So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

[RickD]

DB, I would have thought, on the abortion issue alone - at least as compared to Hillary - that a conservative Christian would have voted for Trump, as he was far more pro-life than Hillary, and he said he desired to appoint court nominees that are pro-life. How is that not worth voting for?

I did vote for a person who was pro-life by conviction.

DB: "Unlike those who voted for Trump, I voted for a person who actually understood and embraced the pro-life position."

But not in the election you didn't!

Oh yes I did!
I voted for Evan McMullin, a genuine Conservative who understood, embraced, and could accurately articulate the pro-life position.

And I voted for Mickey Mouse, a genuine Cartoon who understands, embraces, and can accurately articulate how to bring joy to millions of people!

[DBowling]

Let me address one of your other points

Now, even if Trump cynically was building his conservative base by turning pro-life, to me, that alone is enough to vote for him

Here's the issue for me...
Trump has demonstrated that he has no respect or regard for the laws of our country, and he is convinced that he can violate those laws with impunity. And if those laws or law enforcement threatens his power then he brazenly attacks law enforcement and obstructs law enforcement.
Trump has no regard for anyone other than himself. He sees other people as things to be manipulated for his purposes.
One striking example is his admission on a hot mic that his position of power lets him assault women without paying any consequences. And there are many other examples of his disdain for other people.
Truth and facts mean nothing to Trump. Trump cares about whatever narrative he happens to be selling at the moment (and that narrative can change at a moment's notice) and how many people he can suck into his narrative.
This is what immediately turned me off in 2016. He blatantly and repeatedly lies...over and over and over again... and he just doesn't care that people know he is lying. His primary concern is whether or not he can get his political base to believe whatever narrative he is perpetuating.

So when Trump claims to embrace a position that is dear to me (pro-life) as a cynical tool to lock in a political base to keep him in power, I cannot bring myself to ignore or become an apologist for his immoral, dishonest, and corrupt behavior as President.

I don't believe that a claim to be pro-life should protect the President of the United States from facing the legal and electoral consequences of his immoral, dishonest, and lawless behavior.
And as I've said earlier in this thread, I think it is imperative for the President to face the electoral consequences of his lawless and corrupt behavior in 2020.

We're talking about deeply held personal religious beliefs with Ed... Well, my deeply held personal religious beliefs will not let me support a dishonest, immoral, criminal for President of the United States. I couldn't do it in 2016 and unless Trump has a Damascus Road experience between now and next November, I don't see myself being able to do it in 2020 either.

[DBowling]

DB, I would have thought, on the abortion issue alone - at least as compared to Hillary - that a conservative Christian would have voted for Trump, as he was far more pro-life than Hillary, and he said he desired to appoint court nominees that are pro-life. How is that not worth voting for?

DB: "Unlike those who voted for Trump, I voted for a person who actually understood and embraced the pro-life position."

But not in the election you didn't!

Oh yes I did!
I voted for Evan McMullin, a genuine Conservative who understood, embraced, and could accurately articulate the pro-life position.

And I voted for Mickey Mouse, a genuine Cartoon who understands, embraces, and can accurately articulate how to bring joy to millions of people!

I was soooo wrong about you for soooo long...
I can actually understand and respect that choice!

[RickD]

DBowling wrote:
So when Trump claims to embrace a position that is dear to me (pro-life) as a cynical tool to lock in a political base to keep him in power, I cannot bring myself to ignore or become an apologist for his immoral, dishonest, and corrupt behavior as President.

Frankly, I couldn't care less if he's using it as a cynical tool. He's the first president that I can remember, who's done anything to actually try to slow down the number of innocent babies who are legally murdered in this country.

What conservative president has done more than Trump on this?

Bush talked the talk, but nothing got done. Reagan talked the talk, and did virtually nothing.

All presidential candidates say what they think will get them votes. But how many actually follow through?

[edwardmurphy]

If you truly care about preventing abortion vote for politicians who support comprehensive family planning, easy access to birth control, universal medical insurance, subsidised childcare, and evidence based sex education.

