Denial of the Supernatural aspects of God and the demonic

[B. W.]

Folks, opening this thread to investigate the current denial of the supernatural workings of God today and the reasons why the demonic realm is denied today in modern Christian denominations and schools. We have a whole new crop of pastors coming out of seminaries very ill equipped to deal this subject.

1- Ancient Pagan gods of Canaanite/Mesopotamian/Greek/Egyptian religions are treated as harmless myths while the bible is filled with examples of God's wrath pour out on those who practiced such in both the OT and NT.

2-This has lead to the rise of the occult in America today where there are more witches than Presbyterians in America. More New Age occultism passed off as Christian where they practice Yoga, Fire Tunnels, Angel Cards and Angels Boards, and a host of stuff as well as a new form of Astral Projection as Christian in the church.

3-Much of the Church relying of seeker sensitive model of Church growth know as the Peter Drucker model see:
https://www.christianitytoday.com/pasto ... l2014.html

4- NYC Hillsong movement and its errors and occult symbolism used in its services

5-Denial that there is a real hell being taught in Churches and all is heaven only

6-Basic Christian salvation Doctrine is not important and downplayed

7-Sermons mainly on "ITS ALL ABOUT YOU" and "God is your loving servant"

8-the loss of the meaning of these verses concerning God's Grace:

Proverbs 3:34 Surely He scorns the scornful, But gives grace to the humble.

James 4:5-8,"Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, "The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"? But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: "GOD RESISTS THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE." Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded."

1 Peter 5:5 "...Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for "GOD RESISTS THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE." NKJV

Which shows that God's grace indeed comes with a condition - clarified in...

Titus 2:11-15, "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you." NKJV

Think about that verse and what the modern teaching on grace which basically says - anything goes...

9-Boring dead Churches devoid of truth of the bible in them

10-The church becoming more relevant to the world's culture see - John 15:19, 1 John 2:15

Midst all this, more folks are leaving churches by disillusionment and falling into the occult and paganism. Or simply left to die alone without hope and God in this world.

All this falls on the shoulders of all those who deny the supernaturalness of God Himself as active and alive today. Who teach the ancient pagan religions as harmless myths and cute moral stories. Deny that there were fallen angels who corrupted humanity and still do so today. Deny demons as real despite the evidence of their works seen on the news as they influence people to kill, rob, and destroy.

All who have brought in Positivism into the Churches and Seminaries as the only manner to properly interpret scripture while the world and much of the modern church world sides further down hill.

Folks this is a controversial subject as it forces folks to look at themselves and the world around them.

I worked in the field of criminal justice and involved with court system and with the front line police offices who are in the line of fire. We all have seen evil you have 'no' idea about. I cleaned body bags of crime scenes victims and seen enough gore that I am numb to it.

I travel to speak to different churches, locations, do radio shows, and have to deal with oppressed people and folks desiring suicide. Have to deal with parents watching their kids lose their faith in colleges when they learn about ancient paganism and how Enki gave birth to the God of the bible - which is false.

I Have to deal with folks who don't know what to do because what their churches do and teach does not help them as they feel they cannot really tell what is going on in the home with shadow people, slender man, strange going on as they get mocked and told to get on meds and don;t worry about it.

Well the gates of hell are winning against the church but not for long for those who know God and are known by him...

This is open to discussion - peace...
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[LittleHamster]

Hiya B.W. ! Thanks for Posting this.

I think it's fairly obvious to most of us here that the majority of Humanity are under the 'curse of the law'. That is, people are mostly driven by egotistical desires and worldly pursuits. They don't have the 'right target' so to speak. So people end up straying all over the place in terms of the proper way to behave, what to study, what to worship and how to live a 'Godly' life. Some people get highly obsessed or bogged down with those worldly pursuits - these include things such as science, some with occultism, some with stamp collecting, etc., totally ignoring God in their life.

Fair enough. Everyone is born and grows up that way (with the exception of a handful of people) . Now, due to their sinful behavior, a person will either :-

(i) Find life difficult and become overburdened with issues due to reckless living and eventually come to their senses (accepting Christ as their savior) and come to the Father as described in the parable of prodigal son or

(ii) Continue on with worldly pursuits (some being detrimental to themselves and others) - i.e., be subject to the burdens brought on by the Law - this includes all the good and bad stuff - accidents, disease, arguments, fights, winfalls, etc..



Let's examine a mystical aspect of being 'under the Law' (Warning, it can be dangerous)

_____________________________________________________________________________________


The parable below describes what causes a lot of the (sometimes bad) stuff that can happen in the life of a human being.

"When an unclean spirit comes out of a man, it passes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ 25 On its return, it finds the house swept clean and put in order. 26 Then it goes and brings seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they go in and dwell there. And the final plight of that man is worse than the first.” - Luke 11:24, Matthew 12:43


Mystical Interpretation: (- From “The Magus of Strovolos” by Kyriagos C. Markides)

The subject of Daskalos’ talk was elementals (thought forms). At first he summarized many of the ideas he had discussed during previous meetings. It was his pedagogic method to repeat old material on a routine basis until his students had fully digested it.

Elementals, he said, have a life of their own just like any other living form and can have an existence independent of the one who projected them. Any thought and any feeling that an individual projects is an elemental. He then proceeded to explain that there are two kinds of elementals: those that are produced subconsciously, which he called elementals of desires-thoughts,’ and those consciously constructed and called elementals of ‘thoughts-desires.’ An individual, he went on, can vibrate through thoughts and sentiments. The way a person vibrates determines the type and quality of the elementals he creates. When he vibrates primarily through sentiments, he is under the impact of emotions and desires, thought playing a subservient role. These are the elementals of desires-thoughts. When an individual is under the influence of thought, he builds elementals made of noetic substance and becomes a master of the power of visual imagery. A Researcher of Truth should train himself to build powerful but benign elementals made up of strong thoughts within which desire and sentiment play a supportive role. Such elementals of thoughts-desires last longer, are more powerful and tend to accomplish the task for which they were constructed much faster.

