N.Y. adopts law allowing abortion up to nine months

[RickD]

The "Keep abortion safe" argument is absolutely ridiculous.

In all successful abortions, at least one human being dies. How is that safe?

[Nils]

Some years ago I debated with a person that had published a video on the net where he argued against abortion. He is a teacher in theology and philosophy and a smart guy so I thought it was interesting to debate his view. He answered that in a debate with an atheist the religious arguments aren’t important, there are other, secular, arguments against abortion. We debated them for a while but I didn’t find them convincing. However, when I looked at his religious arguments I noticed that he only had three references to the Bible and I found them rather weak (I don’t remember them in detail). So I ask you, what are your arguments and where in the Bible do you find them?
Do you find them conclusive and why?

Note that I want other arguments than the simplified “thou shalt not kill” that assumes that abortion is equivalent to killing. My question is: Where does the Bible say so?

Nils

[Stu]

Some years ago I debated with a person that had published a video on the net where he argued against abortion. He is a teacher in theology and philosophy and a smart guy so I thought it was interesting to debate his view. He answered that in a debate with an atheist the religious arguments aren’t important, there are other, secular, arguments against abortion. We debated them for a while but I didn’t find them convincing. However, when I looked at his religious arguments I noticed that he only had three references to the Bible and I found them rather weak (I don’t remember them in detail). So I ask you, what are your arguments and where in the Bible do you find them?
Do you find them conclusive and why?

Note that I want other arguments than the simplified “thou shalt not kill” that assumes that abortion is equivalent to killing. My question is: Where does the Bible say so?

Nils

What's your opinion on abortion right up to 9 months?

[Kurieuo]

It is important for people to understand what it is they're advocating. Not all abortions are the same.

Curious Nils, where would you draw the line?

3rd trimester abortions - https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=r5Af8vIym2o (NY allows)
2nd trimester abortions - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgw4X7Dw_3k
1st trimester abortions - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5THDmys8z30

[melanie]

I think the nuances of such laws are relevant. Do I think third trimester abortions are ethical, no I don't. The mere suggestion is confronting. But when I read the parameters of the bill, from a medical perspective I understood a little more.

"when the mother’s life was in danger or the fetus was no longer viable."
What that means is the fetus is dead. No one could legitimately hold it against anyone medically or ethically for aborting a dead child. Secondly if the mother's life is at risk then that's between herself, her partner, her baby, her other children and God.
If it were me, in that position I'm not sure what I would do. I will say a mothers instinct to protect her children is greater than any force of nature. I trust that any woman placed in that awful predicament for health reasons would make the best decision for her family.

[RickD]

I think the nuances of such laws are relevant. Do I think third trimester abortions are ethical, no I don't. The mere suggestion is confronting. But when I read the parameters of the bill, from a medical perspective I understood a little more.

"when the mother’s life was in danger or the fetus was no longer viable."
What that means is the fetus is dead. No one could legitimately hold it against anyone medically or ethically for aborting a dead child. Secondly if the mother's life is at risk then that's between herself, her partner, her baby, her other children and God.
If it were me, in that position I'm not sure what I would do. I will say a mothers instinct to protect her children is greater than any force of nature. I trust that any woman placed in that awful predicament for health reasons would make the best decision for her family.

Except for the fact that what you said, isn't what the bill says, at all.

[Stu]

I think the nuances of such laws are relevant. Do I think third trimester abortions are ethical, no I don't. The mere suggestion is confronting. But when I read the parameters of the bill, from a medical perspective I understood a little more.

"when the mother’s life was in danger or the fetus was no longer viable."
What that means is the fetus is dead. No one could legitimately hold it against anyone medically or ethically for aborting a dead child. Secondly if the mother's life is at risk then that's between herself, her partner, her baby, her other children and God.
If it were me, in that position I'm not sure what I would do. I will say a mothers instinct to protect her children is greater than any force of nature. I trust that any woman placed in that awful predicament for health reasons would make the best decision for her family.

The bill also says for mental reasons you can abort at nine months.

[RickD]

I think the nuances of such laws are relevant. Do I think third trimester abortions are ethical, no I don't. The mere suggestion is confronting. But when I read the parameters of the bill, from a medical perspective I understood a little more.

