So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

[RickD]

DBowling wrote:
Look back at my post... what percentage of the Democratic field did I say I would consider voting for... I listed 2 names and a maybe... none of which are on far left of the Democratic Party.

If you were consistent, the percent should be zero, because none are conservative.

And as we already noted... neither is Trump

Sure. But your reason that you said you weren't voting for Trump, was because he wasn't a real conservative. Don't you remember this conversation? You voted for Egg McMuffin, because he was a true conservative. He had absolutely zero chance of being president, but at least he was a conservative. Now you're saying you'd vote for certain democrats, even though none are conservative.

You don't see the inconsistency in that?

[DBowling]

My biggest concern is his repeated attacks on ...for lack of a better term... "Bible believing Christians".
I have strong personal beliefs regarding the truth, nature, and authority of the Bible.
And his misrepresentation of and attacks on my personal religious beliefs would make it very difficult for me to vote for him.

Which misrepresentations and attacks? A lot of what I've seen him do is push back against the notion that his sexuality is inherently sinful and should be suppressed and that his marriage is invalid. Them's fightin' words, no?

And I will push back against the notion that my religious views are somehow illegitimate and hateful because I happen to believe what the Bible teaches about sin, and God's design for marriage and the family.

That said... hate against anyone is wrong!
We are all sinners...
Jesus hung out with sinners...
and most importantly, Jesus gave his life to save sinners.

In this country Pete has the right to hold whatever religious views he wishes.
And so do I.
And if Pete is going to publicly attack my religious views then I have the right to decide not to vote for him.

[RickD]

My biggest concern is his repeated attacks on ...for lack of a better term... "Bible believing Christians".
I have strong personal beliefs regarding the truth, nature, and authority of the Bible.
And his misrepresentation of and attacks on my personal religious beliefs would make it very difficult for me to vote for him.

Which misrepresentations and attacks? A lot of what I've seen him do is push back against the notion that his sexuality is inherently sinful and should be suppressed and that his marriage is invalid. Them's fightin' words, no?

And I will push back against the notion that my religious views are somehow illegitimate and hateful because I happen to believe what the Bible teaches about sin, and God's design for marriage and the family.

That said... hate against anyone is wrong!
We are all sinners...
Jesus hung out with sinners...
and most importantly, Jesus gave his life to save sinners.

In this country Pete has the right to hold whatever religious views he wishes.
And so do I.
And if Pete is going to publicly attack my religious views then I have the right to decide not to vote for him.

But surely he's better than that immoral jerk in the White House now, right? He's a practicing, unrepentant homosexual, and is pro-late term abortion, but at least he's not a serial liar, right?

[DBowling]

DBowling wrote:
Look back at my post... what percentage of the Democratic field did I say I would consider voting for... I listed 2 names and a maybe... none of which are on far left of the Democratic Party.

If you were consistent, the percent should be zero, because none are conservative.

And as we already noted... neither is Trump

Sure. But your reason that you said you weren't voting for Trump, was because he wasn't a real conservative. Don't you remember this conversation? You voted for Egg McMuffin, because he was a true conservative. He had absolutely zero chance of being president, but at least he was a conservative. Now you're saying you'd vote for certain democrats, even though none are conservative.

You don't see the inconsistency in that?

no... I really don't
There is no true conservative to vote for, so that criteria is immediately off the table.

So I look at other criteria...
truthfulness, fundamental morality, respect for the laws of our country, etc
as well as the distance (and there will be distance) between my political views and the views of the candidate in question.
That is what I will be looking at as we approach 2020.

There were no conservatives in 2016 either.
And both candidates were morally repugnant.
So I was unable to vote for either.
So I found a candidate who I could support both morally and politically.

[DBowling]

My biggest concern is his repeated attacks on ...for lack of a better term... "Bible believing Christians".
I have strong personal beliefs regarding the truth, nature, and authority of the Bible.
And his misrepresentation of and attacks on my personal religious beliefs would make it very difficult for me to vote for him.

Which misrepresentations and attacks? A lot of what I've seen him do is push back against the notion that his sexuality is inherently sinful and should be suppressed and that his marriage is invalid. Them's fightin' words, no?

