Top Ten Reasons I'm An Atheist

[Morny]

Lol morny, Just like you, I value science a great deal (after all, I am a scientist). Unlike you, however, I know well the limitations and boundaries of science as a tool.

Nice to hear of your science background. As per my immediately previous post to Philip, please explain specifically how I don't know how science works. I use science to test measurable evidence against a theory claiming to have natural effects.

Or could you, like Philip, possibly be misunderstanding my point?

And perhaps relevant is that I asked you earlier: "Give an example of your testable immaterial claim that science has overlooked. What is the evidence supporting that claim?" I haven't seen a response.

[Rationality and logic] are not scientific principles [...]

I said both "are part of the scientific method." Maybe for clarity I should have said that both "take part in the scientific method"?

[PaulSacramento]

Intelligence and consciousness are human abilities.

Where did they come from?

[Kenny]

Intelligence and consciousness are human abilities.

Where did they come from?

We probably just evolved that way.

[PaulSacramento]

Intelligence and consciousness are human abilities.

Where did they come from?

We probably just evolved that way.

Sure, BUT, as discussed before, something can't come from nothing so the properties for intelligence and consciousness MUST have been there already, yes?

[Byblos]

Lol morny, Just like you, I value science a great deal (after all, I am a scientist). Unlike you, however, I know well the limitations and boundaries of science as a tool.

Nice to hear of your science background. As per my immediately previous post to Philip, please explain specifically how I don't know how science works. I use science to test measurable evidence against a theory claiming to have natural effects.

First I never said you didn't know how science works. I've read enough of your posts to know you are well versed in several scientific disciplines. What I did say is that you do not seem to know the limitations of science, more specifically, where it is inapplicable.

Or could you, like Philip, possibly be misunderstanding my point?

It's possible, that's why we're having a conversation, so we can clear up misunderstandings. As it is equally possible you're misunderstanding me. I tend to think it's the latter.

And perhaps relevant is that I asked you earlier: "Give an example of your testable immaterial claim that science has overlooked. What is the evidence supporting that claim?" I haven't seen a response.

That's because you're focusing on one narrow subject, i.e. the effects of the immaterial (prayers) on the material world. Although I think there are many studies out there including those that cover NDEs, most of these scientific experiments on prayers are inconclusive at best, granted. I have no qualms about that.

What I am trying to tell is that the subject of the effects of the immaterial on the material world is a much broader subject than just prayers. In fact it goes all the back to the dawn of philosophy from the Greeks to the Scholastics, right through Descartes and his mind/body dualism disaster, all the way up to today. And at the root of the subject of the immaterial is the subject of God's existence. When I objected to the use of the silly 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence' it was in that broader context, not just as related to prayer efficacy. And when it comes to the subject of God's existence, science is (ought to be, rather) silent on the subject because it is simply the wrong tool for the job (much like a block of Swiss cheese is the wrong tool to hammer in a nail).

For what it's worth, that's the point I was trying to make.

[Kenny]

Intelligence and consciousness are human abilities.

Where did they come from?

We probably just evolved that way.

Sure, BUT, as discussed before, something can't come from nothing so the properties for intelligence and consciousness MUST have been there already, yes?

Judging from what I know about reality, that would be correct.

[Philip]

Paul: Sure, BUT, as discussed before, something can't come from nothing so the properties for intelligence and consciousness MUST have been there already, yes?

Ken: Judging from what I know about reality, that would be correct.

So the properties of intelligence and consciousness came from NOTHING???!!! Neither one of those would have a home TO reside, work or function, without a living being with a brain to harbor and harness them. Otherwise there is zero awareness or any ability to have or utilize intelligence. Not to mention, intelligence has a genetic component. Consciousness and intelligence are byproducts / capabilities requiring a living being designed to use such inherent abilities.

[Morny]

[...] you're focusing on one narrow subject, i.e. the effects of the immaterial (prayers) on the material world. [...] most of these scientific experiments on prayers are inconclusive at best, granted. I have no qualms about that.