Elementals of desires-thoughts are characteristic of ordinary people who lack an understanding of the nature of thought and desire. Consequently they often fall prey to the very elementals they themselves create. It is the law of Nature that once elementals are projected outwards they eventually return to the subconscious of the person who created them. Then they surface from the pool of his memory to the conscious level in order to acquire new energy and withdraw again. The same cycle is repeated until such elementals succeed in staying within the subconscious of the person on a more permanent basis.
They then absorb energy from the etheric-double of the individual and in this manner they extend their life. This is how habits and obsessions such as smoking, gambling and drinking are being formed.

The tendency of elementals to return to their source is what makes the law of Karma possible. An individual sooner or later will be confronted with the elementals that he consciously or subconsciously creates. In a conversation I once had with Daskalos he maintained that elementals of strong desires may return to the person that gave them birth at a time when he least desires them.

Elementals are built with the very substance with which personality and the universes in general are built, that is, with etheric matter of the noetic, psychic, and gross material worlds.

‘Let us examine,’ Daskalos continued as the audience of about thirty persons listened attentively, ‘the process by which an elemental is being formed. You will notice that it is not possible for a human being to desire something before he becomes aware of its existence. For example, when I see an object it means that etheric vibrations of light hit its surface and transfer images and forms to my eyes. They cause an irritation on the optic nerve and then on the brain which is imprinted as “seeing.” Suppose now that I see an object which men consider precious, say a diamond necklace. I become aware of the existence of this object through my sight. Suppose that I am a person who has a strong desire for diamond necklaces. What happens then? Psychic matter is gathered around the image of the necklace. Desire is formed. It is precisely psychic matter that makes possible the birth of a desire which is followed by thoughts on how to satisfy it, in this case how to acquire the necklace. Around that object a series of elementals is being formed having as their ultimate goal the acquisition of that object by the person who projected them. An awareness of its existence and desire to know or possess it are not, alone, sufficient. Thoughts about it must follow in order for such an elemental to be created. The individual subconsciously begins the process of visual imagery.

‘Suppose we take this person to a place away from the desired necklace and ask him to bring it to his mind. Most likely he will recreate it in the greatest detail. Someone else who saw the same object but who was not impressed by it will not be able to reconstruct it in his mind so accurately. Therefore, concentration and desire lead us to the construction of images made of noetic matter. This is what thought is all about, the condensation of noetic matter. We begin to see that object through noetic light. Now pay attention. What are real possessions? Are they those objects which ordinary people consider real? Or are they the elementals that we have constructed inside us? Suppose we take a precious object that we own and lock it up in a safe. The elemental of that object is inside us, is part of us. It exists in the pool of our memory and we can bring it to consciousness any time we wish. It is ours. It seems to you, however, that it is not real. And yet if you cannot bring it to your memory, how ean you have knowledge of the material object in the safe? Think about it. Let me put it differendy. Suppose that a very wealthy individual who knows that in aseeret safe he has some very valuable objects suffers from amnesia. Everything within his memory collapses and is dissolved. What value do you think the objects outside his mind will have? None. Therefore, where is the real source af value af things? Pay attention to these points which you need to study.

Otherwise you will not be able to penetrate and understand the nature of Life. What is Life in reality other than receiving impressions and interpreting them. Just think af the world around you. Can you perceive it outside af these elementals?

‘You must realize by now that whether we perceive the world as good or as evil will depend on the kinds of elementals we construet inside us and project outward. Nothing, absolutely nothing, has any value in the world af the three dimensions if it does not also have value within us. It is what has value inside us which bestows value to whatever is outside of us. What, for example, does the phrase “lack of interest” mean? When an object outside af us does not have its counterpart inside us it has no value. So where has this condition come from? From the object or from within us? Everything is inside us.’ Daskalos stopped his talk for a few seconds and then proceeded to elaborate on the physical appearance of elementals, or more precisely on how elementals are perceived by a clairvoyant like himself.

‘When an elemental is created, its image will appear at the base af the nose right on the chakra that lies between the two eyes. A clairvoyant will notice that it appears first in the shape of a needle’s head. The moment it is thrust out of the ethericdouble of the individual, it begins to acquire its natural size and shape. It will then move into the psychic worlds and will make a cyclical movement the size of which will depend on the strength of the desire. Then it will return to the person. At this moment it will enter into his psychic body but not in the same place from which it exited. It will make an entrance through a different center, that which is at the back af the skull.

‘The shape of an elemental will depend on its type. It may be a desired house, a bicycle, or a car, and so on. These are examples of concrete images of desires-thoughts that remain within the subconscious for a relatively short time. They do so because such elementals, as I have said, seek a new lease on life in the same manner that an embryo seeks food. It will surface again at the disc between the two eyes and will seek an exit.

The analogous vibrations in the psychic body of the person will begin again. He will remember it and the desire will become stronger. The elemental will detach itself once more and move on its cyclical trajectory. An ordinary individual does not realize what is happening. The elemental will tend to dominate him. It may become so powerful that he may not be able to control it. In such a case the individual is a slave to his desire which sometimes may be so intense that it could lead him to the asylum. It is possible that such an elemental may absorb so much etheric substance from the individual that it may even enable it to literally materialize itself. Let us not talk about this unfortunate development for the time being.

‘What about morbid conditions that emerge directly as a result of our egotism such as anger, ostentation, hatred, feelings of being hurt, of showing off and the like? These elementals are constructed in the same way as all other elementals. Note that egotism is itself an elemental which is already formed within the self-conscious personality. It is the product of the repetition of many elementals. It is so sensitive that the slightest provocation sets it in motion. Egotism can create a variety of elementals. For example we have noticed from experience that when an individual has evil and malicious thoughts against someone, the elementals he creates have the shape of snakes with various dark colors, usually putrid green. They come out either from the heart or from the base of the nose. They move towards the person against whom we consciously or subconsciously direct them and they tend to stick to the aura of that person. Eventually they return to us. Sometimes such elementals acquire the size of an anaconda and when they return to us we feel our heart tighten.

