
See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Any Christian who sins should find this passage troubling. According to everything we've been taught about being saved by grace through faith in Christ, a passage like this ought not exist.

So then, I ask you Bav, how do you navigate this passage? It does no good to ignore what is plainly written here. Specifically the following points:

• no one abides in Christ who keeps on sinning
• no one who keeps on sinning knows Christ
• worse yet, whoever practices sin is of the devil
• no one born of God practices sinning
• if God's seed abides in us, then we cannot sin because we're born of God

Now some hard questions for all Christians, but I'm speaking mainly to you Bav.

According to this passage, can someone who truly has Christ sin?
Do you sin? According to 1 John 3 are you of the devil or born of God?

This passage above should make anyone who claims to believe in Christ feel extremely uncomfortable.

I present these passages and ask you these questions Bav because you seem to believe there is such a thing as a Christian sinner. Your question to do with keeping the law or flagrantly sinning after coming to Christ requires this belief, and it is one I actually reject. I'm telling you there is no such thing, according to Scripture, as a Christian sinner. Rather we are righteous and without sin. We must be righteous or God can't accept us, and if we're not of God then we're of the devil -- we can't be both righteous and sinful but must either be one or the other.

I believe in a Christian sinner because all are sinful and in need of a Savior. The only people flagrantly sinning here are those that push aside God's law as no longer law! ( Not to say I or others don't flagrantly sin in other manners and on the law too!...but in context of what you're saying ).

There is such a thing as a Christian sinner... ( See 1 Timothy 1:15 ). He doesn't say, "I was the worst sinner." He says, "I AM the worst sinner." That is present and continuous.

We are never righteous on this side of life...I really fear you have no clue what the Gospel is.

The Gospel is this:

Our STANDING in Christ is saved. We have assurance.
But our STATE is still in this body of sin. We are still sinners in need of a Savior.

We don't need to attain to any perfection as Christ is perfect for us.
Everything that can be done FOR us is DONE. But as Revelation 22:12 clearly states, His reward is with Him ( Christ ) when He returns.

You conveniently forgot to highlight 1 John 3:7...

Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;

...and if the righteous are to practice righteousness, how is it they know what is righteous?

The Law...the 10. These remain as God's measurement of righteousness from beginning through eternity.
.
.

[jpbg33]

I do not think there is a such thing as saved sinners. I think that Paul was saying that Jesus came to save sinners, and out of all the sinners that Jesus will save he deems him self to be the worst.

[RickD]

I do not think there is a such thing as saved sinners. I think that Paul was saying that Jesus came to save sinners, and out of all the sinners that Jesus will save he deems him self to be the worst.

What does 1 Timothy 1:15 say?

It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.

Paul said "I am", not "I was".

So you're saying, either Paul was lying, or he wasn't saved. Which was it?

[jpbg33]

you missed read what I said.

I said he was not talking about being a current sinner but rather he was saying that out of all the people that Jesus has saved he was currently the worst one of them all.

Not that he was currently a sinner but if you were to rank all the sinners that were to be saved and compare them by the sins that they committed before they were saved he would have been the worst of them all.

[RickD]

you missed read what I said.

I said he was not talking about being a current sinner but rather he was saying that out of all the people that Jesus has saved he was currently the worst one of them all.

Not that he was currently a sinner but if you were to rank all the sinners that were to be saved and compare them by the sins that they committed before they were saved he would have been the worst of them all.

And you misread what Paul wrote. Again, Paul said "I am", not "I was".

When someone says, "I am", that means "I currently am", not "I was".

Comprende?

[jpbg33]

yes I believe Paul was saying he was currently the worst sinner to be saved by Jesus. But I do not believe he though he was still a sinner.

[RickD]

yes I believe Paul was saying he was currently the worst sinner to be saved by Jesus. But I do not believe he though he was still a sinner.

[jpbg33]

Let's see so it seem you are saying that Paul was the worst sinner of all even after he was sved.

So Paul which you believe was the worst sinner just out there out sinning them all. Wrote the books of the bible while sinning away.

One question why would any of the Christians of that time believe a word he said if he was out there sinning away. Now come on that doesn't make any sense.

What was he talking about when he ask for John Mark to be sent to him because Demes( not sure how to spell that name )had forsaken him loveing this pressent world.

If Demes loved the pressent world then why was he forsaking the biggest sinner of them all.

[RickD]

One characteristic of a believer, is that even though he is forgiven, he still realizes that he is a sinner.

Seems like you have a problem with Paul saying, "I am" a sinner, instead of "I was" a sinner.

The text says what it says. You don't have to believe it.

[jpbg33]

You are taking the meaning you like and refuse to admit there is another mean. All scripture has to agree the bible says he that sins is of the devil and Paul did not think he was of the devil.