I sincerely don't understand how the anti-abortion crowd can claim to be pro life while actively working against most or all of those things. Life doesn't end at birth, people.

[DBowling]

DBowling wrote:
So when Trump claims to embrace a position that is dear to me (pro-life) as a cynical tool to lock in a political base to keep him in power, I cannot bring myself to ignore or become an apologist for his immoral, dishonest, and corrupt behavior as President.

Frankly, I couldn't care less if he's using it as a cynical tool. He's the first president that I can remember, who's done anything to actually try to slow down the number of innocent babies who are legally murdered in this country.

Do you care if the President violates the laws of our country?
Do you care if the President interferes with law enforcement in our country for his own personal purposes?
Do you care if the President boasts about assaulting women on a hot mic?
Do you care if the President chooses to align himself with a hostile foreign leader over members of his own administration?
Do you care if the President engages in fraud through his own 'charitable' foundation?
and the list goes on...

Does this lawless behavior have any bearing on the kind of political leader that you are willing to support?
Do you find this behavior even remotely acceptable for the leader of the free world?

As you and Phillip like to point out, Jesus will never be on the ballot.
But does that that mean followers of Jesus should embrace a dishonest, immoral, criminal whose life is antithetical to the teachings of Jesus?

What does that say to the testimony of the Evangelical community, when a world who so desperately needs Jesus sees followers of Jesus openly embracing an immoral, lying, criminal.
I bet Ed could provide some interesting perspective on that question.

[abelcainsbrother]

Let me address one of your other points

Now, even if Trump cynically was building his conservative base by turning pro-life, to me, that alone is enough to vote for him

Here's the issue for me...
Trump has demonstrated that he has no respect or regard for the laws of our country, and he is convinced that he can violate those laws with impunity. And if those laws or law enforcement threatens his power then he brazenly attacks law enforcement and obstructs law enforcement.
Trump has no regard for anyone other than himself. He sees other people as things to be manipulated for his purposes.
One striking example is his admission on a hot mic that his position of power lets him assault women without paying any consequences. And there are many other examples of his disdain for other people.
Truth and facts mean nothing to Trump. Trump cares about whatever narrative he happens to be selling at the moment (and that narrative can change at a moment's notice) and how many people he can suck into his narrative.
This is what immediately turned me off in 2016. He blatantly and repeatedly lies...over and over and over again... and he just doesn't care that people know he is lying. His primary concern is whether or not he can get his political base to believe whatever narrative he is perpetuating.

So when Trump claims to embrace a position that is dear to me (pro-life) as a cynical tool to lock in a political base to keep him in power, I cannot bring myself to ignore or become an apologist for his immoral, dishonest, and corrupt behavior as President.

I don't believe that a claim to be pro-life should protect the President of the United States from facing the legal and electoral consequences of his immoral, dishonest, and lawless behavior.
And as I've said earlier in this thread, I think it is imperative for the President to face the electoral consequences of his lawless and corrupt behavior in 2020.

We're talking about deeply held personal religious beliefs with Ed... Well, my deeply held personal religious beliefs will not let me support a dishonest, immoral, criminal for President of the United States. I couldn't do it in 2016 and unless Trump has a Damascus Road experience between now and next November, I don't see myself being able to do it in 2020 either.

There is no way you could believe this about Trump unless you bought into the left and the MSM and you should know better to believe them. The reason why I knew it was just not true about Donald Trump is because of his 40 year history in the public eye as an American businessman with no arrests and no serious scandals.It is funny when I hear you Trump bashers claim Trump lies because both Republicans and Democrats have been doing that for decades and yet you people totally ignore all of the lies they have been telling for decades,year after year,election after election.How come you don't focus on their lies and crimes because their crimes effect you far far more than Trump. If you Republican Trump bashers actually fought against the left like you do Donald Trump we would not be in such bad shape like we are.