‘Have you ever considered how many such elementals people create daily? Had they been able to see the form of the elementals they project, they would have been filled with terror.
This is what is commonly called the “evil eye.” I once saw a painting of a man confessing his sins and there were snakes coming out of his mouth. Do not think that they were the fantasies of the artist. A clairvoyant can literally see these snakes. How often do you see such elementals come to you during sleep and frighten you? These elementals are either sent to you by others or they are your own creation. It is also possible that you might have picked them up in your sleep from the pool of elementals floating and wandering in the etheric world. Elementals of desires-thoughts have shape, power and a life of their own. They can become snakes and bears and other animals. Children often see them in their sleep and have nightmares.’ Daskalos then went on to explain that we can close the door of perception of such elementals by making appropriate autosuggestions such as a prayer before going to sleep. ‘We can also calm down by sending thoughts of love even to those who dislike us. By doing so we disarm them. They can no longer send us elementals that haunt us in our sleep. ‘Daskale,’ I interrupted, ‘why do elementals of hate and jealousy look like snakes and not like something else? Is shape inherent in the very nature of the elemental?’ ‘Elementals of hate and jealousy look like snakes because in our culture we have this association. There is nothing inherently evil about snakes or any other animal for that matter. The way an elemental appears depends on the language of the person and the place from which he comes. Elementals are psychonoetic energy charges that can assume any shape depending on who creates them. A clairvoyant can see them in a shape consistent with his background.’ ‘So,’ I continued, ‘a clairvoyant from another culture may see the same elementals in the shape, say, of coyotes rather than snakes.’ ‘Exactly. But both will see the same causal connection between the projected elementals and their effects.’ ‘Daskale,’ a middle-aged man asked, ‘how can we dissolve and neutralize the power of elementals that we ourselves have subconsciously created?’ ‘You must keep in mind,’ Daskalos replied, ‘that the power and form of elementals will not be dissolved until they have accomplished the task for which they have been built. It is for this reason that we must be ready to face the consequenees of our thoughts and actions. An elemental will keep us accountable not only in this life but also in succeeding incarnations.

Therefore the builder of an elemental will have to sooner or later confront the elementals that he himself has construeted. You may wonder whether we can today avoid the influenece of former conditions. Yes, assuming that we employ equal power with that of the elementals that we have constructed.
But we need wisdom and a desire to redress past errors. We can resist the impact of old elementals or we may succumb to them by creating similar ones and by reinforcing the old elementals.’ ‘How can we fight,’ someone asked, ‘elementals such as smoking or drinking? Is it by avoiding situations where people smoke or drink?’ ‘First of all you must not fight such elementals. The enemy is invisible and is bound to defeat you. By waging an aggressive war against such an elemental you energize it. The way to neutralize its power is to ignore it. Let me give you an example.

In our society today we see a lot of people quarreling fanatically over politics. Political fights are on a daily basis often leading even families to split up. These are terrible things that turn people into fools. I knew someone like that who tried repeatedly to avoid political fights but to no avail. He always managed somehow to get entangled into political quarrels and tremble with rage. “I can’t stand hearing them talk like that,” he told me. You see the elemental of narcissism was very powerful in him. He wanted to show off, to prove that he knew more than others and to impose his views. I explained to him that it was a personal weakness on his part which he could overcome with self-analysis. I advised him not to fight his urge but to consciously try to be indifferent. “Tomorrow,” I suggested, “when you go to your office and they start the political arguments, you will most probably have the desire to join in. At that moment try to remind yourself that you must avoid losing your self-control. The elemental inside you will urge you to intervene in order to show your knowledge and wisdom. Listen carefully, judge. and weigh their arguments, but say nothing.” “But isn’t it better to just leave?” he asked.

“No,” I replied, “you will not gain anything by running away.” ‘Naturally it was hard for him to practice this exercise. At first he could not resist the temptation. But at the end of the day he evaluated his actions. After three or four attempts he mastered his problem. One day he came to me and thanked me for helping him win back his friends.

‘With indifference you extract the power of elementals and you neutralize them. Either they get dissolved or they float in the etheric sphere where they may be picked up by others.
When we advance spiritually we become conscious of our responsibility for the fall of our fellow man as a result of elementals left over by us in the etheric world. Do you understand now why Christ said, “Do not judge lest you be judged”? Because you shall be judged by your own inner self. You created these elementals regardless of whether you have transcended the condition that led you to the creation of them.

I urge you not to be concerned about how others judge or think of you. Fear only the judgment of your own inner self. Someone asked me once whether I was afraid of God. I said no, I love God and I try to be worthy of His love. What about, he said, the people around you? No, I said, I don’t judge them and I don’t care about their opinions of me. Aren’t you afraid of anything? I am afraid of myself because I cannot deceive myself. When I sit down to meditate and practice my analysis, my inner self will ask, “What did you say? What did you do? What should you have done and you failed to do?” When we begin to listen to our inner self we are on the right path. We will no longer create evil elementals which will be floating in the etheric spheres and tormenting those around us. The Researcher of Truth must reach a point where he does not create elementals of desires-thoughts but, rather, elementals consciously constructed that are under his full control. When they leave him he will be able to govern and guide them regardless of how far away they may bee Such elementals of thoughts-desires are more concrete, more effective, and of a greater duration. For this reason we are more responsible for them. The person of benevolent thoughts must be certain that what he constructs receive the blessings of the higher spheres.

No prayer has ever remained unanswered and no curse has remained unpunished. ‘What happens,’ someone in the audience asked, ‘when we send a good thought to a person who is not receptive?’ ‘As I have pointed out to you before, it is the Law that whatever elemental we project will eventually return to us. In the case of evil elementals, whether subconsciously or consciously constructed, the punishment is inherent in them. When they return they acquire more strength and extension of life. The person against whom we project an evil elemental will be affected only to the extent that he, too, vibrates on the same frequency as ourselves. Otherwise it will hit his aura and bounce back to us seven times its original force. These are the types of elementals that a Researcher of Truth must learn how not to create. Jesus called them “spirits mute and deaf” that come out of the human being and, finding no rest, return to the individual, dragging along more of the same kind.