I'm giving the efficacy of prayer as just one example that many people give of the immaterial having measurable effects on the material world. Hence, science is applicable. And I'm glad that you seem to agree with me on what those scientific studies show.

However, if someone claims the efficacy of prayers has material effects on patients, but God makes sure that no scientific study ever notices any results contrary to voluminous medical recovery statistics, then science is not applicable. I suspect that you also agree with my previous sentence, yes?

[...] when it comes to the subject of God's existence, science is (ought to be, rather) silent on the subject because it is simply the wrong tool for the job [...]

I cannot yet say whether science is applicable to your claim of God's existence, because you haven't specified what measurable effects God has on the natural world. If those measurable effects do not conform to the laws of science, then science is definitely applicable - the scientific test results might support your claim or not. Otherwise, science is not applicable to your claim. We agree, yes?

I'm curious to know where you still think I "do not seem to know the limitations of science, more specifically, where it is inapplicable."

I think there are many studies out there including those that cover NDEs [...]

Wait, are you saying claims of NDEs have measurable evidence of the supernatural?! If so, science is applicable!

[Kenny]

Paul: Sure, BUT, as discussed before, something can't come from nothing so the properties for intelligence and consciousness MUST have been there already, yes?

Ken: Judging from what I know about reality, that would be correct.

So the properties of intelligence and consciousness came from NOTHING???!!!

Wait hold up; weren’t we just talking about the possibility of cells always existing, with the properties of intelligence and consciousness? Where did we get this “coming from nothing”?

Neither one of those would have a home TO reside, work or function, without a living being with a brain to harbor and harness them.

But the living being is not a part of the scenario; if we are going to put a living being into the mix, why start with cells? Why not just have the living being magically create people complete? Why have the Singularity, Big Bang, evolution, or anything else when it is easier to just say “that living being did it”???

Otherwise there is zero awareness or any ability to have or utilize intelligence. Not to mention, intelligence has a genetic component.

Well there’s zero awareness of a living being harboring and harnessing intelligence and consciousness either; but that never stopped anyone from believing it. I think we're back to square one.

[PaulSacramento]

Intelligence and consciousness are human abilities.

Where did they come from?

We probably just evolved that way.

Sure, BUT, as discussed before, something can't come from nothing so the properties for intelligence and consciousness MUST have been there already, yes?

Judging from what I know about reality, that would be correct.

So it means that what makes up intelligence and consciousness must have always existed? yes?

[Kenny]

Intelligence and consciousness are human abilities.

Where did they come from?

We probably just evolved that way.

Sure, BUT, as discussed before, something can't come from nothing so the properties for intelligence and consciousness MUST have been there already, yes?

Judging from what I know about reality, that would be correct.

So it means that what makes up intelligence and consciousness must have always existed? yes?

Correct.

[PaulSacramento]

We probably just evolved that way.

Sure, BUT, as discussed before, something can't come from nothing so the properties for intelligence and consciousness MUST have been there already, yes?

Judging from what I know about reality, that would be correct.

So it means that what makes up intelligence and consciousness must have always existed? yes?

Correct.

But they are NOT material?

[Kenny]

Sure, BUT, as discussed before, something can't come from nothing so the properties for intelligence and consciousness MUST have been there already, yes?

Judging from what I know about reality, that would be correct.

So it means that what makes up intelligence and consciousness must have always existed? yes?

Correct.

But they are NOT material?

No more than the color blue. IOW they are a description of material.

[PaulSacramento]

Judging from what I know about reality, that would be correct.

So it means that what makes up intelligence and consciousness must have always existed? yes?

Correct.

But they are NOT material?

No more than the color blue. IOW they are a description of material.

If consciousness and intelligence are immaterial, as we have agreed on, how can their properties by description of the material ??

[Philip]

Consciousness and intelligence, while not material, cannot exist without a material being built to have the capacity for such things. And that means such beings need to first be created and designed - as neither the designs of the material being or their non-material capacity for self and otherwise awareness and thoughts could simply exist. And thus their non-material abilities (consciousness, intelligence, thoughts) would not otherwise exist.