And I will push back against the notion that my religious views are somehow illegitimate and hateful because I happen to believe what the Bible teaches about sin, and God's design for marriage and the family.

That said... hate against anyone is wrong!
We are all sinners...
Jesus hung out with sinners...
and most importantly, Jesus gave his life to save sinners.

In this country Pete has the right to hold whatever religious views he wishes.
And so do I.
And if Pete is going to publicly attack my religious views then I have the right to decide not to vote for him.

But surely he's better than that immoral jerk in the White House now, right? He's a practicing, unrepentant homosexual, and is pro-late term abortion, but at least he's not a serial liar, right?

Hey... if you want to vote for Pete, that is your right.
I've already explained to ed why I won't.

[RickD]

DBowling wrote:
Look back at my post... what percentage of the Democratic field did I say I would consider voting for... I listed 2 names and a maybe... none of which are on far left of the Democratic Party.

If you were consistent, the percent should be zero, because none are conservative.

And as we already noted... neither is Trump

Sure. But your reason that you said you weren't voting for Trump, was because he wasn't a real conservative. Don't you remember this conversation? You voted for Egg McMuffin, because he was a true conservative. He had absolutely zero chance of being president, but at least he was a conservative. Now you're saying you'd vote for certain democrats, even though none are conservative.

You don't see the inconsistency in that?

no... I really don't
There is no true conservative to vote for, so that criteria is immediately off the table.

So I look at other criteria...
truthfulness, fundamental morality, respect for the laws of our country, etc
as well as the distance (and there will be distance) between my political views and the views of the candidate in question.
That is what I will be looking at as we approach 2020.

There were no conservatives in 2016 either.
And both candidates were morally repugnant.
So I was unable to vote for either.
So I found a candidate who I could support both morally and politically.

Looking for truthfulness, in a politician running for president of the US of A, that actually has a chance to win?



When you stop living in fantasy land, come back to the real world, vote for someone who actually has a chance to win, has some things you can live with, and stop looking for Christ at the ballot box.

Did you actually say that you are looking for truthfulness from a politician running for president?



I finally found someone who actually DID fall off the turnip truck!

[Kurieuo]

DB, I'm sure you'll start liking Trump if/when US start bombing Iran. I can't imagine you see much wrong with his moves in the Middle Eastern. Wars have also always been a great way for a POTUS to drum up support in an upcoming election. As much as presidents get criticised a few years after, it seems Americans on both sides love them at the time, seeing the US flex it muscles.

[Philip]

DB, I would have thought, on the abortion issue alone - at least as compared to Hillary - that a conservative Christian would have voted for Trump, as he was far more pro-life than Hillary, and he said he desired to appoint court nominees that are pro-life. How is that not worth voting for?

[abelcainsbrother]

My biggest concern is his repeated attacks on ...for lack of a better term... "Bible believing Christians".
I have strong personal beliefs regarding the truth, nature, and authority of the Bible.
And his misrepresentation of and attacks on my personal religious beliefs would make it very difficult for me to vote for him.

Which misrepresentations and attacks? A lot of what I've seen him do is push back against the notion that his sexuality is inherently sinful and should be suppressed and that his marriage is invalid. Them's fightin' words, no?

You people still don't understand the problem.And because you don't you think Christians want to do what you do and support.You see the days of you liberals running to the government when it comes to issues like same sex marriages and bypassing the people and going to the government to have your beliefs,morality,etc forced on to the rest of America against its will are just about over.

You see same sex marriage is a issue for the people to decide NOT THE GOVERNMENT and it is unconstitutional what you liberals have done. But see you have this fear that Christians want to do to you what you have done to us and that is go to the government and have our beliefs,morality,etc forced on to you and the rest of America,or have some Christian theocracy when that is just not so.

It would be unconstitutional for Christians to do what you liberals have done and the majority of Christians HAVE NEVER desired to have some kind of Christian theocracy in America.We believe in and honor Freedom of Religion as long as you are not harming others or America based on your religious doctrine. It is you liberals that have done what you fear we would do. You see it is you and your liberal buddies who forced your beliefs,morality,etc on to us which is a theocracy.