In a similar manner, when we project a benign elemental and the person is not prepared to receive it as yet, it will hit his aura and come back to us. But in such a case the elemental will leave its mark on his aura. That power will be there to benefit that person at any moment when he will be ready to vibrate analogously. Therefore, you must always be aware that good is never lost. And if you love someone who you think does not deserve it, do not give up or despair. Continue sending him elementals of love and goodness. Sooner or later they will have an effect on him either in this or in succeeding incarnations.

Remember what Christ said, “Love thine enemies.” Bear in mind that those we consider as our enemies are in reality persons suffering from ignorance. For us the word “enemy” does not exist. We shall not call the mindless our enemies. Keep in mind that when we love those who love us it is understandable and very human. But when we love those who hate us, it is a divine condition. It uplifts us spiritually. When we hurt those who love us it is satanic. Unfortunately there is too much of that in our society today.’ ‘Does one generate elementals while asleep?’ someone asked.

‘Yes, of course. When we say a person is asleep, it is only his gross material body that is sleeping. But as a self-conscious personality he is using Mind in the form of sentiments and abstract thoughts. He mixes them up and subconsciously creates and projects elementals. Let me add that when a man is asleep he is more under the influence of his own elementals than when he is awake and preoccupied with the affairs of everyday life. You will notice that many things you desire and that you forget while awake will come to you either just before you fall asleep or during sleep. It is when the individual is in these receptive states that he is under the bombardment of his own self, of the elementals he has constructed earlier. It is fOr this reason that one of the promises of the Researcher of Truth is that every night before falling asleep one must spend a few minutes in self-analysis. It is exactly at that point when one begins to open up and become receptive to his own thought and desires. It won’t be difficult to dredge them up from the pool of memory. It is at that moment when it is easier for him to study, know and master them. By learning how to use Mine properly we will discover who we really are and we will begin to distinguish our true selves from the conditions around us that keep us enslaved.
…
‘You must understand that when you create elementals of thoughts-desires you are handling divine substance. You are not dealing with clay. The acquisition of such powers is a great responsibility. We should experiment but we must be wise enough to create elementals of thoughts-desires which will benefit our fellow man, not to satisfy egotistical desires. Our aim is to become psychotherapists, not black sorcerers. May the love of the Most Beloved One be with you and in your homes and with the whole world.’

[Blessed]

B.W.

That sounds terrible. I feel ashamed for complaining about my life now. I would never want to do that for a job. It's too much.

How do you stop this from happening at each church the first place? Does it start with the Pastor or declining attendance?

[Philip]

There needs to be a balance in how we view evil.

The Bible clearly teaches the evil, dark forces and evil spiritual entities exist. We ignore them at our own peril. And so we need to avoid the gateways that allow these evil forces to suck us into their vortex. So we need to stay away from the occult, the paranormal, and drugs and mind-altering substances, as these can easily skew our rational thinking and common sense, and easily ensnare us into dependencies, addictions, deceptions, distractions, and ultimately destruction and potential death - which are their goals! These are the collective strategies of the demonic.

The balance comes in knowing that evil has very little power in comparison to that of God. In fact, evil only has power loaned to it from God, as it forces us to see the contrast between being under His love and protection versus that of evil forces. It also helps us to see we need God and often forces us to choose between Him and evil. Note what Joseph said in Genesis of the evil plans of his brothers' evil actions toward him: "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today." Judas was inspired by Satan to try to stop Jesus - but God used his evil intentions to lead to the cross and to accomplish the salvation of all believers across time! So, God controls and greatly limits the actions and abilities of evil and demons, uses them for His GOOD and eternal outcomes and purposes - even though we can't always see or know what or how He intends this, as He temporarily allows evil upon the earth. And Scripture says evil will only be allowed to flourish until God's use of it is accomplished and He permanently destroys all evil entities and sends them to their doom..

So, the demonic is subject to God's control. It has very little power in relation to the power of God. And God says we can always escape it if we will turn to Him when under attack by evil spiritual forces. Evil cannot see the future; it cannot read our minds - it has only limited powers of deception, although these can be very effective upon those not walking with God. Of course, it is very clever and can HEAR us and see our every action. It is very clever to guess at what we are likely thinking. Evil has NO control over Christians we don't either give it or court it through the fore-mentioned gateways. So, part of the balance is to be wary, don't court or fear evil, as it has no ultimate power for those depending upon and trusting God. Christians often act as if evil powers are on a level with God - forgetting completely that God has total control over it.

So, I recognize evil supernatural beings exist, am aware of their intentions, avoid gateways to their influence or control, stay on guard/remain wary, but I don't obsess or stay focused on them, as fearing and being obsessed with the demonic is another way of giving it some measure control over me - which it obviously desires. I think these things provide proper balance for a Christian. However, non-Christians are far more vulnerable to threats from evil forces they are totally unaware of, thus making them far more suceptible to th ir ability to deceive.

[PaulSacramento]

If there were no other gods, then comments such as God being above all other gods, would be meaningless.
If there were no other gods then why would Jesus call Satan the "god of this world"?

Look, it doesn't matter what WE think NOW because the writers and audiences of the times, they KNEW there were other gods. They knew that evil spirits influence us, that rebellious divine beings try to manipulate us.

To be honest, I don't know when and where this reluctance to accept the supernatural elements of the bible ( other than God).

I think it could be with the misunderstanding of monotheism VS polytheism or perhaps lack of understanding of what the term "god" means and meant.

[Philip]

Let's be clear, there ARE evil spiritual entities pretending to be gods which encourage people's belief in them and evil practices through their deception and counterfeiting signs - staples that snare those involved in occultic practices, as people so involved DO experience various demonic-produced signs. Baal of the Old Testament is a classic example of a false/non-existing god for whom belief in was sustained and encouraged by REAL demons, their powers, and counterfeiting signs. But there is only one actual God - the God of the Bible.

