The truth about Abortion

[Nessa]

Moderator edit: Warning! Graphic Content!
I got about 1:30 into the video, and saw where it was going, so I stopped watching.

Watch at your own risk.

[LittleHamster]

Gruesome ! After performing at least 1200 abortions, ripping out body parts, blood'n'guts splattering everywhere. Then he decides it's a bad thing

I figure that we are all wanting to post our POV again anyways........





But before we get another 10,000 posts on Abortion, here are some arguments I've listed (mostly from these threads viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42492, viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296)


1. Ensoulment - is the moment at which a human being gains a soul. Some religions say that a soul is newly created within a developing child and others, especially in religions that believe in reincarnation, that the soul is pre-existing and added at a particular stage of development. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=120#p234074
2. There is an eternal soul (originating from a Holy Monad) which develops by 'acquiring' experiences from an incarnated human being.
3. There are many spirit souls (since there are an infinite number of Holy Monads) wanting to incarnate in this world.
4. It takes seven years to develop a good human-spirit soul connection.
5. Its the 'miracle of miracles' to conceive a child. To have a child is the greatest gift from God to man.
6. An embryo or fetus has no physical consciousness or self-awareness.
7. There is a large amount of energy expended in conceiving a child.
8. If no abortion takes place and the child is unwanted by the parents, it may grow to develop serious psychological problems later in life.
9. Abortion is likely to be classed as justifiable homicide rather than murder in the eyes of some civil laws.
10. Divine laws may be violated.
11. To have a child is one of God's commands (a command of the spiritual world).
12. A terminated embryo or foetus may continue to grow and develop in the afterlife but is denied worldly experiences.
13. There is only a physiological difference between a embryo and and 9 month old unborn foetus.
14. Spirit enters the child when it takes its first breath.
15. Woman's personality may permanently change for the worse after the termination of her pregnancy.
16. Women are sadly often just as much a victim as the baby. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=135#p234230
17. A scientific study classes conception as the point when a human becomes a person.
18. Abortion is murder viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=105#p234023
19. Exodus 21:22 Addresses what God says about the unborn viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=105#p234024
20. Biology tells us from conception there exists human life viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=90#p234003
21. Every person has their own compass to navigate. Fortunately or unfortunately we don’t get to chose when we think free will is a choice. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=90#p234004
22. Pros and Cons are subjective.This makes sense if you are an atheist/evolutionist because your worldview allows for it. As a Christian, it's simple, the Bible doesn't allow you to just kill your unborn baby. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=90#p234005
23. Yes we have freewill, BUT God also set us LIMITATIONS that we must abide by. Freewill but only so far. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=90#p234008
24. I maintain that its silly to call abortion murder. Just a lot of emotional hyperbole thrown around. I don't advocate abortion but I understand why it happens and sometimes there are plenty of justified reasons for it. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=90#p234008
25. It's necessary in conditions of extreme poverty, viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=90#p234013
26. Killing in war is different to killing in pregnancy viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=60#p233955, viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=60#p233956
27. A human being is a person... not a problem viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=60#p233960
28. The reason I said it's not murder is that it technically just isn't viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=60#p233960
29. Calling someone a murderer for having an abortion is silly. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=60#p233974
30. Jeremiah 1:5: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you;" Isaiah 49:5: "And now the Lord says, he who formed me from the womb to be his servant,"....viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=45#p233942
31. There is no justification, cause or valid reason to kill an unborn child. That right belongs to God, and Him alone.viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=45#p233943
32. Purgatory was one of the most brilliant money-making schemes in history! viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42296&start=30#p233906
34. Human Being Defn., a man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens, distinguished from other animals by superior mental development, power of articulate speech, and upright stance.
or
35. Human Being Defn., Simply that a human is a member of the Human Species, which is crudely (and incompletely) defined as those who can produce fertile offspring when breeding with another member of the species.
or
36. Human Being Defn., A bunch of embryonic cells which are rapidly forming into a human, etc...
37. Murder needs malice, I don't think people have that when they are aborting. Not once have I ever witnessed that.viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42492#p237459
38. There is one thing every single one of us can agree with: That your parents decided not to abort you viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42492&start=15#p237465
39. I think abortion is a form of murder. But only past a certain point. 1) Soul infuses in flesh 2) Fetus becomes Sentient - in any form. Consequences are shown in Deuteronomy 28: 15-67. Deuteronomy 28: 43-45 "if you do not obey the Lord your God,(his commandments)...that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:" (i.e., a lot of nasty stuff) viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42492#p237454
40. The fetus is a human being. https://www.secularprolife.org/abortion
41. There is no consistent, objective distinction between "person" and "human being."https://www.secularprolife.org/abortion
42. Human beings possess human rights. https://www.secularprolife.org/abortion
43. Bodily integrity is not sufficient to justify most abortions. https://www.secularprolife.org/abortion
44. The general wrongness of killing people is, thankfully, a near-universal moral judgment https://www.secularprolife.org/abortion
45. It is also worth noting that bodily autonomy is essentially an after-the-fact rationalization; women do not actually have abortions in order to preserve their bodily autonomy. https://www.secularprolife.org/abortion

[LittleHamster]

From a Christian perspective, all I can add is that the only thing that is important is that of doing God's will. How many people here are completely aware of God's will for any particular circumstance ?