The left and their failed policies in America over the decades totally destroyed the family structure in America and yet the Republicans sat back and allowed it.They removed prayer and bible reading from schools,allowed abortion,same sex marriages and now we have a new atheist movement like a self-fulfilling prophecy and yet you think Trump is the problem.I could go on and on but yet you ignore all of this and bash Donald Trump for lying.He makes them look like Saint, I'm telling you.

And all of them lies about how Trump's policies won't work are all proving to be wrong too like trade war with China. Even CNN has to admit that tariffs are hurting China a lot more than America and the Chinese will be forced back to the negotiating table or else will lose out on trade which will destroy their economy.We were saying this the whole time defending it at the time because we know America has the upper hand in negotiations with China. China did not buy our debt for years for nothing as they depend on a strong US economy so that we can buy their cheap Chinese products,but we have other countries we could buy them products from. But Trump was right about other countries ripping off America 40 years ago and he always said if he ever became President America would make a hell of a lot of money and he is proving to be correct.

[DBowling]

There is no way you could believe this about Trump unless you bought into the left and the MSM and you should know better to believe them.

... says the person who has been sucked into the fake news and lies of the alt-right...
Is she dead yet?...

[abelcainsbrother]

There is no way you could believe this about Trump unless you bought into the left and the MSM and you should know better to believe them.

... says the person who has been sucked into the fake news and lies of the alt-right...
Is she dead yet?...

I've already proved my self correct about a number of things I said I got from the alt-right media,you must not notice.And there is no evidence she is back to work on the Supreme Court still.You believing the MSM does not count as you know as a conservative.The guys in the alt-right showed that the pictures and videos the MSM showed were all a year old and not present pictures and videos so you';re just believing them claim it.
But have you forgot how the left smeared Reagan,Bush,etc? They wanted George W Bush tried for war crimes for believing our intelligence agencies who claimed Iraq had WMD's but yet now get angry at Trump for ignoring those same intelligence people who love war.The left are now pro-war LOL!

[Philip]

DB: Oh yes I did!
I voted for Evan McMullin, a genuine Conservative who understood, embraced, and could accurately articulate the pro-life position.

So basically, you threw your vote in the garbage can, as you knew it was the equivalent of non-vote. Good thing millions of others didn't do that, or we'd still be making Slick Willy jokes about the First Dude! Not to mention far more liberal picks for the courts. Not that it matters or anything.

[RickD]

1)comprehensive family planning
What exactly is it? Who is expected to pay for it?

2)easy access to birth control

Are you kidding? Access doesn't get much easier than every Walmart, CVS, and Walgreens, selling condoms.

3) universal medical insurance

How would universal medical insurance prevent abortion?

4) subsidized child care.

The govt should pay for people to take care of the children they produce, instead of people personally taking responsibility for their own actions?

5) evidence based sex education

The govt schools should teach their version of sexuality to our children?

No thanks, we've already seen where that's going.

I sincerely don't understand how the anti-abortion crowd can claim to be pro life while actively working against most or all of those things. Life doesn't end at birth, people.

You don't understand how people want others to take responsibility for their own actions, instead of relying on govt to pay for their choices?

I could've sworn that you said you're a libertarian. I must have you confused with someone else.

[RickD]

DBowling wrote:
So when Trump claims to embrace a position that is dear to me (pro-life) as a cynical tool to lock in a political base to keep him in power, I cannot bring myself to ignore or become an apologist for his immoral, dishonest, and corrupt behavior as President.

Frankly, I couldn't care less if he's using it as a cynical tool. He's the first president that I can remember, who's done anything to actually try to slow down the number of innocent babies who are legally murdered in this country.

Do you care if the President violates the laws of our country?
Do you care if the President interferes with law enforcement in our country for his own personal purposes?
Do you care if the President boasts about assaulting women on a hot mic?
Do you care if the President chooses to align himself with a hostile foreign leader over members of his own administration?
Do you care if the President engages in fraud through his own 'charitable' foundation?
and the list goes on...

Does this lawless behavior have any bearing on the kind of political leader that you are willing to support?
Do you find this behavior even remotely acceptable for the leader of the free world?