[thatkidakayoungguy]

Let's be clear, there ARE evil spiritual entities pretending to be gods which encourage people's belief in them and evil practices through their deception and counterfeiting signs - staples that snare those involved in occultic practices, as people so involved DO experience various demonic-produced signs. Baal of the Old Testament is a classic example of a false/non-existing god for whom belief in was sustained and encouraged by REAL demons, their powers, and counterfeiting signs. But there is only one actual God - the God of the Bible.

Right, and sometimes the term god means a higher power, not the Supreme Being. I can't recall where but Paul uses this for Satan, who is clearly an angel.
In fact god has been used for kings and queens, which is a little weird to us but to ancient people it made sense as they considered the royal bloodline to be semi divine.

[Philip]

Yes, kid - 2 Corinthians 4:4: "In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

That capital "G" in Scripture always denotes Yahweh! And little "g" gods to be something else, per whatever the context.

[B. W.]

B.W.

That sounds terrible. I feel ashamed for complaining about my life now. I would never want to do that for a job. It's too much.

How do you stop this from happening at each church the first place? Does it start with the Pastor or declining attendance?

A Big thanks to everyone who is posting and all responses so far. This thread is for all to discuss and think and reason and sort these issues out.

First issue deals with the effect Positivism has and is having on the modern Church of this era.

Google dictionary defines Positivism as this:

pos·i·tiv·ism

1.a philosophical system that holds that every rationally justifiable assertion can be scientifically verified or is capable of logical or mathematical proof, and that therefore rejects metaphysics and theism.

2. the theory that laws are to be understood as social rules, valid because they are enacted by authority or derive logically from existing decisions, and that ideal or moral considerations (e.g., that a rule is unjust) should not limit the scope or operation of the law.

Websters dictionary adds

1.: a theory that theology and metaphysics are earlier imperfect modes of knowledge and that positive knowledge is based on natural phenomena and their properties and relations as verified by the empirical sciences

Logical positivism

1. a 20th century philosophical movement holding that all meaningful statements are either analytic or conclusively verifiable or at least confirmable by observation and experiment and that metaphysical theories are therefore strictly meaningless — called also logical empiricism

Got Questions gives us this:
https://www.gotquestions.org/positivism.html

What is positivism?
positivism Question: "What is positivism? What is a Christian view of positivism?"

Answer: Positivism is a term for a specific philosophical claim: that we can only be sure of those things directly perceived by the senses. Under this restriction, only purely empirical categories such as science can be considered to offer truth. According to the positivist, all other categories, such as religion, are by definition impossible to actually know and therefore not meaningfully “true.” The most overt form of this approach is logical positivism, which goes further, claiming that only statements that are empirical or analytic (purely logical) are meaningful. In this way, both positivism and logical positivism seek to “define away” religion and faith by starting from an assumption that such things are either unknowable or insensible.

A famous example of the principle of positivism is found in a popular quote from David Hume, a father of the Enlightenment and of modern positivist thinking. Hume stated, “If we take in our hand any volume—of divinity or school of metaphysics, for instance—let us ask, Does it contain any abstract reasoning concerning quality or number? No. Does it contain any experimental reasoning concerning matter of fact and existence? No. Commit it then to the flames, for it can contain nothing but sophistry and illusion.”

Hume’s quote summarizes the general attitude of positivism: there is no knowable truth in any statement that is not entirely empirical. As it turns out, this remark from Hume also demonstrates the greatest fatal flaw of positivism. Hume’s comment, as quoted above, contains neither quality nor number and has no experimental reasoning. In short, if Hume’s statement is true, then it is itself “nothing but sophistry and illusion.” In literal terms, this means that one has to make a special exception for positivism in order to be a positivist.

In the end, positivism and logical positivism are essentially just word games. They apply prejudice, not reason, in an effort to defend a preconceived conclusion rather than to explain or reveal any actual truth. By their own reasoning, positivist statements are incoherent. At the same time, positivist reasoning is extremely brittle; the positivist approach is so unreasonably narrow that tweaking the definition to avoid self-contradiction results in abandoning the idea entirely.

From a Christian standpoint, positivism fails to describe either reality or human experience. There are some truths that human beings cannot naturally perceive (Hebrews 11:3). To simply reject what we, as limited beings, cannot see, taste, or touch is an unreasonable limitation. We are called upon to use good thinking (Colossians 2:8) and careful examination (2 Corinthians 13:5), not to arrogantly assume that whatever we cannot perceive cannot exist (Job 38:1–4).

While at first glance is appears Christianity rejects Positivism but in reality - the same format of Positivism is used to deny the supernatural element of Christianity. How- by use of this phrase - "if it ain't in the bible - reject it, can't be used."

Well, the bible is filled with the supernatural elements of God displayed.

Christian Positivism says - the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased for today... Cessationism

Others forms of Christian Positivism state:

1-That sense Jesus defeated the devil - there is not such thing as demonic oppression. No reason for spiritual warfare. Jesus did it all so we do nothing. All can be explained by Psychology and the result of human sin nature.

2-Genesis 6 involves human beings alone and not fallen angels. nothing to see, move along

3-Grace verses works insomuch as the subject that God's grace erases the need for inner and outward change in a Christians life. You cannot get in a word edgewise with folks bent to react that God giving grace to the humble and that God gives grace as the means to change our lives out of darkness into his light is error despite the word of God teaching this.

4-Everything is reduced to endless proof texting as empirical evidence of one's Point of View whether it be predestination or free will etc and so forth like trained parrots. The result is endless bible wars.

5-the neglect to explain the that the inspired writers of both OT and NT were addresses a cosmic war against a hierarchy of fallen angels and demons who are revealed in the bible by name: Molech, Astoreth, Dagon, etc and so forth. That these decree to humanity fates or acceptable behavior to be enacted out in daily living. In fact much of bible prophecy meanings are simply lost due to the mindset that the pagan religions and their false gods were harmless myths of no importance.

