Information - Natural or Intelligence?

[Kurieuo]

A series of questions.

Do you believe there is information in the natural world? (i.e., whether found in matter, chemistry, biology, etc)

If yes, doesn't information require intelligence?

If not, why not?

[Philip]

To pursue, gather, assess or act upon information requires an intelligence.

[PaulSacramento]

Quite appropriate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDSpLBNQk5I

[PaulSacramento]

Information, information, information

[Kurieuo]

I just noticed in the other thread re: reasons I'm an Atheist, that it was being said non-intelligence can't bring forth intelligence. Putting it that way, makes things feel a little unclear though, like it needs to be unpacked and explained "why not?"

The real issue I think to overcome though, is an information problem found in the natural order. If an intelligences didn't exist, then please explain why there is this information found in the natural world. How did it form? In our experience, we truly only know one source for information, and that is intelligent beings.

The linked-to discussion between Shapiro and Meyer covers much of what I was alluding to in my opening post -- as well as various common responses to the information problem and why they don't hold up.

[PaulSacramento]

I just noticed in the other thread re: reasons I'm an Atheist, that it was being said non-intelligence can't bring forth intelligence. Putting it that way, makes things feel a little unclear though, like it needs to be unpacked and explained "why not?"

The real issue I think to overcome though, is an information problem found in the natural order. If an intelligences didn't exist, then please explain why there is this information found in the natural world. How did it form? In our experience, we truly only know one source for information, and that is intelligent beings.

The linked-to discussion between Shapiro and Meyer covers much of what I was alluding to in my opening post -- as well as various common responses to the information problem and why they don't hold up.

The circular argument is amazing to see.
Intelligence is, obviously, immaterial and as such, not part of the material world BUT a materialist can't accept that since ALL is part of th ematerial world.
So then, intelligence becomes a description of something, of what? well, intelligence !
LOL !

The properties of intelligence must have existed materially, of course, yet, intelligence is not a material thing.

Ouch.

[Philip]

You guys are preaching to the choir, here! Maybe you're being too logical for some? Oh, well, some will never let inconvenient facts get in the way of their determination to embrace non-theism!

[Kenny]

I just noticed in the other thread re: reasons I'm an Atheist, that it was being said non-intelligence can't bring forth intelligence. Putting it that way, makes things feel a little unclear though, like it needs to be unpacked and explained "why not?"

The real issue I think to overcome though, is an information problem found in the natural order. If an intelligences didn't exist, then please explain why there is this information found in the natural world. How did it form? In our experience, we truly only know one source for information, and that is intelligent beings.

The linked-to discussion between Shapiro and Meyer covers much of what I was alluding to in my opening post -- as well as various common responses to the information problem and why they don't hold up.

The circular argument is amazing to see.
Intelligence is, obviously, immaterial and as such, not part of the material world BUT a materialist can't accept that since ALL is part of th ematerial world.

I don’t know how many times I will need to keep repeating this; but as I said before, I have never said everything was a part of the material world. Are thoughts, ideas, or beliefs a part of the material world? Of course not! Neither is intelligence. Intelligence is a label we attach to something that IS a part of the material world. Like thoughts, ideas, or beliefs; intelligence only exists in the context of things that do exist in the material world. Intelligence does not have an actual existence by itself.

So then, intelligence becomes a description of something, of what? well, intelligence !
LOL !

No; intelligence is a label/description of something that is a part of the material world.

The properties of intelligence must have existed materially, of course, yet, intelligence is not a material thing.

Ouch.

Really? So what are these material properties of intelligence?

[PaulSacramento]

That is what I am asking YOU Kenny.
That is what we are all asking you.

[Kenny]

That is what I am asking YOU Kenny.
That is what we are all asking you.

I'm not the one claiming intelligence existed materially

[PaulSacramento]

That is what I am asking YOU Kenny.
That is what we are all asking you.

I'm not the one claiming intelligence existed materially

You stated that intelligence is a description of a material thing, yes?

[1over137]

Well, Scott,
Could you please define for me what 'information' is?

Without that I cannot even start to think about all that.

[Kenny]

That is what I am asking YOU Kenny.
That is what we are all asking you.

I'm not the one claiming intelligence existed materially

You stated that intelligence is a description of a material thing, yes?

Yes! Intelligence is one of many descriptions.

[PaulSacramento]

That is what I am asking YOU Kenny.
That is what we are all asking you.

I'm not the one claiming intelligence existed materially

You stated that intelligence is a description of a material thing, yes?

Yes! Intelligence is one of many descriptions.

What MATERIAL thing is it describing?

[Kenny]

That is what I am asking YOU Kenny.
That is what we are all asking you.

I'm not the one claiming intelligence existed materially

You stated that intelligence is a description of a material thing, yes?

Yes! Intelligence is one of many descriptions.

What MATERIAL thing is it describing?

People.