But it is about to come to an end soon. You see these issues like same sex marriages,abortion,public transgender bathrooms,etc are State's rights issues and in the future you liberal are going to have to campaign in your State on these issues and put it to a vote for the people to decide. An example is medical marijuana. in the future you liberals are going to have to do what they did and get out in your State and campaign on these issues and convince the people they are good for society and then put it to a vote in your State and let the PEOPLE decide these issues. Because once Trump replaces RBG these things will be overturned and sent back to the States. We are all about the US Constitution us Trump supporters.

[DBowling]

DB, I would have thought, on the abortion issue alone - at least as compared to Hillary - that a conservative Christian would have voted for Trump, as he was far more pro-life than Hillary, and he said he desired to appoint court nominees that are pro-life. How is that not worth voting for?

I did vote for a person who was pro-life by conviction.

During the 2016 campaign, Trump couldn't even accurately articulate the pro-life position. When he tried to speak to the pro-life position he actually used the inaccurate caricature that pro-choice people use when describing the pro-life position.
Trump made the political calculation that if he claimed to be pro-life then he could lock in a solid fixed percentage of the electorate. To me, that's a pretty cynical manipulation of those who are actually pro-life from conviction.

Unlike those who voted for Trump, I voted for a person who actually understood and embraced the pro-life position.

[abelcainsbrother]

The State I now live in passed medical marijuana and the people voted it in and so there is nothing unconstitutional about it. So Ed if Same Sex marriages is important to you in the future you are going to have to get out in your State and campaign,debate,discuss with the people like the medical marijuana folks did and convince the people it would be good for them.I remember for years them debating this issue and I remember them getting signatures in order to put it on the ballet in our State and this is what you will have to do in order to have same sex marriages in your State.

[abelcainsbrother]

DB, I would have thought, on the abortion issue alone - at least as compared to Hillary - that a conservative Christian would have voted for Trump, as he was far more pro-life than Hillary, and he said he desired to appoint court nominees that are pro-life. How is that not worth voting for?

I did vote for a person who was pro-life by conviction.

During the 2016 campaign, Trump couldn't even accurately articulate the pro-life position. When he tried to speak to the pro-life position he actually used the inaccurate caricature that pro-choice people use when describing the pro-life position.
Trump made the political calculation that if he claimed to be pro-life then he could lock in a solid fixed percentage of the electorate. To me, that's a pretty cynical manipulation of those who are actually pro-life from conviction.

Unlike those who voted for Trump, I voted for a person who actually understood and embraced the pro-life position.

Well I realized years ago that voting for bible thumping Conservative pro-life candidates does not matter because in the end liberals will always get their way.So I had nothing to lose supporting Donald Trump who said he changed his mind after having a conversation with somebody in his family and is now pro-life.I took a chance on a baby Christian and I'm glad I did because he has delivered more than Republicans have for years and years when it comes to being pro-life and keeping his word. Them wolves in sheep clothing at election time I thought were bible believing Christians sure did'nt get the job done.
As a matter of fact before Trump I could not tell you about even one political issue conservatives won after all of the years of voting for bible believing pro-life Republicans that we could point to and say we won on that issue, but now I can point to many. So I'm glad I trusted Donald Trump as he is delivering.

[Kurieuo]

What does it mean to be pro-life DB?

On a scale of (lowest) 1-10 (highest) of social issues out there, how highly does this issue rank for you? For me, knowing that innocent baby lives are being massacred, it is an easy 10. More than any other issue, it defines how I vote and a great many other people.

For me, being "pro-life" (or more correctly put, against the wholesale massacre of innocent human life especially infants who have no say in their own demise), I couldn't care less about some "conviction" if such doesn't bring about positive change and results.

This also isn't just a conservative issue, it's a libertarian one -- and more and more people a realising this (at least in the US) -- such that you have both conservatives and more and more liberals crossing aisles to oppose killing unborn children.

So what are the actual results of Trump? For a president who doesn't understand he seems to have done a lot of positive changes. To quote a source I stumbled across (Oct 2018):

Here are just some of the pro-life accomplishments of the President and his Administration:

1. First of all, President Trump did the pro-life movement his greatest service by keeping Hillary Clinton out of the White House. Had she been elected, the extremism of abortion in America would have reached a fever pitch unlike anything we’ve seen before.