Therefore, when christian kids go to college and learn that the ancient Israelite borrowed from ancient Sumerian god myths that predate the bible is how Christianity came to being - that En-ki or Enlil is actually the God of the bible - our kids have no training how to combat this at all - thus fall away from the faith.

5-lack of training on what the Occult is - new age movement - how it works and that it works - false doctrines of demons - there is next to nothing said on these matters from the pulpit and people are ill equipped to deal with it

This is due to the methodological use of proof texting as empirical proof that the supernatural elements of the bible are less needed today than it was way back in the day because we are more superior in knowledge and understanding than the ignorant ancient folks were starting form the 1700 AD back to the BC eras.

Now to get back to "Blessed's" comment:

There is hope for the modern church and there are a few places that are getting it and waking up to the reality of the bible's supernatural world view. There will be disagreements between brethren but there will also come a unity of the faith as well where we view each other as God's people, saved by God's Grace, and changed by that Grace supernaturally. So there is hope.

Midst this hope is a supernatural enemy arrayed to thwart and hinder God moving amongst His own people on earth. That mock the ways of God by means of counterfeits because very little is truthfully taught on how to recognize the counterfeits. However, this is cured by knowing the basic workings of the hierarchy of the supernatural enemy upon humanity and what to do about it as God's special people called to:

"But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light..." 1Pe 2:9 NKJV

Proclaim ... hmmm midst the darkness that proclaims their fates to humanity... interesting...
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[B. W.]

Here is an example of the supernatural element rarely taught in the modern Church

Joshus 10:12-13, "And it happened, as they fled before Israel and were on the descent of Beth (House) Horon (two caverns), that the LORD cast down large hailstones from heaven on them as far as Azekah (dug over/buried), and they died. There were more who died from the hailstones than the children of Israel killed with the sword. 12 Then Joshua spoke to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites (dweller of the Hieghts) before the children of Israel (prevailers with God), and he said in the sight of Israel (Prevailers): "Sun, stand still over Gibeon (Hills-heights); And Moon, in the Valley of Aijalon (Gazelles)." 13 So the sun stood still, And the moon stopped, Till the people had revenge Upon their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day."

Most read that and yawn and say we heard that, move along nothing more here other than endless debate if the earth stood still or the entire universe - that is all. move along.

This is what is missing:

Deut 4:19 says a profound truth do not worship the host of heaven - sun and moon stars. With this in mind, we see God using giant hailstones to wallop the mortal enemies. Why Hailstones?

These Canaanite peoples had a religion and worshiped the rebellious fallen angels of Gen 6:1-12. Two were storm gods. On of the two was confined in the abyss and the other allowed to take that one''s place and use storms against the enemies of Baal pantheon.

God hurling giant hailstones is God mocking the rebellious angels and destroying their people on earth - note Psalms 2:4 and Psalms 59:8 ...

These peoples faith was in the Baal strom gods (Fallen Angels- so God did what - sent huge hailstones upon them. Wow! Bible reading becomes fun now.

Next, why did God make the sun stand still over Gibeon (Hills); And Moon, in the Valley of Aijalon (Gazelles)?

Answer, the people affected worshiped the Moon god and the Sun god of the Canaanites known in Mesopotamian cosmology as Nanna and Utu. Utu in Greek is known as Apollo - the world's Messiah known to us in book of Revelation as the Antichrist figure. The job of the Moon god was to war against the enemies of the leading Baal, decree empowerment to kings to become gods instrument to bring forth a one world ruler - the devils messiah to rull the world. Nanna taught submission to this new order upon all or else in order to bring forth the Sun god to bring new enlightenment to control mankind.

Therefore, God was saying what to these fallen angels? Who is really in charge here - correct? So God made the sun and moon stand still and the human followers of the moon and sun were killed and for good reason too. These were not nice people but totally depraved to wanton evil - cannibalism, human -child sacrifice, perverse sexually deviance, etc and etc.

So why did God make the sun stand still over Gibeon (Hills or cities of the hills/heights); And Moon, in the Valley of Aijalon (Gazelles)?

Moon god decreed the kingship to rule in fortified high walled cities and moved like a gazelle to carry out the rebellion against God as a warrior.

If you know the story line - From the line, or hierarchy, of the moon god comes the sun god (Ruler of the heights, hubris) who slays the dragon with an arrow or spear. In the enemies of God eyes the dragon to say is God himself. These people came out under the power of the sun and moon deity to slay God's people according to their prophecies...

So what there is more in the bible than arguments over if God made the earth stand still or the universe or if this quote from the Book of Jasher should even be referenced in the bible at all.

God indeed mocked the fallen angels and still does so today - aren't you glad you are on God's side?

What you have here is God taking out the several of leading principalities mentioned in Eph 6:12...

Blessings...
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[B. W.]

Here is a question:

Who is Paul talking about here:

"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places." Eph 6:12

Are these real beings and if so, who are they?
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[Philip]

Let me ask you a question, B.W. Knowing there is a demonic opposition behind the evil across the world is one thing. But why obsess over it as if it has a great power over you as a Christian? Because it does NOT! Unless you open yourself up to it by involving yourself in certain gateways. The demonic's power is greatly limited by God and are under His authority. I think it is healthy and hugely important to know that it exists, take it seriously, that we're constantly tempted. But to become obsessed with it - no, I think that's not good - as if it can control Christians. Of course, ALL non-Christians are very vulnerable to these hidden forces because they don't realize they are being influenced by such. But our far-greater focus should be on influencing people to pursue Christ. And very few are going to be influenced by Christians constantly pointing to the hidden boogeymen behind the scenes. But the Christians who don't take the demonic's presence and threat seriously - they are largely Scripturally ignorant. So, again, there's a healthy balance: Be aware, take it seriously, but don't get obsessed over it. And particularly don't assign or obsess over meanings to things that can't be perfectly known. Far better to productively spend our time attempting to influence people to learn what they CAN know and understand about Christ, history, and God's love for them.

[B. W.]