I'm not talking about the knowing of what to do from stuff that's written, but of knowing super-consciously and precisely what the will of God is for any particular circumstance. The answer to that is probably none of us.

It's almost impossible to maintain prolonged contact (by our own effort or by the will from above) with the Holy Spirit or our Guardian Angel for extended periods of time. Even if we lived in a cave for 10 years with minimal distractions it is still difficult (too much sin-thoughts get in the way).

The best thing most of us can do is take cue's or promptings from above. Even that requires a certain amount of time to develop (under Grace).

And the next best thing the majority of humanity can do is rely on scripture, thoughts (proper reasoning), feelings, conscience and intuition.


Choooooose Wissssssssely...........Choooooose God's Will

[thatkidakayoungguy]

I find it interesting that a woman can have the right to abort a child, as well as having the man pay child support and be more likely to get away with tricking a man into such things, like poking holes in condoms. As far as I'm aware the man has little to no say in such matters, but we're supposed to be about equality.
Why does no one mention this, but a few who usually get derided and called hateful or even tormented (think about it)?

[Nessa]

Who put the warning?

[Nessa]

I know it wasn't kurieuo

[PaulSacramento]

Killing, the taking of a life, unless in the protection of another life, is wrong and the true definition of murder.
Science has shown that life begins at conception ( even a single celled organism is thought to be alive according to science).
To take a life for any other reason than for the protection of another is, simply, wrong.

[LittleHamster]

Killing, the taking of a life, unless in the protection of another life, is wrong and the true definition of murder.
Science has shown that life begins at conception ( even a single celled organism is thought to be alive according to science).
To take a life for any other reason than for the protection of another is, simply, wrong.

Are you calling God a Murderer when he wiped out the entire population of the earth including all those unborn babies during the great Flood ? Relax, I know you're not really calling God a murderer but it seems there are exceptions !

You could call this a religious issue. i.e., where God's will may differ depending on the circumstance. How do we know for sure that an abortion is murder if it is God's will that two wicked people should NOT get together and NOT produce wicked children - where God can see that they will never receive salvation and only cause further misery and suffering for future generations? (just like in the time of the great flood)




Choooooose Wissssssssely...........Choooooose God's Will

[Philip]

Hammie: Are you calling God a Murderer when he wiped out the entire population of the earth including all those unborn babies during the great Flood ? It's ok, I know you're not calling God a murderer (I'm just winding you up a bit Paul) but it seems there are exceptions !

Anyone who thinks God does what we would consider immoral, might want to read this important book!



https://www.amazon.com/God-Moral-Monste ... al+monster

A video by the author

Hammie: How do we know for sure that an abortion is murder if it is God's will that two wicked people should get together and NOT produce wicked children - where God can see that they will never receive salvation ?

The Bible tells us God does not tempt us to evil, nor cause it. And infant born via the union of two evil persons is not responsible for the sins of the parents! But he CAN and does use the evil intentions of others to produce good and unexpected outcomes that were not intended by evil persons.

There are excellent Scriptural reasons to believe that young children and infants who die - yet immature and not yet (thus incapable of) understanding their personal responsibility before God, nor an acute awareness of their sins - immediately go into the arms of the Lord at death.

What does the Bible say about the death of infants and young children?

Here is a very detailed Scriptural study of the issue, by Norman Geisler, one of the world's most respected evangelical theologians:

https://www.jashow.org/articles/the-sal ... ts-part-1/

https://www.jashow.org/articles/the-sal ... ts-part-2/

https://www.jashow.org/articles/the-sal ... ts-part-3/

[Kurieuo]

I know it wasn't kurieuo

Blame Rick. He's scared to put his hand up I think.

Poster Warnings are good though. You know me, so understand I'd know how horrible abortions are and have watched and listened to such things before. It is interesting people advocate women having an abortion without really, I mean REALLY, looking into what it is and happens to the unborn child depending upon the stage of his/her development.

Being as sensative as I am to stuff, when I think how there are local clinics with "doctors" ripping a child apart close to me -- its all legally sanctioned in a willfully blind society. I just can't function well. Mrs K is active socially on such, it's probably one reason I had to close down my Facebook account -- I'd get some of her depressing posts and articles.

[RickD]

It 'twas me.

I think there's a place for these kinds of videos. Speaking graphically about abortion, can be an effective tool to open people's eyes.

I just think on this forum, people need to be aware if something is graphic.