"when the mother’s life was in danger or the fetus was no longer viable."
What that means is the fetus is dead. No one could legitimately hold it against anyone medically or ethically for aborting a dead child. Secondly if the mother's life is at risk then that's between herself, her partner, her baby, her other children and God.
If it were me, in that position I'm not sure what I would do. I will say a mothers instinct to protect her children is greater than any force of nature. I trust that any woman placed in that awful predicament for health reasons would make the best decision for her family.

The bill also says for mental reasons you can abort at nine months.

And that's the problem with the bill. Mental health? Who decides the mental health of the mother? Does she? If she's having hormonal problems in her pregnancy, that cause her "mental health" problems, does the bill allow her to be able to decide legally, to have an abortion?

[Nils]

It is important for people to understand what it is they're advocating. Not all abortions are the same.

Curious Nils, where would you draw the line?

Where to draw the line is a compromise between setting the line as low as possible to limit the danger of relativizing the respect for life on one hand and as high as possible to permit the families or individuals that don’t want a child to be able to interrupt the pregnancy on the other. In Sweden abortion is free up to the 18th week and after special permission up to the 22nd week. Any time after the 18th week The Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare may permit abortion if there are particularly important reasons for instance if the life of the mother is in danger. I find those rules reasonable and I don’t see any need of free abortion up to 9 months.

There are similar limits in many European countries.

3rd trimester abortions - https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=r5Af8vIym2o (NY allows)
2nd trimester abortions - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgw4X7Dw_3k
1st trimester abortions - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5THDmys8z30

As I understand it most abortions are done medically not by a surgical procedure. What I found is that the risk of abortion e.g. not being able to get pregnant again is very low, 0.1%.

But what’s your answer to the question in my last post?

Nils

[RickD]

Some years ago I debated with a person that had published a video on the net where he argued against abortion. He is a teacher in theology and philosophy and a smart guy so I thought it was interesting to debate his view. He answered that in a debate with an atheist the religious arguments aren’t important, there are other, secular, arguments against abortion. We debated them for a while but I didn’t find them convincing. However, when I looked at his religious arguments I noticed that he only had three references to the Bible and I found them rather weak (I don’t remember them in detail). So I ask you, what are your arguments and where in the Bible do you find them?
Do you find them conclusive and why?

Note that I want other arguments than the simplified “thou shalt not kill” that assumes that abortion is equivalent to killing. My question is: Where does the Bible say so?

Nils

What's your opinion on abortion right up to 9 months?

Why would anyone use a religious argument from the Bible, about abortion, with someone who doesn't believe in the authority of the Bible?

[Kurieuo]

It is important for people to understand what it is they're advocating. Not all abortions are the same.

Curious Nils, where would you draw the line?

Where to draw the line is a compromise between setting the line as low as possible to limit the danger of relativizing the respect for life on one hand and as high as possible to permit the families or individuals that don’t want a child to be able to interrupt the pregnancy on the other. In Sweden abortion is free up to the 18th week and after special permission up to the 22nd week. Any time after the 18th week The Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare may permit abortion if there are particularly important reasons for instance if the life of the mother is in danger. I find those rules reasonable and I don’t see any need of free abortion up to 9 months.

There are similar limits in many European countries.

3rd trimester abortions - https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=r5Af8vIym2o (NY allows)
2nd trimester abortions - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgw4X7Dw_3k
1st trimester abortions - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5THDmys8z30

As I understand it most abortions are done medically not by a surgical procedure. What I found is that the risk of abortion e.g. not being able to get pregnant again is very low, 0.1%.

But what’s your answer to the question in my last post?

Nils

I listed the procedures done in my last post for 1st, 2nd and 3rd trimesters as many will use the term abortion this and abortion that, heck in Australia we had philosophers in ethics calling infanticide post-birth abortions. So abortion itself is just an ambiguous guise as I see for what actually takes place.

The videos I linked to above were put together by a doctor who has performed 100s of abortions. They illustrate what takes place during an abortion based upon how far along the pregnancy is. Watch them (there are no real life images), and it is in reference to them I wish to know where you might draw the line.