Let me ask you a question, B.W. Knowing there is a demonic opposition behind the evil across the world is one thing. But why obsess over it as if it has a great power over you as a Christian? Because it does NOT! Unless you open yourself up to it by involving yourself in certain gateways. The demonic's power is greatly limited by God and are under His authority. I think it is healthy and hugely important to know that it exists, take it seriously, that we're constantly tempted. But to become obsessed with it - no, I think that's not good - as if it can control Christians. Of course, ALL non-Christians are very vulnerable to these hidden forces because they don't realize they are being influenced by such.

Because of these verses - are they actually real or not?

1 Pe 5:8-9 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world. NKJV

Next verse below - if what you say is correct then I ask is forgiveness is moot too because we should not pay any attention to Satan and his many devises that take advantage of people by making people think he is powerless. And has no bearing or effect in today's' modern world?

2Co 2:10 Now whom you forgive anything, I also forgive. For if indeed I have forgiven anything, I have forgiven that one for your sakes in the presence of Christ, 11 lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices.

In the verse below: If Satan hindered Paul, then how is he hindering you, or I, or Christians today if he is a no account figment that only people unnecessarily obsesses over?

1Th 2:18,Therefore we wanted to come to you—even I, Paul, time and again—but Satan hindered us.

The verse below states a principle with many applications: The point being is that folks do turn after satan... Guess that is not serious but rather a big Joke - Right? Pay no attention - move along…

1Ti 5:15 For some have already turned aside after Satan..

Yes, maybe if we ignore the devil and his minions they will just go away and all will be well. My isn’t the church world so well balanced that it is losing members at an alarming rate?

With that why not ignore abuse, neglect, shootings, broken homes, and the damage of abandonment has of young kids who are now adults who grew up in shattered homes or homes where they were brow beaten, ignored, discounted as worthless. How about fatherless homes - guess those affects we should ignore as well to - right?

Maybe, Phil since the majority of the modern Church world ignores the supernatural and that there is a real spiritual war by entities that want to kill us and get as many folks into the Lake of Fire as possible is why we see the mass depravity, hate, sexual abuse, suicides, crime, murder, such blatant evil at work to overthrow God's order on this earth, both political and the war against goodness, morality, decency - purpose in life.

So, if folks want to hide their heads in the collective sands - then is it any wonder then - that this is one small part of quenching the Holy Spirit’s work as well as why we so little actual change, revival, or moves of God happening today? - Note I Thess 5:19, Eph 4:30 -

Christians can be controlled and most certainly be deceived by the devil. In fact, one of the best control methods comes by discounting what the devil and his minions can do in the life of a Christian to have them ignore his world has any effect at all in their lives.

This often happens under the disguise of: "God won't let that happen to Christians. He never ever let that happen - so go ahead and enjoy life. Get drunk as a hoot owl, hurt your children and spouse, hang out with heathens and become corrupted, and go ahead and sin and forget the battles with it - because nothing happens without God's approval…”

One thing we forget is this: Responsibility - God's sovereign will is to teach his people responsibility. How to live responsible before God and each other. Responsible to God's word he spoke in Gen 2:15 which of God's words God himself spoke in Isa 55:11, Isa 46:10, and Eph 1:9-23 he is faithful to perform and keep.

You see, we human beings are free moral agents and as such, God must teach his own people how to be responsible. Good parents teach their own kids how to live and be responsible. We should ask – how much of the modern church world says no this bible truth?

Therefore, how can we tend and keep-protect what God has for us unless by the process of learning how to live responsible before God and each other by learning during this journey in this mortal life through trials, testing’s, failings, blessings, etc and etc?

How can we actually learn what Heb 10:24 means if we don’t take any responsibility by ignoring spiritual warfare and the pain in the lives of people around us?

So yes, the Lord lets the devil roam about for a reason that is way beyond what our pea brains can think of and the devil and his minions have a heyday in his war against God and humanity that proves who is a person more responsible to follow. I am so thankful the Lord came and shed abroad in our Hearts the Holy Spirit and not leave us orphans to live beaten up in this life and learn responsibility of what it means to be Christians.

So yes, to what you said here:

But our far-greater focus should be on influencing people to pursue Christ. And very few are going to be influenced by Christians constantly pointing to the hidden boogeymen behind the scenes. But the Christians who don't take the demonic's presence and threat seriously - they are largely Scripturally ignorant.

Yes, spiritually ignorant are the majority of Christians who pay no attention to the breakdown of society, sociability, family, civility, discourse/dialog, the rise of moral depravity, the effects of abuse, addictions, suicide... etc and etc... then it hits home one day. They run to the church and the leaders there who say basically – don’t worry about… gets some counseling and medication...

So, again, there's a healthy balance: Be aware, take it seriously, but don't get obsessed over it. And particularly don't assign or obsess over meanings to things that can't be perfectly known. Far better to productively spend our time attempting to influence people to learn what they CAN know and understand about Christ, history, and God's love for them.

Yes, indeed there is a healthy balance. But Phil I have to deal with broken Christians who cannot get help in their own churches. Maybe you don’t, or others don't obsess under the devise of being balanced which proves how so little of the modern church goers actually "influence people to learn what they CAN know and understand about Christ, history, and God's love for them."

Maybe that is why Christianity is declining in the USA and in the western world as well too. Evil is real. It is deceptive and loves to lull people asleep.

Let’s see, I recently had one individual call me from the Portland area who heard me on radio who decided to leave his church because it was practicing Christian Yoga. He wanted to know if there was a church there that I could recommend. Only thing I could recommend was Bible Study Fellowship International which meets there. He attended. Maybe the only place where one actually learns about Christ these days.

Another person contacted me and resigned from the Free Masons. He was a 5th degree rite. He is beginning his journey to learn how to be responsible before God and each other.

Others which are too numerous to list likewise finding freedom in Christ and being set free from their broken hearts, captivity to repeating cycles of sins, and living in their personal prison - finding the how much Jesus loves them on their journey with Christ. That they can indeed fight the spiritual foe of darkness.

Through a group of folks God tossed together, he used me as well as them to influence First Nations People and now there is a real move of God on the Reservations. In the North central South Dakota. Just this year alone over 600 folks have come to the Lord. They know how to fight a real spiritual foe – if only our urban balances folks would – how knows?