As I said, I only got about 1:30 into it, and couldn't watch anymore. I just don't have the stomach for that stuff anymore. If the video is not what I thought, feel free to take the warning down.

[LittleHamster]

Hammie: Are you calling God a Murderer when he wiped out the entire population of the earth including all those unborn babies during the great Flood ? It's ok, I know you're not calling God a murderer (I'm just winding you up a bit Paul) but it seems there are exceptions !

Anyone who thinks God does what we would consider immoral, might want to read this important book!



https://www.amazon.com/God-Moral-Monste ... al+monster

A video by the author

Hammie: How do we know for sure that an abortion is murder if it is God's will that two wicked people should get together and NOT produce wicked children - where God can see that they will never receive salvation ?

The Bible tells us God does not tempt us to evil, nor cause it. And infant born via the union of two evil persons is not responsible for the sins of the parents! But he CAN and does use the evil intentions of others to produce good and unexpected outcomes that were not intended by evil persons.

There are excellent Scriptural reasons to believe that young children and infants who die - yet immature and not yet (thus incapable of) understanding their personal responsibility before God, nor an acute awareness of their sins - immediately go into the arms of the Lord at death.

What does the Bible say about the death of infants and young children?

Here is a very detailed Scriptural study of the issue, by Norman Geisler, one of the world's most respected evangelical theologians:

https://www.jashow.org/articles/the-sal ... ts-part-1/

https://www.jashow.org/articles/the-sal ... ts-part-2/

https://www.jashow.org/articles/the-sal ... ts-part-3/

My wife says. "Of course, they continue on the other side and eventually go to heaven, etc, etc"

Those links were interesting but still highly speculative, even the author pointed out "nowhere does the bible directly treat the issue (of infant salvation), we are left to arguments based on general principle and inference from Scripture".

I will ponder these issues over the next couple of weeks I think

(i) Infant salvation,

(ii) The fate of unborn children,

(iii) If God can terminate a pregnancy and do so Justifiably (without sin), then can a woman do the same if it was according to the will of God? (if she knew or even if she did not know it was the will of God) ?

Might have to consult my notes on ...... *cue music portraying hamster moving into dangerous territory* ......Christian Mysticism !!!!

[PaulSacramento]

Killing, the taking of a life, unless in the protection of another life, is wrong and the true definition of murder.
Science has shown that life begins at conception ( even a single celled organism is thought to be alive according to science).
To take a life for any other reason than for the protection of another is, simply, wrong.

Are you calling God a Murderer when he wiped out the entire population of the earth including all those unborn babies during the great Flood ? Relax, I know you're not really calling God a murderer but it seems there are exceptions !

You could call this a religious issue. i.e., where God's will may differ depending on the circumstance. How do we know for sure that an abortion is murder if it is God's will that two wicked people should NOT get together and NOT produce wicked children - where God can see that they will never receive salvation and only cause further misery and suffering for future generations? (just like in the time of the great flood)




Choooooose Wissssssssely...........Choooooose God's Will

Why did God flood that area?

[LittleHamster]

Killing, the taking of a life, unless in the protection of another life, is wrong and the true definition of murder.
Science has shown that life begins at conception ( even a single celled organism is thought to be alive according to science).
To take a life for any other reason than for the protection of another is, simply, wrong.

Are you calling God a Murderer when he wiped out the entire population of the earth including all those unborn babies during the great Flood ? Relax, I know you're not really calling God a murderer but it seems there are exceptions !

You could call this a religious issue. i.e., where God's will may differ depending on the circumstance. How do we know for sure that an abortion is murder if it is God's will that two wicked people should NOT get together and NOT produce wicked children - where God can see that they will never receive salvation and only cause further misery and suffering for future generations? (just like in the time of the great flood)




Choooooose Wissssssssely...........Choooooose God's Will

Why did God flood that area?

The answer to that was going to be one of the points of my argument.

[Philip]

There are reasons both that King David expressed belief and confidence that his dead infant son with Bathsheba was with the Lord, stopped grieving, AND that God wanted this recorded in Scripture. Would God mislead us? Would He want those who have lost young children to obtain false hope from this passage? Also, God requires of men and women, of those with an awareness of their sin and responsibilities before God, things that young children and infants cannot know of or yet understand. Same scenario with people that are severely retarded or mentally unfit. God places responsibility and the requirement they embrace him in faith ONLY to those who can understand such things - NOT of those who cannot (young children / infants). God is just - and He is also more than fair.

As well, God might not have specifically stated this in the various relevant passages because there are people with massive Scriptural ignorance that might sickly interpret such a statement as allowing and justifying them to kill their children - which wasn't uncommon in David's day (or ours, unfortunately). Across Scripture, God condemns only those who could embrace Him, are aware of their sin, but refuse to. Perhaps how one views this issue is also a measure of how they view Reformed beliefs?