2. President Trump fulfilled his campaign pledge to only appoint pro-life Justices to the Supreme Court when he appointed Justice Neil Gorsuch – who is turning out to be magnificent. And now he has nominated another stellar judge for the Supreme Court, Brett Kavanaugh. Our President is also now filling more than 100 federal judge vacancies with strong pro-life judges. These judges will serve not just for years, but for decades!

3. President Trump has deprived the abortion industry of billions of dollars. He signed legislation to permit the states to defund Planned Parenthood of Title X family planning. He also issued an Executive Order to give states the option to withhold Medicaid and other federal money from organizations that perform abortions, including Planned Parenthood.

4. President Trump announced the Protect Life Rule, a proposed rule by the Department of Health and Human Services to cut taxpayer funding under the Title X program for any facility that performs abortions or refers clients to them, such as Planned Parenthood.

5. President Trump has re-instated and expanded the “Mexico City Policy.” His new policy ensures that our tax dollars are protected from funding the abortion industry overseas across ALL global health spending, not just family planning dollars. The Bush-era Mexico City Policy protected roughly $500 million in spending – the new Trump policy protects over $8.8 billion overseas aide from funding abortion. He also stopped funding the pro-abortion United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA).

6. The Trump Administration Department of Health & Human Services (HHS) issued a rule requiring that insurers specify to their customers whether the plan they are buying covers abortion. The administration also requested input on how to better enforce the limited abortion provisions contained in Obamacare.

7. The President created a new office in the federal government for Conscience and Religious Freedom, so that people who, for example, are being forced to participate in abortion, can have their rights vindicated more effectively.

8. President Trump has ended the Obama assault on the religious freedom of those employers who do not want to cover abortion-inducing drugs in the health insurance plans they offer their employees.

9. The President has made numerous appointments, across the federal administration, Image result for trumpImage result for trumpof strong pro-life advocates, starting with Vice-President Mike Pence. Most of the many others he has appointed do not make the headlines, but they are making and implementing policies and practices that advance the pro-life agenda. For instance, in the Department of Health and Human Services, the strategy memo makes it clear that “human beings” include babies in the womb.

10. The President has pushed hard for the Senate to pass additional pro-life legislation, like the Pain Capable Unborn Child Protection Act, as well as the full removal of funding from Planned Parenthood. He has promised to sign both bills.

There is much more that can be said, including how the President encourages the movement by speaking in plain terms about the abortion issue, rather than in vague abstractions. Moreover, the President and Vice-President have attended and spoken at various pro-life events (including the March for Life) and hosted receptions for pro-life leaders.

[abelcainsbrother]

There Are Wolves Among Us.
https://youtu.be/AMXgauV8LrM

[DBowling]

What does it mean to be pro-life DB?

On a scale of (lowest) 1-10 (highest) of social issues out there, how highly does this issue rank for you? For me, knowing that innocent baby lives are being massacred, it is an easy 10. More than any other issue, it defines how I vote and a great many other people.

For me, being "pro-life" (or more correctly put, against the wholesale massacre of innocent human life especially infants who have no say in their own demise), I couldn't care less about some "conviction" if such doesn't bring about positive change and results.

I think we can thank Mike Pence for many of the 'results' that you point out in your post.
And I have acknowledged many times that I think choosing Mike Pence as Vice President was a great decision by Trump.

So if Mike Pence is able to get some pro-life policies instituted by the Trump administration, does that mean that we overlook Trump's dishonest, immoral, lawless, and corrupt behavior.
Do we just turn a blind eye when the President of the United States violates the laws he's sworn to uphold and then uses the power of his office to interfere with law enforcement?
Is the President of the United beyond the reach of the law?

Trump has taken some actions that I fully support... as well as some that I oppose.

But just because Trump has taken some actions that I support, that does not mean I can support a lawless corrupt President who believes that he is above the law.

If the Republicans choose Mike Pence (who is truly pro-life) as their candidate in 2020 I will vote for him without hesitation.