As you and Phillip like to point out, Jesus will never be on the ballot.
But does that that mean followers of Jesus should embrace a dishonest, immoral, criminal whose life is antithetical to the teachings of Jesus?

What does that say to the testimony of the Evangelical community, when a world who so desperately needs Jesus sees followers of Jesus openly embracing an immoral, lying, criminal.
I bet Ed could provide some interesting perspective on that question.

Every president is dishonest and corrupt, to a certain degree. Call me cynical, or call me a realist, but I expect that. So, when we get a president who actually does positive things to slow down child murder, then I'm in.

[Philip]

BTW, DB, no I do not think a president should get a pass. But we're talking about the lesser of two evils who might make some choices that protect life. But you are hung up on politics, who's more evil, who deserves consequences more over which candidate is far more likely to impact the sanctity of life. BTW, across Scripture, God has chosen plenty of problematic characters to do positive things. And I think when forced to, without other REALISTIC alternatives, we should too. What is the greater good? Voting for someone who most people don't even recognize the name of, or someone who would likely at least make an important positive impact on the sanctity of life. It's a no-brainer for me! I'm not responsible for the choices I've been given, but I can still distinguish between degrees of likely disaster! And if the protection of life of even one child is more likely than choices of a candidate that will just help continue the slaughter - well, again, that's an easy choice. Point is, was your vote about YOU and your noble pride, or was it about making a tough choice that could save lives. One just can't justify throwing away a vote like that. Sorry, I hate to be so critical, but that's how strongly I feel about the sanctity of life!

[abelcainsbrother]

If you truly care about preventing abortion vote for politicians who support comprehensive family planning, easy access to birth control, universal medical insurance, subsidised childcare, and evidence based sex education.

I sincerely don't understand how the anti-abortion crowd can claim to be pro life while actively working against most or all of those things. Life doesn't end at birth, people.

This is not really the issue.This is you trying to overlook the problem and trying to make Planned Parenthood look like a good institution for the things they do,while trying to make it seem like pro-life people are against helping people,which is just not so.The problem is and has always been how unconstitutional Roe vs Wade is and how it needs to be overturned. Abortion is not an issue for the government to decide for the people and yet it was forced onto America,whether or not we liked it or not.You are not only forcing us to go a long with abortion but making us pay for it too with our tax dollars.This would be like Christians using the government forcing you to be a Christian and taxing you for it too. You would'nt like it being forced onto to you. Yet because you like the like the abortion ruling you have no problem with how unconstitutional it is for the government to decide this issue and force everybody to go along with it.You support a liberal theocracy which is unconstitutional.

[DBowling]

Point is, was your vote about YOU and your noble pride, or was it about making a tough choice that could save lives. One just can't justify throwing away a vote like that. Sorry, I hate to be so critical, but that's how strongly I feel about the sanctity of life!

I appreciate your passion for life and I share that passion...
But to be blunt, your assertion about throwing away my vote, is basically an untrue strawman.

The point for me is really simple.
As a follower of Jesus, which candidate best represented my political and moral values (which included which candidate had the best pro-life credentials).
For me, it wasn't even close.
The two major candidates were immediately disqualified for me because of their political positions and deeply rooted corruption.

So I found a candidate who I could actually support both politically and morally (he wasn't perfect but he was easily better than the two main candidates).

Jesus doesn't ask me to follow what the world thinks.
Jesus doesn't ask me to make decisions based on who I think will or will not win (that's not in my hands anyway).
Jesus asks me to make decisions that are consistent with being his follower.
And sometimes those decisions will be misrepresented and unpopular.
But I was convinced that it would not be honoring to Jesus (which is what matters in the end) if I, as his follower, associated myself with politicians as fundamentally dishonest and corrupt as Clinton and Trump.

Do all Christians share my view?
Of course not.
And that's ok.
As this Discussion Board clearly shows, the Lord does not lead us all down the same path.
Prov 3:5-6