Re: Scripture, your question, it's a lie perpetuated by pro-aborts that only Christians believe abortion is wrong because the Bible tells them so. Rather the strongest arguments against killing an unborn baby are found in biology and science. Check out www.secularprolife.org

[Stu]

Some years ago I debated with a person that had published a video on the net where he argued against abortion. He is a teacher in theology and philosophy and a smart guy so I thought it was interesting to debate his view. He answered that in a debate with an atheist the religious arguments aren’t important, there are other, secular, arguments against abortion. We debated them for a while but I didn’t find them convincing. However, when I looked at his religious arguments I noticed that he only had three references to the Bible and I found them rather weak (I don’t remember them in detail). So I ask you, what are your arguments and where in the Bible do you find them?
Do you find them conclusive and why?

Note that I want other arguments than the simplified “thou shalt not kill” that assumes that abortion is equivalent to killing. My question is: Where does the Bible say so?

Nils

What's your opinion on abortion right up to 9 months?

Why would anyone use a religious argument from the Bible, about abortion, with someone who doesn't believe in the authority of the Bible?

I'm not. It's murder at nine months once the baby leaves the womb. Yet it's "abortion" at nine months if the baby is still in the womb. It is not logical. Wanted his take on it coming from an atheist/agnostics perspective.

[RickD]

Some years ago I debated with a person that had published a video on the net where he argued against abortion. He is a teacher in theology and philosophy and a smart guy so I thought it was interesting to debate his view. He answered that in a debate with an atheist the religious arguments aren’t important, there are other, secular, arguments against abortion. We debated them for a while but I didn’t find them convincing. However, when I looked at his religious arguments I noticed that he only had three references to the Bible and I found them rather weak (I don’t remember them in detail). So I ask you, what are your arguments and where in the Bible do you find them?
Do you find them conclusive and why?

Note that I want other arguments than the simplified “thou shalt not kill” that assumes that abortion is equivalent to killing. My question is: Where does the Bible say so?

Nils

What's your opinion on abortion right up to 9 months?

Why would anyone use a religious argument from the Bible, about abortion, with someone who doesn't believe in the authority of the Bible?

I'm not. It's murder at nine months once the baby leaves the womb. Yet it's "abortion" at nine months if the baby is still in the womb. It is not logical. Wanted his take on it coming from an atheist/agnostics perspective.

Stu,

I was referring to the question by Nils. He was looking for a biblical argument against abortion. Sorry for the confusion.

[Stu]

Some years ago I debated with a person that had published a video on the net where he argued against abortion. He is a teacher in theology and philosophy and a smart guy so I thought it was interesting to debate his view. He answered that in a debate with an atheist the religious arguments aren’t important, there are other, secular, arguments against abortion. We debated them for a while but I didn’t find them convincing. However, when I looked at his religious arguments I noticed that he only had three references to the Bible and I found them rather weak (I don’t remember them in detail). So I ask you, what are your arguments and where in the Bible do you find them?
Do you find them conclusive and why?

Note that I want other arguments than the simplified “thou shalt not kill” that assumes that abortion is equivalent to killing. My question is: Where does the Bible say so?

Nils

What's your opinion on abortion right up to 9 months?

Why would anyone use a religious argument from the Bible, about abortion, with someone who doesn't believe in the authority of the Bible?

I'm not. It's murder at nine months once the baby leaves the womb. Yet it's "abortion" at nine months if the baby is still in the womb. It is not logical. Wanted his take on it coming from an atheist/agnostics perspective.

Stu,

I was referring to the question by Nils. He was looking for a biblical argument against abortion. Sorry for the confusion.

Ah, no worries.

[Stu]

Some years ago I debated with a person that had published a video on the net where he argued against abortion. He is a teacher in theology and philosophy and a smart guy so I thought it was interesting to debate his view. He answered that in a debate with an atheist the religious arguments aren’t important, there are other, secular, arguments against abortion. We debated them for a while but I didn’t find them convincing. However, when I looked at his religious arguments I noticed that he only had three references to the Bible and I found them rather weak (I don’t remember them in detail). So I ask you, what are your arguments and where in the Bible do you find them?
Do you find them conclusive and why?

Note that I want other arguments than the simplified “thou shalt not kill” that assumes that abortion is equivalent to killing. My question is: Where does the Bible say so?

Nils

Here is one:

Jeremiah 1:4-6 New International Version (NIV)
The Call of Jeremiah
4 The word of the Lord came to me, saying,
5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
6 “Alas, Sovereign Lord,” I said, “I do not know how to speak; I am too young.”

Thou shalt not kill... if this is not a small human being then I don't know what is.
12 week old baby