Phil, I hate bragging and boasting, you all forgive me on this, but I was informed through an agency that, on the low end, the Lord has used me to bring at least 25,000 people to Himself so far and at the high end maybe 125,000 thousand. I can’t save anyone for Jesus, God does, he just uses me to do this. So, I ask How many have you influenced?

For my influence, even here, I am unjustly mocked on this forum so to all reading this - are you actually living responsible be God and each other and suffering mocking, belittling even from your own companions and actually experience persecution in various forms in this world?

You, reading this – I am sure you also have influenced some folks on earth for Jesus and praise God for that! Amen!

But before you inject that I obsess about evil and its effects better get up and take a good hard look at the world around you and learn during your own Christian life journey what it really means to live responsibly before God and mankind.

Isa 61:1 "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me, Because the LORD has anointed Me To preach good tidings to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives, And the opening of the prison to those who are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, And the day of vengeance of our God; To comfort all who mourn, 3 To console those who mourn in Zion, To give them beauty for ashes, The oil of joy for mourning, The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; That they may be called trees of righteousness, The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified." 4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins, They shall raise up the former desolations, And they shall repair the ruined cities, The desolations of many generations. NKJV

Are you Born Again and has not the Lord given you the Same Holy Spirit that raise Jesus from the Dead (Romans 8:11) - what are you doing with this inheritance?

All Bible quote from he NKJV
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[Philip]

B.W., I totally agree with your assessment of the threat and ignorance of many in the church - but there needs to be a balanced view that doesn't keep us in fear as if we are helpless and have no defenses, or that elevates Satan and demons anything near the power of God or our ability to harness, through faith, His protection against them.

B.W: Because of these verses - are they actually real or not?

Of course they are real.

1 Pe 5:8-9 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world. NKJV

Do we resist Satan by being obsessed with Him, or rather by being aware and "steadfast in the faith?" My point is, while certainly wary, we should have a greater focus on the Lord and staying faithful - part of which is not opening ourselves up to temptation or gateways that the demonic can exploit.

B.W.: Next verse below - if what you say is correct then I ask is forgiveness is moot too because we should not pay any attention to Satan and his many devises that take advantage of people by making people think he is powerless. And has no bearing or effect in today's' modern world?

Note that I didn't say we shouldn't pay attention, nor by any means do I downplay the threat.

2Co 2:10 Now whom you forgive anything, I also forgive. For if indeed I have forgiven anything, I have forgiven that one for your sakes in the presence of Christ, 11 lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Again - the protection is provided by a focus upon obedience to and faith in Christ - yet also with an awareness of the threat.

B.W.: In the verse below: If Satan hindered Paul, then how is he hindering you, or I, or Christians today if he is a no account figment that only people unnecessarily obsesses over?

My point is that people elevate the threat of Satan as if his power is on a significant power over the believer remaining focused on Christ - he does NOT! Constantly stoking fear of the demonic isn't healthy! However, encouraging awareness and great RESPECT over the dangers and the reality of the threat IS important. And that threat, while always there, diminishes as one centers their life in obedience to Christ.

B.W.: The verse below states a principle with many applications: The point being is that folks do turn after satan... Guess that is not serious but rather a big Joke - Right? Pay no attention - move along…

I would never say it's a big joke - nor did I ever say such a thing.

B.W.: Maybe, Phil since the majority of the modern Church world ignores the supernatural and that there is a real spiritual war by entities that want to kill us and get as many folks into the Lake of Fire as possible...

Of course that's true - the demonic and its strategies and great threat certainly exist. So, I think such efforts at education need balance - people SHOULD know the great threat but shouldn't live in fear of it - as they need to further understand that the demonic has no power over God, and the key to our protection? Scripture says, "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."(James 4:7)

B.W.: Christians can be controlled and most certainly be deceived by the devil. In fact, one of the best control methods comes by discounting what the devil and his minions can do in the life of a Christian to have them ignore his world has any effect at all in their lives.

And so you just showed the ONLY way Christian can be controlled by the devil - that they ignore the advice of James 4:7, and ignore or are ignorant as to the threat. Otherwise, the devil cannot control a believer, as if one is defenseless against his attacks. But whenever a believer submits to doorways and temptations, he opens himself up to often-terrible repercussions. So, a believer CAN be oppressed and threatened by the devil - but control is GIVEN by the believer - as the devil can clearly be overcome.

Ephesians 6:11-12 (NASB): "11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you WILL be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil."

So, to summarize: Yes, the threat of Satan and his demonic host ARE quite real, exceptionally dangerous, and ever eager to bring us to destruction - and yes, the Church and all persons ignore this at their own peril. But while that threat can oppress and threaten us, there IS a defense in turning to the Lord when under attack, and He gives us the ability to resist Him. So, we are not helpless and God is infinitely more powerful than Satan. He cannot read minds or know the future. His power is under God's authority and control.

So, demons have dangerous power but also key vulnerabilities:

They unwittingly serve God’s purposes (Judg. 9:23).
They were terrified of Christ and the Gospel (Matt. 8:29; Mark 1:24; James 2:19).
They obeyed Christ (Matt. 8:32).
They obeyed the Twelve (Matt. 10:1–8) and the Seventy-Two (Luke 10:17–20).
They cannot separate believers in Christ from the love of God (Rom. 8:38).
They can be restrained by the Holy Spirit (2 Thess. 2:6; 1 John 4:4).
They have been judged already by God (2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6) and will be again in the future (Rev. 20:10).

Notice Christians given authority over the demonic:

The apostles were given authority in Christ's name over demons: "10 And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out... (Matthew 1)

In Luke 10, the 72 had authority over the demonic as well: "17 The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!” 18 And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you.

[Blessed]

I think the issue is the church doesn't mention good vs. evil humanities place in eternity and hell enough anymore, in general. It's modern doctrine and prosperity gospel, rainbow flowers and pink pony's. There is little talk of hell, in general.